The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans

[alanarchae]

Maybe I'm wrong but there is a R1b L51 in the ukranian hunter gather rich Don Yamnaya samples. So maybe noyt a dead end. Also plenty of I L699 in the Dneper Don samples older than the one in the Volga

Not quite sure. Its a direct quote. I was searching (ctrl + f) for Albania and that came up, so I posted it recalling the earlier debate in the other thread.

Maybe this is different from what I am looking at.  It's Crihana Veche which is in southern Moldova near the border of Romania.

The grave was situated in the central-western sector of the mound, approximately 5.10 m west of the central landmark, at a depth of 0.83 m. The burial chamber was oval-shaped, oriented southeast-northwest, and displayed a step on the northwest, southwest and southeast sides. The step was positioned at a depth of 0.35 m from the level of the burial pit, with a 5 cm deepening towards the edge of the burial pit. The burial chamber was rectangular in shape with rounded corners, measuring 1.05 × 0.65 m. At the bottom level, the pit was displaced about 0.1 m under the northeast wall, thus forming a side niche. Several small bone fragments intensely pigmented with red ochre were discovered in the filling of the pit. The skeletal remains, extremely fragile (fragments of the parietals, temporals and diaphyses of the long bones of the limbs), were attributed to a sub-adult. Age at death: about 12- 14 months (infant). Anthropological sex: indeterminate. Molecular sex: male, Y-haplogroup R1b (R-L51). The burial is attributed to Yamnaya culture.

There is also a L51+ in Catacomb culture in Buzau County.

The deceased was laid in a hole dug deep into the natural ground, consisting of two distinct parts, the access shaft and the arched room (the catacomb proper), both partially destroyed; the first segment was preserved only to a depth of 0.20 m, while the catacomb, almost 1 m. Viewed from the side, Gr. 1 hole has two steps, the first (upper one) represented by the shaft and the second (lower one) marking the catacomb. The maximum depth of the shaft to the current preserved level, which is lower than the ancient level where the funeral hole was dug, was 1.35 m, while that of the catacomb in relation to the same reference point was 1.91 m. The shaft was 1.09 m in diameter, while the catacomb was 2.08 m long and 1.33 m wide. The base of the shaft was +0.56 m higher than the lower part of the catacomb. The arched room plan was bean-shaped. The walls were leaning towards the inside, except for a small portion next to the shaft which was inclined towards the outside. Its bottom was slightly inclined towards the access shaft. It was in this room, closer to the northern side, that the body was placed, lying on the back, head to W-SW 240°, lower limbs E-NE 60°. The left arm was stretched along the body, the right arm, bent at the elbow, was resting on the hip. Under and around the skeleton traces of brownish-red vegetal bedding 6-9 mm thick were identified. Anthropological determinations: female, 55-60 years old, but genetically determined to be a male; gracile skeleton; proto-European phenotypic traits; skeletal stature of approx. 165 cm; dental pathologies; torus auricularis; musculoskeletal stress markers; periosteal bone reactions; double fracture on the left ulna produced antemortem; unintentional reshaping of the cranial vault (flattening of the occipital). C14-AMS date: (DeA-5392) 4008 ± 42 BP/2834 - 2457 cal BC, 95.4% probability. The burial is attributed to the Catacomb culture. His Y-haplogroup was R1b (R-L51), mt-haplogroup K1b2b.

L51 also in Afanasievo and that a reservoir of L51 renamed in Ukraine after L151 moved north-west is strongly suggested but the late SE Polish CW who were L51xL151 and are thought to involve migrations linked to Middle Dnieper and Catacomb. 

Ftdna discover dates L51 to 4000BC (similar to Z2103), only 250 years after L23 (itself only 100 years older than M269.  That’s a period entering into the ‘steppe hiatus’. Though it’s surviving early branching is dated to around 3300BC when a noticeable burst of branching commences. 

I think it looks like there was an interesting period going on for L23 around 4000BC, likely in a late stredny stog derivative in the ‘steppe hiatus’ era. Some formative but not hugely demographically explosive phase. Then it’s undeniable that there is an uptick in L51 branching from 3300BC which undeniably coincides with early Yamnaya chronologically. Early enough to suggest its location was not at the western extremity of Yamnaya.  But imo it does look to me that it expanded with Yamnaya. It’s early presence in CW woukf seem to show it or a subset travelled to the western parts of Ukraine by 3000BC. When you combine that with its presence in Afanasievo and Catacomb, it really seems extremely likely it expanded with Yamnaya from a starting point in eastern ukraine/south Russian Euro-steppe from a location where it could expand both east and (predominantly) west. The fact Z2103 dominates the yamnaya Kurgans might simply be they were a ‘royal’ dynasty/clan in the 3300-3000BC era. 

M269, early L51 and early