Childebayeva et al. Bronze Age Northern Eurasian Genetics

[VladMC]

In general, not everything is so simple with Seimo-Turbino can be explained by Sintashta. Everything is more complicated there

[tгu]

Your models do not have Sintashta ROT003 XY R1a1a1-M417 R1a1a ca. 4150-3800 BP, because everyone else except ROT016 XY R1a1a1b-Z645 U5a1+@16192 2137-1919 calBC and probably ROT004 XY Q1b-M346 H1 2202-1983 calBC are not Sintashta by definition. Your sources cannot be used to model these samples, here are the correct sources.

See RUS_Sintashta_MLBA

[Jaska]

It is obvious to everyone that Netted ware in Europe is a continuation of Netted ware in Siberia, where this ceramics has been traditional since the Neolithic and comes from Baikal to the west. There are pots indistinguishable from European Netted ware on Baikal.

Can you give even one archaeologist who says so? "Waffle Ceramic" was made in the Baikal Region and in the northern coast of Fennoscandia--Kola Peninsula; in the latter region it is usually called the Imitated Textile Ceramic. So it is indeed distinguishable from the "real" textile ceramic. Besides, archaeological cultures are not defined merely by the use of textile impression or textile-like impression: there are several other parameters concerning these clay pots which together make a culture.

[Zelto]

CowboyHG
If afansievo or okunevo were the key, it have developed hundreds of years earlier

This line of reasoning doesn’t make any sense. You claimed that the "prerequisites" for the ST phenomenon (presumably developed metallurgy) did not exist in the Altai-Sayan region. However, that statement is categorically false.

CowboyHG
“Sintashta had more developed metalwork than Afansievo, and what’s the relevance of Chemurchek in the forest zone  ?”

I specified that I was talking about the “latter cultures” (i.e. Okunevo, Chemurchek and Elunino). All of which readily practiced tin-bronze casting, unlike Sintashta where arsenical-bronze forging (to a lesser extent casting) was common. I’m not sure why you singled out Afanasievo. Keep in mind that Sintashta and ST are largely synchronous. ST could not have formed as a result of Sintashta groups moving east. 

CowboyHG
“I didn’t imply it goes back to the Neolithic. I was relaying Yushkova  stating that C14 dates of textile decorations go as early as 2200 bc in ladoga region & Karelia . That’s not really “Neolithic”
But she does allow for a Chirkovo influences from the east”

tru
“There are no Textile ware in the Baltics in the Neolithic, these are all fairy tales. In Estonia, everything is simple there with the Sea Reservoir Effect ceramics, and that discovered vessel is made of sea clay and therefore it is aged a thousand years, it’s just that its radiocarbon dating was carried out back in the days when no one knew about the existence of the Reservoir Effect. The same most likely applies to unreliable rumors about Textile ware from the Mid-Volga, all Textile ware starts in the middle of the 2nd millennium BC.”

I was trying to explain the historiography, specifically regarding theories which derive Textile ware from the East Baltic. These are not my personal opinions on the matter. A direct relationship between Pit-Comb ware and Textile ware was suggested by many researchers in the mid-20th century (Bryusov, 1950, Foss, 1947, Loze, 1970, etc.), V.P. Tretyakov (1975) rejected this relationship, due to a chronological gap between the two cultural formations. Yushkova was not the first.

tru
“It is obvious to everyone that Netted ware in Europe is a continuation of Netted ware in Siberia, where this ceramics has been traditional since the Neolithic and comes from Baikal to the west. There are pots indistinguishable from European Netted ware on Baikal.”

‘Textile’ imprints are found on vessels from all over the world. However, the technology used to create these superficially similar East Siberian variants differ completely from European Textile ware. See V.V. Sidorov (2017) for a more in-depth explanation. The details here are important and significantly complicate the picture; you need to understand this otherwise you'll end up believing nonsense like Sintashta “organizing” ST.

Queequeg
“Do I get it right that this innominated culture leads into Samus Kizhirovo Culture, also known as Krasnoyarsk Culture? Or, is the Krasnoyarsk related cultural layer just a part of Samus Kizhirovo layer in Tatarka Hill? Would you have more information of the features typical for this innominated cultural formation?”

There is probably some genetic continuity, but I can’t say much more than that. 

It is characterized by burials in shallow and narrow grave pits containing skeletons put in supine positions with their skulls in the southeastern parts of grave pits. "Above some burials, elongated rubbleworks were recorded. In some cases, scarce grave goods were found, including bronze knives in the hands of the dead and beads in the head areas. In two cases, there were traces of fire on the bones and fragments of charred birch bark" (Zeng et al. 2023). 
Chronology could only be determined via radiocarbon dates, they predate the ‘andronoid’ Samus-Kizhirovo layer.

[qijia]

During migration, Seima turbino’s philosophy exposed to east and west, which is clearly connected to indo-european and American culture (especially maya).

Finding ST spear head at Yangtze valley, chinese scholar tried to connect okunevo to their bronze culture:



and
https://p4.itc.cn/q_70/images03/20230720...ddc773.png

see okunevo eyes, mouth and spiral culture:

Okunev_figurine_from_Itkul_II_mound_14,_northern_Minusinsk_Basin._Uybat_stage_of_the_Okunevo_Culture_(second_half_of_the_3rd_millennium_BC)_1.jpg (452×784) (wikimedia.org)

Okunev_figurine_from_Itkul_II_mound_14,_northern_Minusinsk_Basin._Uybat_stage_of_the_Okunevo_Culture_(second_half_of_the_3rd_millennium_BC)_2.jpg (350×784) (wikimedia.org)




see sanxingdui eyes, mouth and spirals. The sanxingui culture is just a spiral culture:

Gold_Mask_(黄金面罩).jpg (1980×2640) (wikimedia.org)

(replica)


"The meander is a fundamental design motif in regions far from a Hellenic orbit: labyrinthine meanders ("thunder" pattern [3]) appear in bands and as infill on Shang bronzes (c. 1600 BC – c. 1045 BC), and many traditional buildings in and around China still bear geometric designs almost identical to meanders. Although space-filling curves have a long history in China in motifs more than 2,000 years earlier, extending back to Zhukaigou Culture (c. 2000 BC – c. 1400 BC) and Xiajiadian Culture (c. 2200 BC – c. 1600 BC and c. 1000 BC – c. 600 BC), frequently there is speculation that meanders of Greek origin may have come to China during the time of the Han dynasty (c. 202 BC) by way of trade with the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom. A meander motif also appears in prehistoric Mayan design motifs in the western hemisphere, centuries before any European contacts."

Greek:

Palaistra_scene_Louvre_G457.jpg (2440×2430) (wikimedia.org)

Sanxingdui:

v2-f9cb7e1b17161f38deb126422edc5886_1440w.webp (950×714) (zhimg.com)

sun god(?) and double spirals:



means holy(?), spirals:

v2-8cee54232beb3aa45ecd3153b13d187c_1440w.webp (1440×2161) (zhimg.com)

- neolithic baikal, seima turbino, italy and india's sun god(?), post 39 below

Childebayeva et al. Bronze Age Northern Eurasian Genetics (19) (genarchivist.com)

- seima turbino single/double/triple spiral:

05-02.jpg (828×172) (swordmaster.org)

- Malta boy, seima turbino, norse and aryan double spiral.  post 15 below:

Dedicated Ancient North Eurasian discussion thread (genarchivist.com)


Mermaid (Diren River God), Sanxingdui jade, source: "Samsung Exploration Jade" (Xiamen Dianshizhai Art Museum, Xiamen Ancient Culture and Art Museum)


Above: This is a person in a mussel shell (two mussel shells on the back, stepping on a turtle under his feet), Sanxingdui jade, source: "Samsung Exploring Jade" (Xiamen Dianshizhai Art Museum, Xiamen Ancient Culture and Art Museum)
三星堆民间收藏：重新认识上古历史的物证 - 知乎 (zhihu.com)

Aphrodite:

Atuell_en_forma_d'Afrodita_en_una_petxina,_Àtica,_necròpolis_de_Fanagoria,_pinínsula_de_Taman._Primer_quart_del_segle_IV_aC,_ceràmica.JPG (1958×2152) (wikimedia.org)

- sanxingdui



- "Illustration of a Classic Veracruz stone altar relief at El Tajín. As part of the scene of rulers coming to power; in the lower centre is a throne under which stands a turtle as symbol of the earth."

ans_201_04_2.jpg (850×428) (mexicolore.co.uk)

- The Sanskrit word 'Kurma' (Devanagari: कूर्म) means 'Tortoise' and 'Turtle' :

[CowboyHG]

CowboyHG
If afansievo or okunevo were the key, it have developed hundreds of years earlier

This line of reasoning doesn’t make any sense. You claimed that the "prerequisites" for the ST phenomenon (presumably developed metallurgy) did not exist in the Altai-Sayan region. However, that statement is categorically false.

True, some of the pre-requisites existed (e.g. early metalwork) & several different groups were involved, but S-T flowered (in the forest zone)  after Sintashta-derived folk arrived & was a para-phenomenon. One can't really debate basic chronology & spatial range

As an aside, we see a raft of Siberian like cultural elements drifting west   which have nothing to do with Sayan-Altai metalwork, incl 'native' bone & stone tool technology. That is where the answer to Childebayeva's question lies, although the team themselves missed that.

[CLTVTE]

The connection, involving the Yangtze River basin ancient culture, which is known in China and the West, is the connection between the Lingjiatan culture, partially located in the Yangtze River basin, and the Hongshan culture of Northeast China. This connection is older than the “Seimo-Turbino phenomenon” and the Okunevo culture. Later migrations from the Hongshan culture’s area were directed as far as the Qinghai-Tibetan Plateau and the Hexi Corridor, which is already closer to the Altai Mountains and areas, where the core Afanasievo and later Okunevo of the southern Krasnoyarsk region in the Yenisei River basin were later located.

The Hongshan culture was more ancient that many western cultures, so the Hongshan culture could not have been influenced by them because of the Hongshan culture’s ancient age.

Metamorphic Imagery in Ancient Chinese Art and Religion
Elizabeth Childs-Johnson and John S. Major

Lingjiatan and the Roots of Liangzhu Culture and Metamorphic Belief

“With the gradual disappearance of the Hongshan culture and its replacement by the Xiajiadian culture in the northeast, Liangzhu in the southeast emerged as ancient China’s premier jade-working culture. Evidence that these two cultures may have had contact despite the fact that their urban and sacred centers were hundreds of miles apart and direct overland contact may have been hindered by the Yellow River and the mountainous terrain of Shandong, comes from plentiful data excavated from a pre-Liangzhu southern site at Lingjiatan 凌家灘 in Anhui, and in particular from burial No. 23 (Figure 3.3A–D). Jades from Lingjiatan burials have often been typologically compared to those of Liangzhu and, in this respect, serve as a prototype for those of the Liangzhu period (Zhang Jg 2008). The prominence of stone and jade weapons from Lingjiatan tombs is southern in type and origin. Yet, Lingjiatan’s importance is singular in its role as an intersection point of Hongshan and southern jade-working cultures (Wang Wj 2017: 39–41). As illustrated in Figure 3.4, a whole set of Hongshan-inspired jade types dramatically testify to the strong connection between northern and southern jade-working cultures. Lingjiatan is located in Anhui east of the Yangzi on the Hou River in Ma’anshan County. Lingjiatan jade images which show Hongshan inspiration and prototypes include not only a raptor with boar-headed wings; a pig-dragon; a crown to a hair comb; wrist guards (see e.g., Zhang Jg 2008 (tr): Figures 11–15); a turtle carapace and plastron with emphasis on axial directionality; but what will become ubiquitous as a metamorphic icon, human fiurines with raised arms. All the latter find direct comparison with Hongshan jade types (see Chapter 2 Figure 2.5) and may be defined as Hongshan influence, and likely are the result of trade or gifting, a friendly and probably robust interaction. The richness of burial no. M23, with some 330 artifacts, includes 200 jades and 97 stone implements, 31 pottery pieces, a bone fragment, and piece of turquoise. The burial was uncovered overlapping a stone circular altar and pit in the center of the cemetery area at Lingjiatan.”

[qijia]

Metamorphic Imagery in Ancient Chinese Art and Religion
Elizabeth Childs-Johnson and John S. Major

Lingjiatan and the Roots of Liangzhu Culture and Metamorphic Belief

“With the gradual disappearance of the Hongshan culture and its replacement by the Xiajiadian culture in the northeast, Liangzhu in the southeast emerged as ancient China’s premier jade-working culture. Evidence that these two cultures may have had contact despite the fact that their urban and sacred centers were hundreds of miles apart and direct overland contact may have been hindered by the Yellow River and the mountainous terrain of Shandong, comes from plentiful data excavated from a pre-Liangzhu southern site at Lingjiatan 凌家灘 in Anhui, and in particular from burial No. 23 (Figure 3.3A–D). Jades from Lingjiatan burials have often been typologically compared to those of Liangzhu and, in this respect, serve as a prototype for those of the Liangzhu period (Zhang Jg 2008). 

seima turbino ( culture or phenomenon or whatever ) migrated to Xiajiadian :

"These new observations suggest that the distribution of metal spearheads from the Seima-Turbino Culture to northern China represents the diffusion and spread of the metallurgical technique. From the metallurgical perspective in particular, the bronze casting of spearheads indicates the origin of piece-mould casting and core-casting technology, which influenced the bronze vessel casting method in China. We therefore suggest that the early Chinese metallurgy of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture in the western Liao River area can be linked to the Seima-Turbino Culture; this technique had spread from the Altai Mountain area to northern China via the Taosi Culture. After spreading to the Lower Xiajiadian Culture, it finally arrived at the Qijia Culture of Qinghai and Gansu provinces in the west (Figure 3)."

- triquetra pattern on first dagger of the Lower Xiajiadian Culture :

a-inchifeng-xiajiadian-duanjian.jpg (347×566) (jiaxiangwang.com)

- seima turbino single spiral double spiral and  Triskele : 

05-02.jpg (828×172) (swordmaster.org)


-  Lower Xiajiadian spiral. 



-  Triskele, Jinsha

6994813704_2ee8d44d67.jpg (359×380) (wp.com)


As I already posted, altai, baikal and honshan culture is basically connected and linked to america (especially maya)

Разные цвета нефрита (elementy.ru)


- migrate to china mainland as a royal culture:

urn:cambridge.org:id:binary-alt:20170920130655-76677-mediumThumb-S0003598X17001776_fig2g.jpg (350×178)

Hongshan :


shang oracle bone script of 母 (mother) :


Female figure of bronze found at Fårdal near Viborg

458p.jpg (290×380) (dandebat.dk)

42bbe6b73f68a82e0665b5b22972ba59.jpg (736×552) (pinimg.com)

v2-c95c36d82dec216d227f5d2d72dd4c99_1440w.webp (397×750) (zhimg.com)


- to be connected to america 

Y Yangtze at china :
6781.jpg (750×630) (worldhistory.org)

  circle and spirals at peru :

9328469.jpg (768×1024) (archive.org)
ai_apaec_360392_14.png (670×501) (rankuzz.com)