Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA (DISCUSSION ONLY)

[G-Man]

pegasus

C837 = Zhagunluke 44Q  https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-PH200/tree

[Alain]

I'd like to mention here the find of 5 graves from the bell beaker period (ca. 2.600 – 2.200 BC) in Bergrheinfeld, Bavaria, Germany. It was promised to investigate the DNA of these samples, the bones are said to be in good preservation conditions. The important fact is that we already have ancient DNA results from Bergrheinfeld for the corded ware period (ca. 3.000 – 2.200 BC) with the males being R1a so it will be exciting to compare with the bell beaker samples and give nice insights into the genetic change of these two cultures in Lower Franconia.
https://www.br.de/nachrichten/bayern/sue...er,TxZQXEo


I'm really excited about the DNA results of the Bell Beakers from Bavaria, but I think there will certainly be a lot of R1b-P312 branches since the Bell Beakers were predominantly created from the Single Grave culture of the local variant of the corded Ware, but there can also be a few exotic ones as well How should I put it, little surprises like R1b-Z2103 come into contact with post-Yamnaya groups from the Carpathian-Danube basin, the Bell Beakers had extensive trade contacts quite early on. And definitely genetically a contribution to the history of Central and Western Europe from the late Neolithic to
contributed to the Bronze Age and later cultures also in the fusion with the
Corded Ware paved the way for the Únětice culture with their sensational finds
the Nebra sky disk.

[Andar]

Can someone convert the BAM files of these two samples and sent them to Davidski?

They are from the already sampled Zhagunluke  site but one has some kind of weird profile which seems 60-70% Steppe_MLBA and rest IAMC. He also is R1a-YP413 a clade rather common in Kurds, Balochs and Pashtuns and before not showing up in Xinjiang and Iron Age Steppe

https://ngdc.cncb.ac.cn/gsa-human/browse/HRA006152

Is there coordinates or admixture results of this sample???

I just have some simulated coordinates based on the Harappa results. He is probably some high Steppe MLBA+IAMC/ANE mix so rather an early sample would be my guess. Doesn't look like some late IA Southeast Iranic too me.

Zhangaluketest-HW-sim_scaled,0.0857,0.0009,0.0179,0.0842,-0.055,0.0305,-0.0039,-0.0093,-0.0375,-0.0531,0.004,-0.005,0.0069,-0.029,0.0217,0.0133,-0.0008,-0.0007,0.0006,0.0019,-0.0135,0.0049,0.0086,0.0047,-0.0012
Zhangaluketest-HW-sim,0.007529,0.000089,0.004746,0.026068,-0.017872,0.010936,-0.001659,-0.00403,-0.018335,-0.029138,0.002463,-0.003336,0.004641,-0.021072,0.015989,0.010031,-0.000614,-0.000553,0.000477,0.001519,-0.010819,0.003963,0.006978,0.0039,-0.001002

When is this sample dated too ??  I think proper coordinates are needed but it has the same components as one of the other outliers in this cemetery , they plot very close on the PCA.  The Steppe MLBA is more 35-40% but there is tonnes of excess ANE/Siberian type ancestry.


sample: Custom:Zhangaluketest-HW-sim scaled
distance: 1.933
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 36.5
Aigyrzhal_BA: 30.5
Tarim_EMBA1: 15
Slab_Grave_EIA_1: 9.5
Gonur1_BA: 8.5


sample: Zaghunluq IA5:C837
distance: 1.8168
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 34.5
Aigyrzhal_BA: 24.5
Tarim_EMBA1: 18
Slab_Grave_EIA_1: 13.5
Gonur1_BA: 9.5

This one has R1b but what is the subclade?


sample: Abusanteer IA:C4127
distance: 1.9361
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 46.5
Sarazm_En: 28.5
Tarim_EMBA1: 11
Slab_Grave_EIA_1: 10.5
Chokhopani_2700BP: 3.5

Thanks. I was a bit confused because i first looked at his Harappa results and could not interpret it correctly. Still this kind of profiles look like from some Indo-Iranian group predating main wave of later SE Iranics. Khotanese is often also described as basal Iranic language with "Daevic" elements. Languages like Sarikoli seem to come from a later wave richer in BMAC-like ancestry
I also asked FTDNA to upload the sample on the Discover tree

[pegasus]

Can someone convert the BAM files of these two samples and sent them to Davidski?

They are from the already sampled Zhagunluke  site but one has some kind of weird profile which seems 60-70% Steppe_MLBA and rest IAMC. He also is R1a-YP413 a clade rather common in Kurds, Balochs and Pashtuns and before not showing up in Xinjiang and Iron Age Steppe

https://ngdc.cncb.ac.cn/gsa-human/browse/HRA006152

Is there coordinates or admixture results of this sample???

I just have some simulated coordinates based on the Harappa results. He is probably some high Steppe MLBA+IAMC/ANE mix so rather an early sample would be my guess. Doesn't look like some late IA Southeast Iranic too me.

Zhangaluketest-HW-sim_scaled,0.0857,0.0009,0.0179,0.0842,-0.055,0.0305,-0.0039,-0.0093,-0.0375,-0.0531,0.004,-0.005,0.0069,-0.029,0.0217,0.0133,-0.0008,-0.0007,0.0006,0.0019,-0.0135,0.0049,0.0086,0.0047,-0.0012
Zhangaluketest-HW-sim,0.007529,0.000089,0.004746,0.026068,-0.017872,0.010936,-0.001659,-0.00403,-0.018335,-0.029138,0.002463,-0.003336,0.004641,-0.021072,0.015989,0.010031,-0.000614,-0.000553,0.000477,0.001519,-0.010819,0.003963,0.006978,0.0039,-0.001002

When is this sample dated too ??  I think proper coordinates are needed but it has the same components as one of the other outliers in this cemetery , they plot very close on the PCA.  The Steppe MLBA is more 35-40% but there is tonnes of excess ANE/Siberian type ancestry.


sample: Custom:Zhangaluketest-HW-sim scaled
distance: 1.933
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 36.5
Aigyrzhal_BA: 30.5
Tarim_EMBA1: 15
Slab_Grave_EIA_1: 9.5
Gonur1_BA: 8.5


sample: Zaghunluq IA5:C837
distance: 1.8168
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 34.5
Aigyrzhal_BA: 24.5
Tarim_EMBA1: 18
Slab_Grave_EIA_1: 13.5
Gonur1_BA: 9.5

This one has R1b but what is the subclade?


sample: Abusanteer IA:C4127
distance: 1.9361
Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA: 46.5
Sarazm_En: 28.5
Tarim_EMBA1: 11
Slab_Grave_EIA_1: 10.5
Chokhopani_2700BP: 3.5

Thanks. I was a bit confused because i first looked at his Harappa results and could not interpret it correctly. Still this kind of profiles look like from some Indo-Iranian group predating main wave of later SE Iranics. Khotanese is often also described as basal Iranic language with "Daevic" elements. Languages like Sarikoli seem to come from a later wave richer in BMAC-like ancestry
I also asked FTDNA to upload the sample on the Discover tree

There are Steppe MLBA rich profiles like this one but from 1300-1200 BCE 

sample: Songshugou LBA:C3348
distance: 1.8577
Maitan_MLBA_Alakul: 57
Gonur1_BA_o: 31.5
Slab_Grave_EIA_1: 11.5

But in the IA it seems this kind of profile develops 4 samples have it now.

sample: Liushui IA2:C1246
distance: 1.6698
Maitan_MLBA_Alakul: 33.5
Slab_Grave_EIA_1: 9.5
Aigyrzhal_BA: 57


Yes, these definitely are not the same as those Bactrian samples, on qpAdm one had 0 EA and have heavy BMAC ancestry.  So which was the bigger language in this region Khotanese or Tocharian??

[Dewsloth]

The new genetic history of the Balkans paper includes the following three columns in its supplement, and it's the greatest thing ever.  
It should have always been done and every paper going forward ought to have this:

Y haplogroup in terminal mutation notation based on Yfull 8.09 (manually curated automated calls)
eg. R-L20
Mutational path to terminal mutation notation based on Yfull 8.09 (manually curated automated calls)
eg. R1b,R-M269,R-L23,R-L52,R-L151,R-P312,R-U152,R-L2,R-Z258,R-Z367,R-L20
Y haplogroup in ISOGG v15.73 notation (manually curated automated calls)
eg. R1b1a1b1a1a2b1a1

[Webb]

The new genetic history of the Balkans paper includes the following three columns in its supplement, and it's the greatest thing ever.  
It should have always been done and every paper going forward ought to have this:

Y haplogroup in terminal mutation notation based on Yfull 8.09 (manually curated automated calls)
eg. R-L20
Mutational path to terminal mutation notation based on Yfull 8.09 (manually curated automated calls)
eg. R1b,R-M269,R-L23,R-L52,R-L151,R-P312,R-U152,R-L2,R-Z258,R-Z367,R-L20
Y haplogroup in ISOGG v15.73 notation (manually curated automated calls)
eg. R1b1a1b1a1a2b1a1

I just downloaded the supplemental spreadsheet, and you are right.  You don't have to copy and paste the final snp call and do a google search to find the path.  So there are two DF99 samples, one DF27 sample which is down to L617, and one L21 sample.

[Pylsteen]

The new genetic history of the Balkans paper includes the following three columns in its supplement, and it's the greatest thing ever.  
It should have always been done and every paper going forward ought to have this:

As long as they report more than just the ISOGG R1b1b1b1b1b11b1b1b1b1b1b1b1b1b11bb123 notation, I'm fine.

[Awood]

Are there any new samples from Zaghunluke here for R1b, or is everything on the FTDNA aDNA tree already?

[pegasus]

Are there any new samples from Zaghunluke here for R1b, or is everything on the FTDNA aDNA tree already?

I think the only new male sample afaik , is the one with R1a line which Andar/CM posted,  common in modern day Iranic speaking populations.

[RCO]

DNA News from Nalchik, Russia, situated at an altitude of 550 meters (1,800 ft) in the foothills of the Caucasus Mountains

Kristina Zhur , who works in the same laboratory of the Federal Research Center “Fundamental Foundations of Biotechnology” of the Russian Academy of Sciences, spoke about a paleogenetic study that made it possible to test the hypothesis about human migration routes. We examined a tooth from a burial ground dating from 5197–4850 BC. near the city of Nalchik. This burial ground is one of the earliest known burial complexes in the Caucasus. Scientists compared DNA isolated from the tooth with other ancient genomes to choose one of three hypotheses for the origin of man from Nalchik. First hypothesis: this is a descendant of the most ancient population of the Caucasus. Second: this is a representative of the first wave of settlers who have a genetic component of Iranian or Anatolian farmers. Third: this is a representative of the steppe Eneolithic population, mixed with the local Caucasian one.

The position of the genome from Nalchik in the space of principal components turned out to be intermediate between the steppe and the Caucasus, which indicates contacts with the population of the steppe. The authors suggested that by about 5000 BC. (and perhaps earlier), a population appeared in the North Caucasus that combined the gene pool of Caucasian hunter-gatherers with the gene pool of the early Pre-Pottery Neolithic, probably from the territory of Northern Mesopotamia - Zagros, and this population subsequently interacted with eastern hunter-gatherers from the steppe. This assumption fits into the pattern of the major migration flows that brought agriculture from the Middle East to Europe. Genetics have shown that migrations of farmers could also spread through the Caucasus. They emphasize that this assumption does not contradict archaeological data.

https://pcr.news/novosti/md-2023-paleogenomika/
--------------------
In my opinion the Southern CHG-IRAN Proto-Indo-European Arrival/Invasion in the Steppe.

[Alain]

I know that certain surnames in GB are an indication of a Sarmatian origin and also carry Z93 - Z2123, Michał posted it on Anthrogenica a long time ago.

[Tomenable]

Do we have the genotype data from this study in geno or bed/bim/fam formats?:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...2222018267

"Genetic admixture and language shift in the medieval Volga-Oka interfluve"

[Anglesqueville]

Do we have the genotype data from this study in geno or bed/bim/fam formats?:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...2222018267

"Genetic admixture and language shift in the medieval Volga-Oka interfluve"

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/y2rmo3sc5...dvg7q&dl=0

I think it's this file, which I've been using for months already. Unfortunately, I don't remember who we owe this file to, and therefore who we should thank. It doesn't look like an official file has been released as of yet, but I could be wrong.

[Alain]

In some points there are already differences between CW and Yamnaya but also interaction, such as Bell Beaker groups from Moravia and Hungary that mixed with Yamnaya groups in the Tisza area or some mtdna haplogroups can be found in early CWC groups, Yamnaya and even Afansievo , maybe David will soon realize that CWC and Yamnaya have a common source but culturally they are definitely different as CWC/BB and their offshoots had rich graves and their society was responsible for educating elite in contrast to Yamnaya which was more egalitarian and from an ecological point of view only steppe areas were settled and steppe herders remained and CWC/BB and their offshoots also settled other ecological areas and adapted and made it suitable.

[Pylsteen]

So what papers are you all looking forward to next year? What do you hope to get more insights into?

Waiting for more Frankish data.