Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA (DISCUSSION ONLY)

[Kelmendasi]

Its a bit surprising that the exotic population seems to have survived for so longer after the Slavs. I thought Bulgaria was more homogeneeous then, but apparently the Byzantine rule might have preserved the "Imperial Roman norm" of a highly panmixed, multi-ethnic population.

Indeed. Based on his comments it appears as if following the Hellenistic period non-local genetic profiles predominated in southern Bulgaria. He states that both Philippopolis and Serdika had largely non-local populations with a substantial Anatolian element. The differences between northern and southern Bulgaria allegedly only began to diminish during the 13th and 14th centuries CE.

[elflock]

@rafc The absolute entirety of "M241" found in prehistoric Europe is under European clade L283. J-Z2432>>>Z2449 is irrelevant, matter of fact in Roma too.

[Riverman]

Its a bit surprising that the exotic population seems to have survived for so longer after the Slavs. I thought Bulgaria was more homogeneeous then, but apparently the Byzantine rule might have preserved the "Imperial Roman norm" of a highly panmixed, multi-ethnic population.

Indeed. Based on his comments it appears as if following the Hellenistic period non-local genetic profiles predominated in southern Bulgaria. He states that both Philippopolis and Serdika had largely non-local populations with a substantial Anatolian element. The differences between northern and southern Bulgaria allegedly only began to diminish during the 13th and 14th centuries CE.

And it looks like these exotic inhabitants of the towns and cities didn't survive very well into the later periods, going after the modern data. That's something to note as well, that later Slavs and Vlachs seems to have taken over, and largely replaced whatever remained of these Byzantine era townsfolks to a large degree.

[elflock]

He wouldn't assume those J2 coming from Anatolia if they were all J-L283. He might be wrong with some of his conclusions, but that's too grave of a mistake to make. The appearance of J and exotic ancestry being associated, according to his post, with recent arrivals from the East. And he specifically talks about Persian-Pakistani refugees from the Islamic conquest, which would be an ideal fit for early Roma in my opinion.
Probably his reference to later Roma samples refers to the later periods, when their population was consolidated?

He thinks the majority of modern day Bulgarian "M241" is not J2b-L283. That is a dead giveaway he doesn't even know what J2b-L283 is let alone its aDNA distribution. I don't doubt lots of J2a-L24+ samples were also present in CE Thrace. That individual solely mentioned macrohaplogroup designations such as "J1" or "J2" and later on "M241". West-Central Paleo-Balkan J2b-L283 being found in the territory of modern day Bulgaria during 1000 CE is absolutely realistic.

[J Man]

Not a specialist, but aren't those Roma then?

Why on earth would Roma carry in abundance Paleo-Balkan J2b-L283? Given that BG forum poster's overall non existing foreknowledge on the main Paleo-Balkan lineages, matter of fact uniparental analysis in general, his conclusions can be discarded. Zero sense in that individual's posts.

Well the L283 was your assumption, he just wrote M241. Since that group and R2 are present in India, and Roma come from India to the Balkans around 1000CE, doesn't seem so far-fetched. But if these groups don't appear in Roma, probably not.

The main Roma Y-DNA clades are under H1, J2a-M67, J2a-M92 and I1......It is more likely that both the L and R2 samples from these old sites in Bulgaria come from Anatolia or Armenia since both of those haplogroups exist in not so small numbers there even today.

[pegasus]

Made by Arain23IN on Wikipedia, that username reminds me of someone who may have had a presence on Anthrogenica and/or Brown Pundits? Sharing in this thread because I felt like it should be shared on GenArchivist.

The Ancient North Siberian and Ancient North Eurasian lineage(s). Formation and ancestral components are based on Vallini et al. 2022 (https://academic.oup.com/gbe/article/14/...45/6563828). The map is taken from: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...(drab).png

Proportions between west and east are 
ANS
70% Kostenki
30% east Eurasian

Its a nice map but the proportions are way off for some of those groups. @Kale what is East Eurasian component in these groups as per your models?

[Trojet]

Not a specialist, but aren't those Roma then?

Why on earth would Roma carry in abundance Paleo-Balkan J2b-L283? Given that BG forum poster's overall non existing foreknowledge on the main Paleo-Balkan lineages, matter of fact uniparental analysis in general, his conclusions can be discarded. Zero sense in that individual's posts.

Well the L283 was your assumption, he just wrote M241. Since that group and R2 are present in India, and Roma come from India to the Balkans around 1000CE, doesn't seem so far-fetched. But if these groups don't appear in Roma, probably not.

I have yet to see a single Balkan sample which belongs to J-M241>Z2432 (i.e. the "South Asian" branch), including any Bulgarian. They're all under the "European" J-L283. So if he saying there is "J-M241" starting 1000 CE in Bulgaria, they are most certainly J-L283. Which would be expected given what we know about this haplogrup, as has already been pointed out..

[rafc]

I have yet to see a single Balkan sample which belongs to J-M241>Z2432 (i.e. the "South Asian" branch), including any Bulgarian. They're all under the "European" J-L283. So if he saying there is "J-M241" starting 1000 CE in Bulgaria, they are most certainly J-L283. Which would be expected given what we know about this haplogrup, as has already been pointed out..

Any idea why L283 might be increasing in Bulgaria around 1000CE?

[old europe]

A genomic history of the North Pontic Region from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age

Abstract

The north Black Sea (Pontic) Region was the nexus of the farmers of Old Europe and the foragers and pastoralists of the Eurasian steppe, and the source of waves of migrants that expanded deep into Europe. We report genome-wide data from 78 prehistoric North Pontic individuals to understand the genetic makeup of the people involved in these migrations and discover the reasons for their success. First, we show that native North Pontic foragers had ancestry not only from Balkan and Eastern hunter-gatherers but also from European farmers and, occasionally, Caucasus hunter-gatherers. More dramatic inflows ensued during the Eneolithic, when migrants from the Caucasus-Lower Volga area moved westward, bypassing the local foragers to mix with Trypillian farmers advancing eastward. People of the Usatove archaeological group in the Northwest Pontic were formed ca. 4500 BCE with an equal measure of ancestry from the two expanding groups. A different Caucasus-Lower Volga group, moving westward in a distinct but temporally overlapping wave, avoided the farmers altogether, and blended with the foragers instead to form the people of the Serednii Stih archaeological complex. A third wave of expansion occurred when Yamna descendants of the Serednii Stih forming ca. 4000 BCE expanded during the Early Bronze Age (3300 BCE). The temporal gap between Serednii Stih and the Yamna expansion is bridged by a genetically Yamna individual from Mykhailivka in Ukraine (3635-3383 BCE), a site of uninterrupted archaeological continuity across the Eneolithic-Bronze Age transition, and the likely epicenter of Yamna formation. Each of these three waves propagated distinctive ancestries while also incorporating outsiders during its advance, a flexible strategy forged in the North Pontic region that may explain its peoples' outsized success in spreading their genes and culture across Eurasia.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...89600v1?ct


Most impoprtant: Sredni Stog is a mix of Ukraine neolithic ( Middle Don) and Progress like with the first component around 40% on average. Basically they are confirming even if they do not admit that the results from Allentoft

Important take for Corded Ware

An individual from Durankulak in Bulgaria is of particular interest as he possesses the “Corded Ware”-related R-M417 Y-haplogroup and a similar mix of Core Yamna and Globular Amphora
ancestry as the Corded Ware (but with more ancestry from the Globular Amphora). This individual may stem from the admixture zone between the Core Yamna and the Globular
Amphora from which the characteristic 3:1 blend2,31 of the two components in the ancestry of the Corded Ware is derived

[rafc]

A genomic history of the North Pontic Region from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age

Abstract

The north Black Sea (Pontic) Region was the nexus of the farmers of Old Europe and the foragers and pastoralists of the Eurasian steppe, and the source of waves of migrants that expanded deep into Europe. We report genome-wide data from 78 prehistoric North Pontic individuals to understand the genetic makeup of the people involved in these migrations and discover the reasons for their success. First, we show that native North Pontic foragers had ancestry not only from Balkan and Eastern hunter-gatherers but also from European farmers and, occasionally, Caucasus hunter-gatherers. More dramatic inflows ensued during the Eneolithic, when migrants from the Caucasus-Lower Volga area moved westward, bypassing the local foragers to mix with Trypillian farmers advancing eastward. People of the Usatove archaeological group in the Northwest Pontic were formed ca. 4500 BCE with an equal measure of ancestry from the two expanding groups. A different Caucasus-Lower Volga group, moving westward in a distinct but temporally overlapping wave, avoided the farmers altogether, and blended with the foragers instead to form the people of the Serednii Stih archaeological complex. A third wave of expansion occurred when Yamna descendants of the Serednii Stih forming ca. 4000 BCE expanded during the Early Bronze Age (3300 BCE). The temporal gap between Serednii Stih and the Yamna expansion is bridged by a genetically Yamna individual from Mykhailivka in Ukraine (3635-3383 BCE), a site of uninterrupted archaeological continuity across the Eneolithic-Bronze Age transition, and the likely epicenter of Yamna formation. Each of these three waves propagated distinctive ancestries while also incorporating outsiders during its advance, a flexible strategy forged in the North Pontic region that may explain its peoples' outsized success in spreading their genes and culture across Eurasia.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...89600v1?ct

It makes sense they would post the paper before the talk next week. There's a good chance the second part of this study (with the Yamnaya samples) will also appear in the next 7 days. Fingers crossed!

[Southpaw]

A genomic history of the North Pontic Region from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age

Abstract

The north Black Sea (Pontic) Region was the nexus of the farmers of Old Europe and the foragers and pastoralists of the Eurasian steppe, and the source of waves of migrants that expanded deep into Europe. We report genome-wide data from 78 prehistoric North Pontic individuals to understand the genetic makeup of the people involved in these migrations and discover the reasons for their success. First, we show that native North Pontic foragers had ancestry not only from Balkan and Eastern hunter-gatherers but also from European farmers and, occasionally, Caucasus hunter-gatherers. More dramatic inflows ensued during the Eneolithic, when migrants from the Caucasus-Lower Volga area moved westward, bypassing the local foragers to mix with Trypillian farmers advancing eastward. People of the Usatove archaeological group in the Northwest Pontic were formed ca. 4500 BCE with an equal measure of ancestry from the two expanding groups. A different Caucasus-Lower Volga group, moving westward in a distinct but temporally overlapping wave, avoided the farmers altogether, and blended with the foragers instead to form the people of the Serednii Stih archaeological complex. A third wave of expansion occurred when Yamna descendants of the Serednii Stih forming ca. 4000 BCE expanded during the Early Bronze Age (3300 BCE). The temporal gap between Serednii Stih and the Yamna expansion is bridged by a genetically Yamna individual from Mykhailivka in Ukraine (3635-3383 BCE), a site of uninterrupted archaeological continuity across the Eneolithic-Bronze Age transition, and the likely epicenter of Yamna formation. Each of these three waves propagated distinctive ancestries while also incorporating outsiders during its advance, a flexible strategy forged in the North Pontic region that may explain its peoples' outsized success in spreading their genes and culture across Eurasia.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...89600v1?ct

It makes sense they would post the paper before the talk next week. There's a good chance the second part of this study (with the Yamnaya samples) will also appear in the next 7 days. Fingers crossed!

We have E-M78/E-L618 potential E-V13 from Proto-Usatovo Kurgans, alongside another R1a. Both from Mayaky Proto-Usatovo Ukraine?!

[RCO]

Let's open a thread !
A genomic history of the North Pontic Region from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age

I have several questions !

[miquirumba]

A genomic history of the North Pontic Region from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age

Abstract

The north Black Sea (Pontic) Region was the nexus of the farmers of Old Europe and the foragers and pastoralists of the Eurasian steppe, and the source of waves of migrants that expanded deep into Europe. We report genome-wide data from 78 prehistoric North Pontic individuals to understand the genetic makeup of the people involved in these migrations and discover the reasons for their success. First, we show that native North Pontic foragers had ancestry not only from Balkan and Eastern hunter-gatherers but also from European farmers and, occasionally, Caucasus hunter-gatherers. More dramatic inflows ensued during the Eneolithic, when migrants from the Caucasus-Lower Volga area moved westward, bypassing the local foragers to mix with Trypillian farmers advancing eastward. People of the Usatove archaeological group in the Northwest Pontic were formed ca. 4500 BCE with an equal measure of ancestry from the two expanding groups. A different Caucasus-Lower Volga group, moving westward in a distinct but temporally overlapping wave, avoided the farmers altogether, and blended with the foragers instead to form the people of the Serednii Stih archaeological complex. A third wave of expansion occurred when Yamna descendants of the Serednii Stih forming ca. 4000 BCE expanded during the Early Bronze Age (3300 BCE). The temporal gap between Serednii Stih and the Yamna expansion is bridged by a genetically Yamna individual from Mykhailivka in Ukraine (3635-3383 BCE), a site of uninterrupted archaeological continuity across the Eneolithic-Bronze Age transition, and the likely epicenter of Yamna formation. Each of these three waves propagated distinctive ancestries while also incorporating outsiders during its advance, a flexible strategy forged in the North Pontic region that may explain its peoples' outsized success in spreading their genes and culture across Eurasia.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...89600v1?ct

It makes sense they would post the paper before the talk next week. There's a good chance the second part of this study (with the Yamnaya samples) will also appear in the next 7 days. Fingers crossed!

I see bad interpreted paternal haplogroup in supplement PDF i.e. Yas24/40 is dated circa 5,000 BCE and ISOGG prediction is R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a3a2 a R-L21 subclade from Bronze Age

[Capsian20]

A genomic history of the North Pontic Region from the Neolithic to the Bronze Age

Abstract

The north Black Sea (Pontic) Region was the nexus of the farmers of Old Europe and the foragers and pastoralists of the Eurasian steppe, and the source of waves of migrants that expanded deep into Europe. We report genome-wide data from 78 prehistoric North Pontic individuals to understand the genetic makeup of the people involved in these migrations and discover the reasons for their success. First, we show that native North Pontic foragers had ancestry not only from Balkan and Eastern hunter-gatherers but also from European farmers and, occasionally, Caucasus hunter-gatherers. More dramatic inflows ensued during the Eneolithic, when migrants from the Caucasus-Lower Volga area moved westward, bypassing the local foragers to mix with Trypillian farmers advancing eastward. People of the Usatove archaeological group in the Northwest Pontic were formed ca. 4500 BCE with an equal measure of ancestry from the two expanding groups. A different Caucasus-Lower Volga group, moving westward in a distinct but temporally overlapping wave, avoided the farmers altogether, and blended with the foragers instead to form the people of the Serednii Stih archaeological complex. A third wave of expansion occurred when Yamna descendants of the Serednii Stih forming ca. 4000 BCE expanded during the Early Bronze Age (3300 BCE). The temporal gap between Serednii Stih and the Yamna expansion is bridged by a genetically Yamna individual from Mykhailivka in Ukraine (3635-3383 BCE), a site of uninterrupted archaeological continuity across the Eneolithic-Bronze Age transition, and the likely epicenter of Yamna formation. Each of these three waves propagated distinctive ancestries while also incorporating outsiders during its advance, a flexible strategy forged in the North Pontic region that may explain its peoples' outsized success in spreading their genes and culture across Eurasia.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...89600v1?ct

It makes sense they would post the paper before the talk next week. There's a good chance the second part of this study (with the Yamnaya samples) will also appear in the next 7 days. Fingers crossed!

We have E-M78/E-L618 potential E-V13 from Proto-Usatovo Kurgans, alongside another R1a. Both from Mayaky Proto-Usatovo Ukraine?!

for sample I3151 isnt new , its found in this paper

[old europe]

Hre is the profile of the Durankulak R1a sample. It is overloaded of GAC dna


For this individual (I1456 / 3500-3000 BCE) from Durankulak only a single 2-way feasible model exists
that involves a fairly even mix of Core Yamna (~45%) and Globular Amphora (~55%) ancestries (Table
S 3). Models with Trypillian (p=1e-5) or YUN_CA (p=3e-13) alternative sources of European farmer
ancestry both fail.