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A thread to discuss Ancient North Eurasians and related cultures, their formation, structure, and it's descendants.
The Ancient North Eurasian samples we have:
Yana1 and Yana2 30233-29582 cal BCE from Yana RHS , Also called Ancient North Siberian
MA1 22621-22171 cal BCE from Mal'Ta, associated with Mal'Ta Buret' culture
AfontovaGora2 15001-14640 cal BCE and AfontovaGora3 16257-15905 cal BCE from Afrontova Gora.
DCP1 22250-21880 cal BCE from Denisova Cave, sequenced from a deer pendant.
Further associated groups include the Eastern Hunter-Gatherers in Eastern Europe from the Epipaleolithic to the Neolithic, Hissar Neolithic culture in Tajikistan, West Siberian Hunter-Gatherers in Mesolithic Siberia and the ancestors of modern day Native Americans.
Literature:
Upper Palaeolithic Siberian genome reveals dual ancestry of Native Americans
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12736
The population history of northeastern Siberia since the Pleistocene
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-019-1279-z
The genetic history of Ice Age Europe
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature17993
Ancient human DNA recovered from a Palaeolithic pendant
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06035-2
Palaeogenomics of Upper Palaeolithic to Neolithic European hunter-gatherers
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05726-0
The formation of human populations in South and Central Asia
https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aat7487
Genome-wide patterns of selection in 230 ancient Eurasians
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16152
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Quick question, is the Iran N affinity in Tutkaul definitely West Asian admixture, or can it be Tutkaul being more closely related to the source of ANE in Iran?
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Regarding related groups: one more such group is Early Bronze Age population of Tarim Basin:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04052-7
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06-21-2024, 01:28 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-21-2024, 01:30 AM by Kale.)
Based on a bunch of qpadm I just ran and the qpgraph I've done over the eons...
Some caveats: Tutkaul can do fine without any NEA, and EHG needs a little more than AG3 provides (EHG meaning the early ones, Minino, Sidelkino, Arkhangelsk)
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06-21-2024, 10:43 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-21-2024, 11:02 AM by Norfern-Ostrobothnian.)
There is definitely something non-ANE in Tutkaul, but it may not be necessarily as deep as Iran Neolithic. The East Eurasian could suffice to explain the difference in most cases.
Some f4-stats comparing other groups vs Yana and ANE + Iran Neolithic
Initial Upper Paleolithic Eurasians
Code: Chimp.REF Russia_Ust_Ishim_HG.DG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000430 0.000618 0.696 0.487
Chimp.REF Russia_Ust_Ishim_HG.DG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.000495 0.000724 0.684 0.494
Chimp.REF Russia_Ust_Ishim_HG.DG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.000100 0.000798 0.125 0.900
Chimp.REF Russia_Ust_Ishim_HG.DG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00315 0.000599 -5.26 0.000000143
Chimp.REF Czechia_Bohemia_UP_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000130 0.000643 0.203 0.839
Chimp.REF Czechia_Bohemia_UP_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 -0.0000242 0.000767 -0.0315 0.975
Chimp.REF Czechia_Bohemia_UP_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.00128 0.000797 1.61 0.108
Chimp.REF Czechia_Bohemia_UP_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.000109 0.000614 -0.177 0.860
Chimp.REF Bulgaria_BachoKiro_LatePleistocene Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.0000930 0.000538 -0.173 0.863
Chimp.REF Bulgaria_BachoKiro_LatePleistocene Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.000375 0.000637 0.589 0.556
Chimp.REF Bulgaria_BachoKiro_LatePleistocene Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.00108 0.000691 1.56 0.119
Chimp.REF Bulgaria_BachoKiro_LatePleistocene Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00254 0.000500 -5.07 0.000000392
Upper Paleolithic West Eurasians
Code: Chimp.REF Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000359 0.000684 0.526 5.99e- 1
Chimp.REF Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.000657 0.000818 0.804 4.22e- 1
Chimp.REF Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N -0.000150 0.000824 -0.182 8.56e- 1
Chimp.REF Russia_Sunghir3.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00550 0.000642 -8.57 9.93e-18
Chimp.REF Russia_Kostenki14 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000159 0.000636 0.250 8.02e- 1
Chimp.REF Russia_Kostenki14 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 -0.000689 0.000784 -0.879 3.79e- 1
Chimp.REF Russia_Kostenki14 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N -0.00117 0.000830 -1.41 1.58e- 1
Chimp.REF Russia_Kostenki14 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00607 0.000660 -9.20 3.46e-20
Chimp.REF Czech_Vestonice16 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000476 0.000693 0.687 4.92e- 1
Chimp.REF Czech_Vestonice16 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 -0.00132 0.000822 -1.61 1.08e- 1
Chimp.REF Czech_Vestonice16 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N -0.000512 0.000870 -0.588 5.56e- 1
Chimp.REF Czech_Vestonice16 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00629 0.000662 -9.50 2.18e-21
Chimp.REF Bulgaria_BachoKiro_MiddleUpperPaleolithic Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000360 0.000672 -0.536 5.92e- 1
Chimp.REF Bulgaria_BachoKiro_MiddleUpperPaleolithic Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 -0.000571 0.000801 -0.713 4.76e- 1
Chimp.REF Bulgaria_BachoKiro_MiddleUpperPaleolithic Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N -0.00226 0.000883 -2.56 1.05e- 2
Chimp.REF Bulgaria_BachoKiro_MiddleUpperPaleolithic Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00606 0.000664 -9.13 6.78e-20
Chimp.REF Romania_PesteraMuierii_EUP Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000533 0.000641 0.832 4.06e- 1
Chimp.REF Romania_PesteraMuierii_EUP Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.000295 0.000791 0.373 7.09e- 1
Chimp.REF Romania_PesteraMuierii_EUP Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N -0.000822 0.000815 -1.01 3.13e- 1
Chimp.REF Romania_PesteraMuierii_EUP Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00545 0.000641 -8.51 1.76e-17
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000112 0.000746 0.150 8.81e- 1
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 -0.00118 0.000916 -1.29 1.97e- 1
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N -0.000678 0.000938 -0.723 4.70e- 1
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_GoyetQ116_1 Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00840 0.000719 -11.7 1.65e-31
Chimp.REF Spain_Serinya_UP_Gravettian Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.0000101 0.000883 0.0114 9.91e- 1
Chimp.REF Spain_Serinya_UP_Gravettian Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.00209 0.00119 1.76 7.84e- 2
Chimp.REF Spain_Serinya_UP_Gravettian Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.00159 0.00124 1.29 1.98e- 1
Chimp.REF Spain_Serinya_UP_Gravettian Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00773 0.000808 -9.58 1.01e-21
Kotias and WHG related
Code: Chimp.REF Georgia_Kotias_UP Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.00111 0.000650 1.71 0.0874
Chimp.REF Georgia_Kotias_UP Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.00252 0.000849 2.96 0.00303
Chimp.REF Georgia_Kotias_UP Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.00263 0.000878 3.00 0.00272
Chimp.REF Georgia_Kotias_UP Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.0000571 0.000618 0.0923 0.926
Chimp.REF Turkey_Epipaleolithic Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.00139 0.000634 2.18 0.0290
Chimp.REF Turkey_Epipaleolithic Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.00233 0.000761 3.06 0.00221
Chimp.REF Turkey_Epipaleolithic Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.00210 0.000859 2.45 0.0144
Chimp.REF Turkey_Epipaleolithic Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.00139 0.000610 2.28 0.0227
Chimp.REF Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.00286 0.000638 4.49 7.24e- 6
Chimp.REF Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.00504 0.000741 6.80 1.08e-11
Chimp.REF Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.00642 0.000851 7.55 4.31e-14
Chimp.REF Georgia_Kotias.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG 0.00656 0.000616 10.6 1.79e-26
Chimp.REF Italy_Mesolithic.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.00177 0.000625 2.83 4.61e- 3
Chimp.REF Italy_Mesolithic.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.00267 0.000750 3.55 3.82e- 4
Chimp.REF Italy_Mesolithic.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.00139 0.000753 1.85 6.45e- 2
Chimp.REF Italy_Mesolithic.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00354 0.000559 -6.34 2.36e-10
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_Magdalenian Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.00131 0.000740 1.77 7.69e- 2
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_Magdalenian Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 -0.000194 0.000924 -0.210 8.34e- 1
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_Magdalenian Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.000284 0.000997 0.285 7.76e- 1
Chimp.REF Belgium_UP_Magdalenian Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00580 0.000683 -8.48 2.17e-17
Later ANE related groups
Code: Chimp.REF Russia_Karelia_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.00884 0.000654 13.5 1.28e-41
Chimp.REF Russia_Karelia_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.0141 0.000818 17.2 4.27e-66
Chimp.REF Russia_Karelia_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.0113 0.000820 13.8 4.89e-43
Chimp.REF Russia_Karelia_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00297 0.000583 -5.09 3.59e- 7
Chimp.REF Russia_Tyumen_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.0128 0.000674 19.0 9.08e- 81
Chimp.REF Russia_Tyumen_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.0186 0.000866 21.5 2.19e-102
Chimp.REF Russia_Tyumen_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.0174 0.000884 19.6 6.20e- 86
Chimp.REF Russia_Tyumen_HG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00269 0.000652 -4.12 3.76e- 5
Chimp.REF Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.0114 0.000544 20.9 2.11e- 97
Chimp.REF Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.0170 0.000692 24.5 6.05e-133
Chimp.REF Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.0148 0.000719 20.6 4.94e- 94
Chimp.REF Kazakhstan_Botai_Eneolithic.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00245 0.000524 -4.68 2.86e- 6
Chimp.REF China_Xinjiang_Xiaohe_BA.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.0139 0.000641 21.7 2.53e-104
Chimp.REF China_Xinjiang_Xiaohe_BA.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.0211 0.000757 27.8 2.24e-170
Chimp.REF China_Xinjiang_Xiaohe_BA.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.0197 0.000829 23.8 4.14e-125
Chimp.REF China_Xinjiang_Xiaohe_BA.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00278 0.000589 -4.72 2.40e- 6
East Eurasians
Code: Chimp.REF ONG.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.0000149 0.000552 0.0269 0.979
Chimp.REF ONG.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.000390 0.000653 0.597 0.551
Chimp.REF ONG.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.000509 0.000691 0.737 0.461
Chimp.REF ONG.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00258 0.000522 -4.94 0.000000784
Chimp.REF China_Tianyuan Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.00151 0.000683 -2.21 2.71e- 2
Chimp.REF China_Tianyuan Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 -0.00159 0.000784 -2.03 4.23e- 2
Chimp.REF China_Tianyuan Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N -0.00204 0.000852 -2.39 1.69e- 2
Chimp.REF China_Tianyuan Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00499 0.000635 -7.86 3.81e-15
Chimp.REF Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG -0.000994 0.000562 -1.77 0.0772
Chimp.REF Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.00115 0.000688 1.67 0.0944
Chimp.REF Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.000874 0.000734 1.19 0.234
Chimp.REF Russia_DevilsCave_N.SG Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00314 0.000557 -5.63 0.0000000181
Chimp.REF China_YR_LN Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.000398 0.000508 0.783 0.433
Chimp.REF China_YR_LN Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.000949 0.000624 1.52 0.128
Chimp.REF China_YR_LN Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.00121 0.000677 1.78 0.0750
Chimp.REF China_YR_LN Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00306 0.000517 -5.91 0.00000000337
Chimp.REF Japan_HG_Jomon Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.00000267 0.000595 0.00449 0.996
Chimp.REF Japan_HG_Jomon Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.000315 0.000721 0.437 0.662
Chimp.REF Japan_HG_Jomon Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.000783 0.000760 1.03 0.303
Chimp.REF Japan_HG_Jomon Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00350 0.000590 -5.92 0.00000000319
Chimp.REF China_AmurRiver_N Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.00000215 0.000533 0.00404 0.997
Chimp.REF China_AmurRiver_N Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.000777 0.000653 1.19 0.234
Chimp.REF China_AmurRiver_N Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.00177 0.000718 2.46 0.0139
Chimp.REF China_AmurRiver_N Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00310 0.000532 -5.83 0.00000000550
Chimp.REF Russia_Siberia_Lena_EBA Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.00344 0.000507 6.79 1.15e-11
Chimp.REF Russia_Siberia_Lena_EBA Russia_Yana_UP.SG Russia_AfontovaGora3 0.00603 0.000645 9.35 8.99e-21
Chimp.REF Russia_Siberia_Lena_EBA Russia_Yana_UP.SG Tajikistan_Tutkaul_N 0.00532 0.000684 7.78 7.48e-15
Chimp.REF Russia_Siberia_Lena_EBA Russia_Yana_UP.SG Iran_Wezmeh_N.SG -0.00331 0.000494 -6.70 2.11e-11
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06-21-2024, 10:56 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-21-2024, 05:05 PM by CLTVTE.)
The article “Bronze and Iron Age population movements underlie Xinjiang population history” contains numerous situations, regarding components, which can be found in AG3/AfontovaGora3 (ANE), and a very ancient more East Asian component which was shared by East Asia and Native Americans and which was contributed to AfontovaGora3, can also be identified in that article, which suggests that a distinct population within mtDNA B4a-related ancestors of Austronesians (to whose languages Sino-Tibetan is also related according to Laurent Sagart’s Sino-Tibetan-Austronesian) contributed to AfontovaGora3 and Native American mtDNA B2-mtDNA C1-mtDNA D1-related populations via Northeast Asia and East Asian ancestors of Native American-related population (taking into account that Native American mtDNA B2, mtDNA C1, mtDNA D1 once separated from ancient East Asians via Shandong starting from the period around the Last Glacial Maximum, which began ca. 26500 years ago, that is, prior to the 25800-year-old contribution from yDNA P-related Yana_RHS to Paleosiberian yDNA Q-related Kolyma1 in “The population history of northeastern Siberia since the Pleistocene”). mtDNA B4a females in China and Austronesia were mainly associated with the male populations, bearing yDNA O-M122 and yDNA O-M119 haplogroups, while mtDNA B4b (the parent of Native American B2), mtDNA C7 (relative of mtDNA C1) and deep branches of mtDNA D4 (the parent of mtDNA D1) somehow intersected in Korea. The ancestors of AfontovaGora3 likely interacted with bearers of mtDNA X2, which separated from the Near East and also interacted with the Near Eastern populations.
The article “Bronze and Iron Age population movements underlie Xinjiang population history” also discovered 6% of the ancestry of the early Iron Age Swat Valley Pakistani-Indo-Aryan samples (Swat Protohistoric Grave Type) in the Xinjiang’s ancient sample, having mtDNA lineage, which carried the mutation C16148T. The separation of 6% of ancestry was considered to happen 44000-54000 years ago in “The Formation of Human Populations in South and Central Asia”, and it also appeared in EHG, who were relatives of the ANE population.
From the below list of C16148T, [1] mtDNA M32c can be treated as a distant relative of the Onge’s mtDNA M32; [2] late mtDNA M7c1a1a2a1a can be treated as a distant relative of the Dai’s mtDNA M7c1a, [3] late mtDNA B5a1a17c can be treated as a distant relative of mtDNA B5a1a1 of the Nicobarese, [4] late mtDNA M5a1b1a1c of the Out-of-India Indo-Aryan Roma people can be treated as a distant relative of mtDNA M5a of the Juang; [5] mtDNA R9b1b can be treated as a relative of mtDNA R9b1b, which was observed in the Guangdong, of which the Li people of Hainan used to be the part, while Guangdong’s mtDNA R9b1b is a neighbour of Guangdong’s mtDNA R9c1b1+ C16148T, which is more similar to the ancient mtDNA R9c1b of the Qihedong individual from sea coastal Fujian, who was affected by the coastal gene flow via India in the IVPP articles.
The appearance of the related 6% of ancestry in the EHG should have been caused by the existence of the ANE influence on Western and Eastern Eurasian samples, while the ANE sample of Tutkaul 1 (yDNA Q), which is geographically not too far from the Near East) belonged to mtDNA U7, whose branches also carry C16148T mutation, while a part of mtDNA U7 is observed in Pakistan.
It is difficult to say, what sort of languages populations, akin to mtDNA L0a’b’g, spoke initially. Consequently, the marginal appearance of 6% of such an ancestry in some marginal populations could not change the linguistic landscape in India,Southeast Asia, East Asia, Northeast Asia and adjacent Siberia. Consequently Sino-Tibetan, Tai-Kadai, Austroasiatic, Austronesian, Koreanic, Japonic, Nihali, Kusunda languages or proto-languages preserved their “most basic” indigenous “East Asian-like” linguistic properties, some of which were much more similar to main Western Eurasian languages, rather than to language isolates of the Near East, such as Sumerian of Mesopotamia or Elamite.
C16148T L0a'b'g
C16148T U7a4a
C16148T L2a1c3b1a
C16148T L3e2a1b4
C16148T L3e3b8
C16148T L3h1a2a1d
C16148T M1a3b5
C16148T M13a1b
C16148T M23a1n
C16148T M28
C16148T Q1
C16148T M32c
C16148T M5a1b1a1c
C16148T M74b1a2
C16148T M69a
C16148T M7c1a1a2a1a
C16148T C5b1
C16148T D2b1a2
C16148T D4h3b
C16148T D4j4a1
C16148T D5b1c1
C16148T A20a
C16148T I5a
C16148T I5d1
C16148T P7
C16148T H1au
C16148T H1m5a
C16148T H13a2c1
C16148T H2a1e1a1
C16148T H3u1
C16148T H5ag
C16148T HV-b6
C16148T J1c2m
C16148T J1c5b1a
C16148T J2b1p
C16148T T1a1ca
C16148T T2g1a1
C16148T R7f
C16148T R9b1b
C16148T B2a4a1a1
C16148T B2g2a
C16148T B5a1a17c
C16148T B5a1d6a
C16148T U3a1i1
C16148T K3
C16148T U5a1a1c1a
C16148T U5b1b1a-a
C16148T U5b1b1a3
C16148T L5
ADDITION: The described Chinese article “Bronze and Iron Age population movements underlie Xinjiang population history”:
[1] Identified that 13% of ancestry, which “separated from the Onge” and which had a shared genetic drift with Ami Austronesians and which separated to one of Botai specimens in Korean Choongwon Jeong et al, 2019, was in fact related to the contribution of the Norheast Asian mtDNA N9b-related population to the Ami Austronesians (which should be similar to the contribution, caused by the Northeast Asia-influenced Xitoucun population to the ancestors of the Ami Austronesians). Indeed, mtDNA N9b is observed in the Tungusic Udegey population, which lives in Russia not far from Korea and Japan.
[2] Identified in Botai and Tarim_EMBA1 the above described “mtDNA B4a-related” “Austronesian-related” component, which had to separated in the Paleolithic from yDNA O-M122 and yDNA O-M119-related populations to AfontovaGora3 via Northeast Asia, which was still partially inhabited by relatives of Native Americans in the Paleolithic.
[3]Identified in Botai the “ancient East Asian” component, which separated to Kostenki14 more than 40000 years ago in "Human population history at the crossroads of East and Southeast Asia since 11,000 years ago", and it is related to the rare mtDNA lineage which is now only observed in East Asia and to a much smaller degree in Southeast Asia, and this mtDNA lineage is only characterized by one mutation, splitting from the tree of mtDNA M, which is in mtDNA M lineages, mtDNA N lineages and one mtDNA L3 lineage (but not in mtDNA L0, L1, L2, L4, L5, L6, L7), but not in the branch of mtDNA L3, which is observed in African speakers of polysynthetic languages, for example, such as speakers of Kiswahili (a Bantu language, originally spoken by the Swahili people, who are found primarily in Tanzania, Kenya and Mozambique (along the East African coast and adjacent littoral islands)), and the mentioned difference in mtDNA L3 lineages indirectly supports the absence of polysynthetic languages in East Asia.
[4] Identified in Botai the modest amount of the East Asian component, which also reached India (via Southern China) and later the Hebei Province of China, e.g. locations in Hebei, similar to the location, described in “Genetic diversity of two Neolithic populations provides evidence of farming expansions in North China”. Such a component in China is in an individual, belonging to basal mtDNA N* (see other cases of the basal mtDNA N https://www.yfull.com/mtree/n/, the mtDNA pre-N being in yDNA K2a* Oase who did not contribute to modern populations, but to whom some of the Miao are one of the closest in East Asia and some of the Dravidian Khonda Dora are one of the closest in India), belonging to basal mtDNA N*, which is characterized by the mutation, which is only observed in mtDNA N,M and L3 lineages (but not in mtDNA L0, L1, L2, L4, L5, L6,L7), but not in the branch of mtDNA L3, which is observed in African speakers of polysynthetic languages.
Consequently, the geneticists in China can identify various East Asian components in Botai, because they know relevant East Asian-related populations to compare Botai to them, which makes them different from Americans and Europeans.
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(06-21-2024, 12:55 AM)Rozenfeld Wrote: Regarding related groups: one more such group is Early Bronze Age population of Tarim Basin
The Tarim population is absolutely unimportant. Tarim mummies of the Bronze Age are generally the first people to settle in Tarim. Before them, no one lived there at all, the first traces of people passing through this territory were 7 thousand years ago, before that there were no traces of human presence there at all.
The Tarim mummies are simply Botai people who passed east with the Seima-Turbino trade phenomenon (ROT006 XY R1b1a1a-M73 A10 ca. 4150-3800 BP, ROT013), moved east to Altai for tin bronze, and then came a little further south to Tarim. Tarim mummies are almost from Europe, on the other side of the Urals, moving east, they added oriental admixture.
Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:XHM100
Distance: 5.6966% / 0.05696565
78.4 KAZ_Botai
21.6 RUS_AfontovaGora3_LUP
Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L5209
Distance: 5.9566% / 0.05956649
77.2 KAZ_Botai
22.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3_LUP
Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:L6101
Distance: 5.6031% / 0.05603093
69.8 KAZ_Botai
24.0 RUS_AfontovaGora3_LUP
4.0 RUS_Sosnovy_WSHG
2.2 RUS_Sakhalin_HG
Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA2:11KBM1
Distance: 6.1423% / 0.06142288
66.2 KAZ_Botai
14.8 RUS_Sosnovy_WSHG
13.6 RUS_AfontovaGora3_LUP
5.4 RUS_Sakhalin_HG
Target: CHN_Tarim_EMBA1:GMGM1
Distance: 6.4466% / 0.06446626
77.4 KAZ_Botai
17.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3_LUP
4.8 RUS_Sakhalin_HG
......
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06-21-2024, 11:56 AM
(This post was last modified: 06-21-2024, 12:21 PM by Gabru77.)
Tarim isn't Botai, they lack any EHG thay Botai possess. Tarim is very simply ANE(AfontovaGora3 aka AG3) + NEA/ANA/APS
It's likely more related to Altai_N population which also didn't have EHG
In fact,
Target: KAZ_Botai_En
Distance: 1.9750% / 0.01975017
58.2 CHN_Tarim_EMBA1
24.6 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
17.2 RUS_Altai_7500BP
Target: RUS_Sosonivoy_HG
Distance: 2.0876% / 0.02087597
63.0 CHN_Tarim_EMBA1
33.0 RUS_Sidelkino_HG
4.0 RUS_Altai_6500BP
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06-21-2024, 12:48 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-21-2024, 12:59 PM by tru.)
The Tarim mummies are Batai, they are not East Asian at all. They are Caucasians with a European archaeological culture, they do not have any East Asian genes and anthropology and cultural characteristics. The entire culture of the Tarim mummies is strictly European. They are simply part of the Botai people with the “European” haplogroup R1b1a2a2c1. Genetically they are identical to Botai, no tests or PCA connect them with any Altai_N. Mongoloids lived in the Neolithic in Altai.
Do not write anything that does not correspond to the truth without calculating anything, on all PCA and on all ADMIXTURE in all sources the Tarim and Botai are shown the same, they do not contain any EHG, you simply do not calculate anything yourself and do not look at the sources, but everything is depicted there.
![[Image: 30360_original.png]](https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dnaarchive/95534683/30360/30360_original.png)
![[Image: 30944_original.png]](https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dnaarchive/95534683/30944/30944_original.png)
![[Image: 30518_original.png]](https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dnaarchive/95534683/30518/30518_original.png)
PS. Don’t make this up, 4,500 years ago, not a single person had ever lived in Tarim yet. The Tarim people did not exist and they are not the ancestors of anyone. Therefore your models are not possible.
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06-21-2024, 12:51 PM
(This post was last modified: 06-21-2024, 12:51 PM by Norfern-Ostrobothnian.)
They aren't exactly Botai but they're part of a similar population. They probably originate from a common source somewhere between the two, with Botai having more WSHG than many Tarim individuals or conversely Tarim having more ANE than Botai.
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They are Botai because we do not have any data from neighboring cultures, so for now the Botai, that is, apart from the Botai, there is no one closer to them. Once there is data from neighboring cultures, then we will be able to clarify their culture, but for now they and the Botai once formed the same population. The Tarim people have specimens with the same amount of WSHG as the Botai people, but of course, having married Siberian women when moving from the Urals to China, they acquired more oriental admixture, it could not have been otherwise. Their starting point was a culture that was indistinguishable from the European one.
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(06-21-2024, 01:13 PM)tru Wrote: They are Botai because we do not have any data from neighboring cultures, so for now the Botai, that is, apart from the Botai, there is no one closer to them. Once there is data from neighboring cultures, then we will be able to clarify their culture, but for now they and the Botai once formed the same population. The Tarim people have specimens with the same amount of WSHG as the Botai people, but of course, having married Siberian women when moving from the Urals to China, they acquired more oriental admixture, it could not have been otherwise. Their starting point was a culture that was indistinguishable from the European one.
There is no "European culture" in archaeology, if you're trying to make a point use correct terminology. Y-haplogroup of Tarim samples originated in Asia and doesn't have anything to do with Europe.
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I clearly wrote: the culture is indistinguishable from European culture, and not that it is European culture. European cultures differ from non-European ones, that is, this culture is not similar to any known non-European culture, but in a set of traits it is similar to European ones.
Yes, I know that this haplogroup is not European, but I didn’t write that it is from Europe, although all its relatives are in Europe. It is still not known on which side of the Ural Mountains it occurred, it is quite likely that it was on the eastern side. It is important that the sample from Rostovka (Siberia) of the Seima-Turbino trade phenomenon belongs to the same haplogroup and autosomal group.
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(06-21-2024, 03:43 PM)tru Wrote: They are Caucasians with a European archaeological culture, they do not have any East Asian genes and anthropology and cultural characteristics. The entire culture of the Tarim mummies is strictly European Quote:I clearly wrote: the culture is indistinguishable from European culture, and not that it is European culture. European cultures differ from non-European ones, that is, this culture is not similar to any known non-European culture, but in a set of traits it is similar to European ones.
Yes, I know that this haplogroup is not European, but I didn’t write that it is from Europe, although all its relatives are in Europe. It is still not known on which side of the Ural Mountains it occurred, it is quite likely that it was on the eastern side. It is important that the sample from Rostovka (Siberia) of the Seima-Turbino trade phenomenon belongs to the same haplogroup and autosomal group.
These seem contradictory. What European archaeological cultures are you claiming are indistinguishable from Xiaohe?
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Regarding ANE, malta boy's sun spiral (especially double spirals) and snake on pendant is very important. That is why I think ancient people at america also had a sky god of sunhead and snake (thunderbolt). The spiral seemed to become a core culture at steppe bronze age, not originating in neolithic spiral culture at all.:
![[Image: Mal%27ta_centrally_perforated_ivory_plaque.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/Mal%27ta_centrally_perforated_ivory_plaque.jpg)
![[Image: Mal%27ta_centrally_perforated_ivory_plaq...snakes.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Mal%27ta_centrally_perforated_ivory_plaque_with_three_snakes.jpg)
"The ancient symbol of the double spiral appears to be closely related to the sun's path throughout the year, and to incorporate the subtle complexities created by the obliquity of the ecliptic and the eccentricity of earth's orbit."
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...4#pid20394
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