Genetic Genealogy & Ancient DNA (DISCUSSION ONLY)

[Megalophias]

Genomic analyses correspond with deep persistence of peoples of Blackfoot Confederacy from glacial times.

DorothyFirst Rider, Annabel Crop Eared Wolf, John Murray, Alida de Flamingh,  Andre Luiz Campelo dos Santos,François Lanoë, Maria N. Zedeño, Michael DeGiorgio,  John Lindo, Ripan S. Malhi

Mutually beneficial partnerships between genomics researchers and North American Indigenous Nations are rare yet becoming more common. Here, we present one such partnership that provides insight into the peopling of the Americas and furnishes another line of evidence that can be used to further treaty and Indigenous rights. We show that the genomics  of  sampled  individuals  from  the  Blackfoot  Confederacy  belong  to  a  previously  undescribed  ancient lineage that diverged from other genomic lineages in the Americas in Late Pleistocene times. Using multiple  complementary  forms  of  knowledge,  we  provide  a  scenario  for  Blackfoot  population  history  that  fits  with  oral tradition and provides a plausible model for the evolutionary process of the peopling of the America

https://www.science.org/doi/epdf/10.1126/sciadv.adl6595

This is a pretty disappointing paper. They really do not test or investigate any alternatives to their hypothesis. The TreeMix and qpGraph analyses are done with no migrations only, and they ignore uniparental markers entirely.

[VladMC]

Kristian Kristiansen: DNA and European prehistory
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyxNP4ZZItg

[J Man]

Some interesting info from a big upcoming Bulgarian ancient DNA paper....Use an online translator such as Google Translate.

https://www.forumnauka.bg/topic/26261-25...te-blgari/

[parasar]

Some interesting info from a big upcoming Bulgarian ancient DNA paper....Use an online translator such as Google Translate.

https://www.forumnauka.bg/topic/26261-25...te-blgari/

Some surprising nuggets:
Translated-
"Another curiosity of the research is the presence of a massive Pakistani-Iranian-Afghan population (diaspora?) in central southern Bulgaria, which was formed in the late Roman-early Byzantine era in central southern Bulgaria and in k-na s/ka also became part of the Bulgarian ethnicity over time."

[Kelmendasi]

Some surprising nuggets:
Translated-
"Another curiosity of the research is the presence of a massive Pakistani-Iranian-Afghan population (diaspora?) in central southern Bulgaria, which was formed in the late Roman-early Byzantine era in central southern Bulgaria and in k-na s/ka also became part of the Bulgarian ethnicity over time."

Seems to me as if this is at least partly based on the alleged presence of haplogroups such as R2 and L albeit we would need to know their specific subclades to know for sure if they are indeed Central or South Asian branches. Based on this post, it seems as if some of the R2 discovered is R2-FGC50368 which does indeed appear to have a more South Asian distribution. Apparently such haplogroups will appear among Bogomils which is very interesting.

[corrigendum]

Some surprising nuggets:
Translated-
"Another curiosity of the research is the presence of a massive Pakistani-Iranian-Afghan population (diaspora?) in central southern Bulgaria, which was formed in the late Roman-early Byzantine era in central southern Bulgaria and in k-na s/ka also became part of the Bulgarian ethnicity over time."

Seems to me as if this is at least partly based on the alleged presence of haplogroups such as R2 and L albeit we would need to know their specific subclades to know for sure if they are indeed Central or South Asian branches. Based on this post, it seems as if some of the R2 discovered is R2-FGC50368 which does indeed appear to have a more South Asian distribution. Apparently such haplogroups will appear among Bogomils which is very interesting.

There's a simpler reason for some of his claims:
https://www.forumnauka.bg/topic/26261-25...ent-594396

He seems to think that J-M241 in Bulgaria is related to ME populations, while almost all of it comes from Paleo-Balkan J-L283.

[Kelmendasi]

He seems to think that J-M241 in Bulgaria is related to ME populations, while almost all of it comes from Paleo-Balkan J-L283.

Judging from his posts it also seems that there was an 'explosive' expansion of J2b-M241 (most certainly M241>L283 for the most part) into Bulgaria around the 1000s CE. He also states that these Illyrian-related branches appear in the same sites alongside clades such as R2-FGC50368.

[pelop]

Some surprising nuggets:
Translated-
"Another curiosity of the research is the presence of a massive Pakistani-Iranian-Afghan population (diaspora?) in central southern Bulgaria, which was formed in the late Roman-early Byzantine era in central southern Bulgaria and in k-na s/ka also became part of the Bulgarian ethnicity over time."

Seems to me as if this is at least partly based on the alleged presence of haplogroups such as R2 and L albeit we would need to know their specific subclades to know for sure if they are indeed Central or South Asian branches. Based on this post, it seems as if some of the R2 discovered is R2-FGC50368 which does indeed appear to have a more South Asian distribution. Apparently such haplogroups will appear among Bogomils which is very interesting.

Well, a big issue with their theory is that the "southern" ancestry in both modern Bulgarians and medieval Bulgarian samples is not Pakistani or Indian:

Target: BGR_Veliko_Tarnovo_MA:I17980
Distance: 1.2073% / 0.01207254 | R4P
36.6 HRV_Vinkovci_MA
30.8 TUR_Aegean_Mugla_Camandras_Dalagöz_Rom
22.6 ARM_Lori_Berd_LateUrartian_A
10.0 HRV_Trogir_Byz_o

Target: BGR_Ryahovets_MA:I10548
Distance: 1.3020% / 0.01302002 | R4P
42.8 SRB_IA
25.4 MKD_Anc_o1
22.0 Baltic_LTU_Marvele
9.8 KAZ_Zevakinskiy_BA

Target: Bulgarian
Distance: 0.4729% / 0.00472902 | R4P
31.2 TUR_Marmara_Iznik_Y.kapi_Byz
30.4 RUS_Sunghir_MA
27.4 MNE_Doclea_Bjelovine
11.0 UKR_Cimmerian_o

A much more plausible explanation for the appearance of Anatolian-related ancestry after 1000 AD (if it is indeed as sudden as they make it appear, which I have some reservations about) is the Byzantine victory over the First Bulgarian Empire that happened during that period.

[rafc]

He seems to think that J-M241 in Bulgaria is related to ME populations, while almost all of it comes from Paleo-Balkan J-L283.

Judging from his posts it also seems that there was an 'explosive' expansion of J2b-M241 (most certainly M241>L283 for the most part) into Bulgaria around the 1000s CE. He also states that these Illyrian-related branches appear in the same sites alongside clades such as R2-FGC50368.

Not a specialist, but aren't those Roma then?

[elflock]

He seems to think that J-M241 in Bulgaria is related to ME populations, while almost all of it comes from Paleo-Balkan J-L283.

Judging from his posts it also seems that there was an 'explosive' expansion of J2b-M241 (most certainly M241>L283 for the most part) into Bulgaria around the 1000s CE. He also states that these Illyrian-related branches appear in the same sites alongside clades such as R2-FGC50368.

Not a specialist, but aren't those Roma then?

Why on earth would Roma carry in abundance Paleo-Balkan J2b-L283? Given that BG forum poster's overall non existing foreknowledge on the main Paleo-Balkan lineages, matter of fact uniparental analysis in general, his conclusions can be discarded. Zero sense in that individual's posts.

[Kelmendasi]

Not a specialist, but aren't those Roma then?

According to this post medieval Roma samples from Bulgaria were also sequenced and they allegedly had no L or R2. From what I have gathered from posts such as this one these haplogroups (L and R2) were carried by the Bogomils. It could very well be that some of these haplogroups (particularly clades of L) expanded from West Asia rather than from further south-east; such branches do exist in the modern Balkans.

The J2b-M241(>L283?) certainly arrived with west-central Balkan groups. It would be extremely interesting if some belonged to Albanian-related branches since there is evidence of Albanians in Bulgaria during the 11th century CE - such as the Paulician (a sect related to Bogomilism) leader Leka.

[rafc]

Judging from his posts it also seems that there was an 'explosive' expansion of J2b-M241 (most certainly M241>L283 for the most part) into Bulgaria around the 1000s CE. He also states that these Illyrian-related branches appear in the same sites alongside clades such as R2-FGC50368.

Not a specialist, but aren't those Roma then?

Why on earth would Roma carry in abundance Paleo-Balkan J2b-L283? Given that BG forum poster's overall non existing foreknowledge on the main Paleo-Balkan lineages, matter of fact uniparental analysis in general, his conclusions can be discarded. Zero sense in that individual's posts.

Well the L283 was your assumption, he just wrote M241. Since that group and R2 are present in India, and Roma come from India to the Balkans around 1000CE, doesn't seem so far-fetched. But if these groups don't appear in Roma, probably not.

[pelop]

Not a specialist, but aren't those Roma then?

It wouldn't be very surprising if we found Romani individuals in the medieval Balkans (we know they were present and we've seen them in medieval Albania) but their theory that it was "Indian mystics" who introduced Bogomilism to Bulgaria seems... highly speculative.

[Riverman]

Not a specialist, but aren't those Roma then?

Why on earth would Roma carry in abundance Paleo-Balkan J2b-L283? Given that BG forum poster's overall non existing foreknowledge on the main Paleo-Balkan lineages, matter of fact uniparental analysis in general, his conclusions can be discarded. Zero sense in that individual's posts.

Well the L283 was your assumption, he just wrote M241. Since that group and R2 are present in India, and Roma come from India to the Balkans around 1000CE, doesn't seem so far-fetched. But if these groups don't appear in Roma, probably not.

He wouldn't assume those J2 coming from Anatolia if they were all J-L283. He might be wrong with some of his conclusions, but that's too grave of a mistake to make. The appearance of J and exotic ancestry being associated, according to his post, with recent arrivals from the East. And he specifically talks about Persian-Pakistani refugees from the Islamic conquest, which would be an ideal fit for early Roma in my opinion.
Probably his reference to later Roma samples refers to the later periods, when their population was consolidated?

A similar problem he has with E-V13 and Thracians, because he seems to mix up different periods and contexts a bit or isn't sure how the earlier samples can be put into an appropriate context.

Its a bit surprising that the exotic population seems to have survived for so longer after the Slavs. I thought Bulgaria was more homogeneeous then, but apparently the Byzantine rule might have preserved the "Imperial Roman norm" of a highly panmixed, multi-ethnic population.

[Riverman]

Not a specialist, but aren't those Roma then?

It wouldn't be very surprising if we found Romani individuals in the medieval Balkans (we know they were present and we've seen them in medieval Albania) but their theory that it was "Indian mystics" who introduced Bogomilism to Bulgaria seems... highly speculative.

If that's something they claim, they should have good evidence in favour of these claims. Like they could find burials associated with Bogomil attributes which show increased levels of admixture and lineages specific to a specific world region. That I would consider solid evidence.