About Proto-Germanic

[Rodoorn]

Ok leave sloage and slaughter aside

slay (v.)
Middle English slēn, "strike, beat, strike so as to kill, commit murder," from Old English slean "to smite, strike, beat," also "to kill with a weapon, slaughter" (class VI strong verb; past tense sloh, slog, past participle slagen), from Proto-Germanic *slahanan "to hit" (source also of Old Norse and Old Frisian sla, Danish slaa, Middle Dutch slaen, Dutch slaan, Old High German slahan, German schlagen, Gothic slahan "to strike"). The Germanic words are said to be from PIE root *slak- "to strike" (source also of Middle Irish past participle slactha "struck," slacc "sword"), but, given certain phonetic difficulties and that the only cognates are Celtic, Boutkan says the evidences "point to a North European substratum word."

Etymology online
https://www.etymonline.com/word/slay#etymonline_v_23655

[Anglesqueville]

Fri. "luu" likely (?) comes from OFri. liud n. 'people', OS liud m. 'people < PGmc *leudi- m. 'man; people' < PIE. *h1leudh·i- . (see Germ. Leute).
FYI about PCelt. *slowgo as a Celto-Balto-Slavic isogloss on PIE. *slowgho- 'retinue', there is another hypothesis that derives the Balto-Slavic words (Lit. služǫ, "to serve") from PIE root *ḱlew- "to listen".

[Rodoorn]

Did the old Frisii of IA and Roman times ever spoke proto-Germanic?
Tentative answer: no.

Did the old NE Dutch of BA ever spoke pre-Germanic?
Tentative answer: yes.

In Koch (2020) this is stated about the Cimbri of Denmark:
"A block of early historical evidence pointing towards contact between speakers of Germanic and Celtic in the Late La Tène Iron Age centres on the documented activities of a group known as Cimbri."

I think this applies even more to the old Frisii. For this we can consult Peter Schrijver (2017), he states plainly that the Frisians of the Roman period were speaking North Sea Celtic, closely related to Brittonic and Gaulic. This only changed during the migration period with the influx of the Anglo-Saxons. According to Schrijver, Anglo-Frisian or North Sea Germanic was a language of Celts who tried to speak Anglo-Saxon Germanic. He bases this on the vowel system of Anglo-Frisian, which according to him shows a consistency with Celtic (Brittonic/Gaulic).

And where Koch in the case of the Cimbri: The recorded names of the Cimbri's leaders—Lugius, Boiorix, and Gaesorix—are all unambiguously Celtic. We also have the Frisian chieftains Mallorix and Verritus who visited Rome under Nero, 'which names make sense in Celtic' according to Schrijver.

This is IA and Roman times. But what about BA times? Mark that we go to the higher sandy grounds called Drenthe and Twente in the NE part. And exactly these names play a part in Schrijver's argumentation.

"A similar development odf *s to *h but with subsequent loss in the position between vowels may account for the Dutch county names Drenthe, older Threant (820 copy 10th century) from pre germanic *Tri-sant, which is strikinly similar to Romano-British Trisantona, which survives in British river names such as:Trent, Tarrant, Trannon. The meaning of this name, and therefore its etymology and Celticity, is unknown, but the existence of similarity formed Tuihanti (AD222-235, Künzel et al 1988, 353) the oldest form of the Dutch county named Twente, strongly suggest that they stem from compounds of the nummerals *dwi, 'two' and *tri, 'three', followed by an unknown word *sant. The development of the initial *d and *t of these numerals to t- and th- in Tuihanti and Threant, respectively, betrays the later Germanicization of these forms. The development of *s to *h is certainly not Germanic."

I stressed pre- Germanic because imo there is evidence that Drenthe was the most NW ern outpost of the Unetice koiné like I showed in a previous posting.

Then a hint of Kuhn's Nordwestblock (1962) comes into play. Wollfgang Meid 'evaluated' this theory in 1986. He stressed:

-  the close relationship to (pre) Italic
- *p- (and other shutter sounds) are partly not shifted in NW Germany names
- the existence of a -sí-suffix;
- apa in river names
- the suffix -andr-

The *p in particular has been preserved in West Germanic (English, Dutch) for intimate, vulgar words such as poop, pee, etc

Does this preclude a pre-Germanic? No. In addition to being the most northwestern outpost of the Unetice koiné, NE Netherlands in BA was also a mix of Single Grave Culture and Bell Beakers. Not only Kuhn and Meid but also Euler (2009, 2021) underlines the relationship of pre-Germanic with pre-Italic.

My assumption is that the area between Rhine and Weser has remained stuck in a kind of pre-Germanic groove for a long time, may be in a kind of C-G Koch modus? And that it did not participate in the Grimm law or the first Germanic sound shift! So it probably did not take part in the transition to a form of proto-Germanic (in IA). With regard to the IA/Roman period it is also important to note that the coastal area, or also called "terps" area, was pre-eminently oriented towards the Gallic and British areas. As later on the Gallo-Romans along the Rhine. Until the more northern North Sea areas that were populated by the Cimbri...and then the circle is complete again

[Anglesqueville]

Rodoorn ^^: I see in your latest posts a real effort to bring you closer to historical linguistics. It is an excellent thing. I wish I could respond to your very last post. But with these questions of para-languages (in the sense of historical linguistics) and very primitive pre-languages, we enter ghostly lands, if I dare to express myself that way. Moreover, Schrijver recognizes in the text you cite that he plays with clues on the verge of non-existence. I have no objection in principle to a certain amount of speculation (which I myself indulged in in what I called my Helimski-Schrijver thesis). Simply in this case, it is much too difficult for me.

[Rodoorn]

Rodoorn ^^: I see in your latest posts a real effort to bring you closer to historical linguistics. It is an excellent thing. I wish I could respond to your very last post. But with these questions of para-languages (in the sense of historical linguistics) and very primitive pre-languages, we enter ghostly lands, if I dare to express myself that way. Moreover, Schrijver recognizes in the text you cite that he plays with clues on the verge of non-existence. I have no objection in principle to a certain amount of speculation (which I myself indulged in in what I called my Helimski-Schrijver thesis). Simply in this case, it is much too difficult for me.

Indeed misty I'm fully aware of that, no sources, no evidence remember. But this lasts until.....well the Negau Helmet (450-350 BC), but this is just a tiny sign of proto-Germanic life.

[Rodoorn]

Second attempt to demistify something.....

LBA

Stefan Hesse (2009), I added the names and in blue a sword find, see next:



I move the scene to LBA, and again we go to Drouwen, Drenthe, "Threant".
In EBA we saw a a grave that belonged to the highest ranks of the strictly stratified Unetice culture. In that time it was imo the beginning of a Germanic circuit c.q. network, based on the Unetice koiné.

With regard to LBA we see "mixed signals" in that sense that Threant was part of the Urnfield culture, as showed on the map above. If I'm well most linguist attest a kind of pre or proto Celtic to it......

Nevertheless for Drouwen, Threant this is not the whole story.  See this from JJ Butler (1987,  titled: Drouwen at the end of the Nordic rainbow?)




"Roughly  2  km  southwest  of  the  urnfield,  appa­rently  in  a  low  boggy  spot,  was  ploughed  up, somewhere  around  or  before  1941,  a  bronze  sword with narrow flanged hilt (Grebtungesvaerdmet smaltunge, Schwert mit schmaler Zunge;  fig.  23).  This sword  has  been  in  private  possession  since  its finding, and only became known in 1985; it has not previously  been  published." 

"Once again we have to do with a type characte­ristic  of  the  Scandinavian  Late  Bronze  Age  culture area (fig. 24; Sprockhoff, 1931: pp. 26-35, Taf. 29; Broholm, 1946/49: pp. 32-34, PI. 4; Baudou, 1960, pp.  9-10,  Typ  Ia1,  list  p.  153,  supplementary  to Sprockhoff's list, Karte I). The Danish islands seem to  be  its  primary  centre  of  distribution,  with radiations  to  North  Jutland,  Scania  and  North Germany.  But  its  rarity  in  Northwest  Germany  is striking; until the Drouwen find there was only one example  known  west  of  the  Weser  (Sprockhoff, 1931:  p.  101,  No.  7;  from  Huntlosen,  Amt  Wildeshausen, Oldenburg, found in a Hügelgrab with other, unknown objects).Swords of this type belong traditionally to Period IV. Sprockhoff  (1931:  pp.  28-33)  found  that  a number  of  the  closed  finds  in  which  these  swords occurred  were  of  Period  V  date,  but  Broholm (1946/49) and Baudou (1960) did not follow him in this, at least with respect to the Danish and Swedish finds,  which  they  attribute  uniformly  to  Period  IV. "

--- And surprise surprise it's a sword cc also from Angles' vaginal valhalla: the Malären!!!!  ---- 

"Swords  of  this  type  were  evidently  objects  of considerable  value  in  their  homeland.  Particular evidence of this is the fact that five examples have hilts  decorated  with  gold  leaf,  and  one  with  gold wire.  In  Central  Sweden  (thus  at  the  extreme opposite  end  of  their  distribution)  an  example  was placed  in  a  rich  grave  in  Kung  Bjorns  Hog  near Uppsala, a classic example of a Bronze Age Fürstengrab.  The  Drouwen  sword  is  the  only  Scandinavian sword  known  in  the  Netherlands,  and  one  can presume  that  its  owner  was  a  person  of  no  small importance here."

So a clear sign to me that the Germanic network was still intact! Because certainly swords of these calibre were "gift" goods, the were part of exchange within an elite network.

Hågahögen (Kung Björns Hog) sword an belongings:



What were the consequences for the language. Of course this stays misty, but I guess we are here in Koch's "C-G twilight zone"!? In some manner the Germanic elite had to have ways to understand each other....

[JonikW]

Did the old Frisii of IA and Roman times ever spoke proto-Germanic?
Tentative answer: no.

Did the old NE Dutch of BA ever spoke pre-Germanic?
Tentative answer: yes.

In Koch (2020) this is stated about the Cimbri of Denmark:
"A block of early historical evidence pointing towards contact between speakers of Germanic and Celtic in the Late La Tène Iron Age centres on the documented activities of a group known as Cimbri."

I think this applies even more to the old Frisii. For this we can consult Peter Schrijver (2017), he states plainly that the Frisians of the Roman period were speaking North Sea Celtic, closely related to Brittonic and Gaulic. This only changed during the migration period with the influx of the Anglo-Saxons. According to Schrijver, Anglo-Frisian or North Sea Germanic was a language of Celts who tried to speak Anglo-Saxon Germanic. He bases this on the vowel system of Anglo-Frisian, which according to him shows a consistency with Celtic (Brittonic/Gaulic).

And where Koch in the case of the Cimbri: The recorded names of the Cimbri's leaders—Lugius, Boiorix, and Gaesorix—are all unambiguously Celtic. We also have the Frisian chieftains Mallorix and Verritus who visited Rome under Nero, 'which names make sense in Celtic' according to Schrijver.

This is IA and Roman times. But what about BA times? Mark that we go to the higher sandy grounds called Drenthe and Twente in the NE part. And exactly these names play a part in Schrijver's argumentation.

"A similar development odf *s to *h but with subsequent loss in the position between vowels may account for the Dutch county names Drenthe, older Threant (820 copy 10th century) from pre germanic *Tri-sant, which is strikinly similar to Romano-British Trisantona, which survives in British river names such as:Trent, Tarrant, Trannon. The meaning of this name, and therefore its etymology and Celticity, is unknown, but the existence of similarity formed Tuihanti (AD222-235, Künzel et al 1988, 353) the oldest form of the Dutch county named Twente, strongly suggest that they stem from compounds of the nummerals *dwi, 'two' and *tri, 'three', followed by an unknown word *sant. The development of the initial *d and *t of these numerals to t- and th- in Tuihanti and Threant, respectively, betrays the later Germanicization of these forms. The development of *s to *h is certainly not Germanic."

I stressed pre- Germanic because imo there is evidence that Drenthe was the most NW ern outpost of the Unetice koiné like I showed in a previous posting.

Then a hint of Kuhn's Nordwestblock (1962) comes into play. Wollfgang Meid 'evaluated' this theory in 1986. He stressed:

-  the close relationship to (pre) Italic
- *p- (and other shutter sounds) are partly not shifted in NW Germany names
- the existence of a -sí-suffix;
- apa in river names
- the suffix -andr-

The *p in particular has been preserved in West Germanic (English, Dutch) for intimate, vulgar words such as poop, pee, etc

Does this preclude a pre-Germanic? No. In addition to being the most northwestern outpost of the Unetice koiné, NE Netherlands in BA was also a mix of Single Grave Culture and Bell Beakers. Not only Kuhn and Meid but also Euler (2009, 2021) underlines the relationship of pre-Germanic with pre-Italic.

My assumption is that the area between Rhine and Weser has remained stuck in a kind of pre-Germanic groove for a long time,  may be in a kind of C-G Koch modus?   And that it did not participate in the Grimm law or the first Germanic sound shift! So it probably did not take part in the transition to a form of proto-Germanic (in IA). With regard to the IA/Roman period it is also important to note that the coastal area, or also called "terps" area, was pre-eminently oriented towards the Gallic and British areas. As later on the Gallo-Romans along the Rhine. Until the more northern North Sea areas that were populated by the Cimbri...and then the circle is complete again

Very interesting post. I continue to believe that we do have one piece of epigraphic evidence suggesting that a Germanic language was spoken in Roman period Twente, as part of the cultural package of locals who identified as "Germani." 

I make no claim beyond that statement with this post and agree with your view that the Anglo-Saxon influx changed the genetics of the region. I'm also not claiming that the contents of this post represent irrefutable, cast iron proof of any kind regarding Germanic languages in the area of the Netherlands. We are all free to make what we will of the inscription concerned, which belongs to the Roman period.

Some of you may remember my AG post on this a while back. The following is a lightly edited version of that, copied directly from the relevant entry I later made in my early Germanic sources doc (there are almost 100,000 words there now, incidentally):

Mars Thincsus, Hadrian's Wall, altar dedication (from a shrine dating from the mid-2nd to the early 4th century AD)

"Deo Marti Thincso et duabus Alaisiagis Bede et Fimmilene et N(umini) Aug(usti) Germ(ani) cives Tuihanti v(otum) s(olverunt) l(ibentes) m(erito)."

"To the god Mars Thincsus and the two Alaisiagae, Beda and Fimmilena, and to the Divinity of the Emperor the Germans, being tribesmen of Twenthe, willingly and deservedly fulfilled their vow."

"Mars Thincsus" from the inscription is Mars Thingsus (Mars of the Thing, the word for the Germanic assembly that survives in place names as far away as Iceland). We know that this god of the Thing is the war god Tiw (Týr in Norse mythology), who through "interpretatio romana" becomes the war god Mars in the Roman Empire. Týr and sometimes derivatives of the word Thing have given the name to Tuesday in many Germanic languages (Tuesday for Týr in one example, Dienstag for Thing in another), with dies Martis, the day of Mars, likewise being Tuesday for most Romance speakers.

Tuihanti is likely to be Twente in the Netherlands. Whatever the case, these are soldiers from a part of Germania within the empire, where the Alaisiagae were also worshipped, goddesses whose first followers may have stretched down to the old Belgic Celtic speaking regions. That their primary dedication of the altar was to the war god of the "Thing" and that they called themselves "Germans" and were most likely from Twente is worthy of note.

[Rodoorn]

Did the old Frisii of IA and Roman times ever spoke proto-Germanic?
Tentative answer: no.

Did the old NE Dutch of BA ever spoke pre-Germanic?
Tentative answer: yes.

In Koch (2020) this is stated about the Cimbri of Denmark:
"A block of early historical evidence pointing towards contact between speakers of Germanic and Celtic in the Late La Tène Iron Age centres on the documented activities of a group known as Cimbri."

I think this applies even more to the old Frisii. For this we can consult Peter Schrijver (2017), he states plainly that the Frisians of the Roman period were speaking North Sea Celtic, closely related to Brittonic and Gaulic. This only changed during the migration period with the influx of the Anglo-Saxons. According to Schrijver, Anglo-Frisian or North Sea Germanic was a language of Celts who tried to speak Anglo-Saxon Germanic. He bases this on the vowel system of Anglo-Frisian, which according to him shows a consistency with Celtic (Brittonic/Gaulic).

And where Koch in the case of the Cimbri: The recorded names of the Cimbri's leaders—Lugius, Boiorix, and Gaesorix—are all unambiguously Celtic. We also have the Frisian chieftains Mallorix and Verritus who visited Rome under Nero, 'which names make sense in Celtic' according to Schrijver.

This is IA and Roman times. But what about BA times? Mark that we go to the higher sandy grounds called Drenthe and Twente in the NE part. And exactly these names play a part in Schrijver's argumentation.

"A similar development odf *s to *h but with subsequent loss in the position between vowels may account for the Dutch county names Drenthe, older Threant (820 copy 10th century) from pre germanic *Tri-sant, which is strikinly similar to Romano-British Trisantona, which survives in British river names such as:Trent, Tarrant, Trannon. The meaning of this name, and therefore its etymology and Celticity, is unknown, but the existence of similarity formed Tuihanti (AD222-235, Künzel et al 1988, 353) the oldest form of the Dutch county named Twente, strongly suggest that they stem from compounds of the nummerals *dwi, 'two' and *tri, 'three', followed by an unknown word *sant. The development of the initial *d and *t of these numerals to t- and th- in Tuihanti and Threant, respectively, betrays the later Germanicization of these forms. The development of *s to *h is certainly not Germanic."

I stressed pre- Germanic because imo there is evidence that Drenthe was the most NW ern outpost of the Unetice koiné like I showed in a previous posting.

Then a hint of Kuhn's Nordwestblock (1962) comes into play. Wollfgang Meid 'evaluated' this theory in 1986. He stressed:

-  the close relationship to (pre) Italic
- *p- (and other shutter sounds) are partly not shifted in NW Germany names
- the existence of a -sí-suffix;
- apa in river names
- the suffix -andr-

The *p in particular has been preserved in West Germanic (English, Dutch) for intimate, vulgar words such as poop, pee, etc

Does this preclude a pre-Germanic? No. In addition to being the most northwestern outpost of the Unetice koiné, NE Netherlands in BA was also a mix of Single Grave Culture and Bell Beakers. Not only Kuhn and Meid but also Euler (2009, 2021) underlines the relationship of pre-Germanic with pre-Italic.

My assumption is that the area between Rhine and Weser has remained stuck in a kind of pre-Germanic groove for a long time,  may be in a kind of C-G Koch modus?   And that it did not participate in the Grimm law or the first Germanic sound shift! So it probably did not take part in the transition to a form of proto-Germanic (in IA). With regard to the IA/Roman period it is also important to note that the coastal area, or also called "terps" area, was pre-eminently oriented towards the Gallic and British areas. As later on the Gallo-Romans along the Rhine. Until the more northern North Sea areas that were populated by the Cimbri...and then the circle is complete again

Very interesting post. I continue to believe that we do have one piece of epigraphic evidence suggesting that a Germanic language was spoken in Roman period Twente, as part of the cultural package of locals who identified as "Germani." 

I make no claim beyond that statement with this post and agree with your view that the Anglo-Saxon influx changed the genetics of the region. I'm also not claiming that the contents of this post represent irrefutable, cast iron proof of any kind regarding Germanic languages in the area of the Netherlands. We are all free to make what we will of the inscription concerned, which belongs to the Roman period.

Some of you may remember my AG post on this a while back. The following is a lightly edited version of that, copied directly from the relevant entry I later made in my early Germanic sources doc (there are almost 100,000 words there now, incidentally):

Mars Thincsus, Hadrian's Wall, altar dedication (from a shrine dating from the mid-2nd to the early 4th century AD)

"Deo Marti Thincso et duabus Alaisiagis Bede et Fimmilene et N(umini) Aug(usti) Germ(ani) cives Tuihanti v(otum) s(olverunt) l(ibentes) m(erito)."

"To the god Mars Thincsus and the two Alaisiagae, Beda and Fimmilena, and to the Divinity of the Emperor the Germans, being tribesmen of Twenthe, willingly and deservedly fulfilled their vow."

"Mars Thincsus" from the inscription is Mars Thingsus (Mars of the Thing, the word for the Germanic assembly that survives in place names as far away as Iceland). We know that this god of the Thing is the war god Tiw (Týr in Norse mythology), who through "interpretatio romana" becomes the war god Mars in the Roman Empire. Týr and sometimes derivatives of the word Thing have given the name to Tuesday in many Germanic languages (Tuesday for Týr in one example, Dienstag for Thing in another), with dies Martis, the day of Mars, likewise being Tuesday for most Romance speakers.

Tuihanti is likely to be Twente in the Netherlands. Whatever the case, these are soldiers from a part of Germania within the empire, where the Alaisiagae were also worshipped, goddesses whose first followers may have stretched down to the old Belgic Celtic speaking regions. That their primary dedication of the altar was to the war god of the "Thing" and that they called themselves "Germans" and were most likely from Twente is worthy of note.

Thanks JonikW! Nice adds. I guess Drenthe and Twente staid in a kind of "pre Germanic groove" more Nordwestblock like or in the "Koch's C-G modus" (descriptions are two cents  than it was a kind of proto Germanic (Koch 2020, * 500 BC>) that was signed by Grimm's law.....(that's the least conclusion we can draw from Schrijver 2017 and Meid 1986).

For the rest Drenthe (Twenthe) was likely the most NW outpost of the Germanic network in EBA as in LBA. See previous posting.

In migration ages with the influx of the Anglo-Saxons (in Frisia, Threant and Tuihanti) the language certainly changed into Anglo-Frisian, Saxon c.q. North Sea Germanic.

[SeriesOfExtraordinaryEvents]

Nevertheless what were-on topic- the consequences for proto-germanic?

Kummel cairns have their deep origin in southern Scandinavia during the first beats of EBA. From there the Kummel cairns spread towards northwest (Norwegian atlantic coast), towards north to middle Sweden (the famous Mälaren valley), Gotland and western Finland. This expansion happened in explosive way, Kummel cairns outside of their south Scandinavian "homeland" appear almost simultaneously, together with bronze items associated with southern Scandinavia. 

Together with cairns, spread societal ideas - maritime chiefdom society.

Just few hundred years after the initial cairns at SS, massive, monumental cairns appear in Finland, example is Sammallahdenmäki. This is 1000km from Skåne, accross the Baltic sea. Similar sites appear all over the coastline of northern half of the Baltic sea. Easternmost cairns are located on Russian islands close to St. Petersburg. 

Not only was the spread explosive but also the stickiness of the phenomenom is extraordinary! Their usage outlasted the entire BA, well into Iron Age. 

I don't think this explosive spread of burials cairns and the sheer volume of sites still observed on rocky hills and cliffs can be explained only as cultural loans and influences. There must have been significant amount of migration included (haplogroup I1?). 

What language was spoken in southern Scandinavia in EBA ?

What language(s) was spoken inside of an upside triangle of southern Scandinavia, Gotland and Western Norway in 500 bc ?

Keep in mind that the Kummel cairn area and tradition spans all of this region, both in time and space.

Imo the correct answers are pre- and proto-Germanic. Extensive Germanic lexicon in Finnic is further evidence, atleast for the eastern part of triangle.

[PopGenist82]

Did the old Frisii of IA and Roman times ever spoke proto-Germanic?
Tentative answer: no.

Did the old NE Dutch of BA ever spoke pre-Germanic?
Tentative answer: yes.

In Koch (2020) this is stated about the Cimbri of Denmark:
"A block of early historical evidence pointing towards contact between speakers of Germanic and Celtic in the Late La Tène Iron Age centres on the documented activities of a group known as Cimbri."

I think this applies even more to the old Frisii. For this we can consult Peter Schrijver (2017), he states plainly that the Frisians of the Roman period were speaking North Sea Celtic, closely related to Brittonic and Gaulic. This only changed during the migration period with the influx of the Anglo-Saxons. According to Schrijver, Anglo-Frisian or North Sea Germanic was a language of Celts who tried to speak Anglo-Saxon Germanic. He bases this on the vowel system of Anglo-Frisian, which according to him shows a consistency with Celtic (Brittonic/Gaulic).

And where Koch in the case of the Cimbri: The recorded names of the Cimbri's leaders—Lugius, Boiorix, and Gaesorix—are all unambiguously Celtic. We also have the Frisian chieftains Mallorix and Verritus who visited Rome under Nero, 'which names make sense in Celtic' according to Schrijver.

This is IA and Roman times. But what about BA times? Mark that we go to the higher sandy grounds called Drenthe and Twente in the NE part. And exactly these names play a part in Schrijver's argumentation.

"A similar development odf *s to *h but with subsequent loss in the position between vowels may account for the Dutch county names Drenthe, older Threant (820 copy 10th century) from pre germanic *Tri-sant, which is strikinly similar to Romano-British Trisantona, which survives in British river names such as:Trent, Tarrant, Trannon. The meaning of this name, and therefore its etymology and Celticity, is unknown, but the existence of similarity formed Tuihanti (AD222-235, Künzel et al 1988, 353) the oldest form of the Dutch county named Twente, strongly suggest that they stem from compounds of the nummerals *dwi, 'two' and *tri, 'three', followed by an unknown word *sant. The development of the initial *d and *t of these numerals to t- and th- in Tuihanti and Threant, respectively, betrays the later Germanicization of these forms. The development of *s to *h is certainly not Germanic."

I stressed pre- Germanic because imo there is evidence that Drenthe was the most NW ern outpost of the Unetice koiné like I showed in a previous posting.

Then a hint of Kuhn's Nordwestblock (1962) comes into play. Wollfgang Meid 'evaluated' this theory in 1986. He stressed:

-  the close relationship to (pre) Italic
- *p- (and other shutter sounds) are partly not shifted in NW Germany names
- the existence of a -sí-suffix;
- apa in river names
- the suffix -andr-

The *p in particular has been preserved in West Germanic (English, Dutch) for intimate, vulgar words such as poop, pee, etc

Does this preclude a pre-Germanic? No. In addition to being the most northwestern outpost of the Unetice koiné, NE Netherlands in BA was also a mix of Single Grave Culture and Bell Beakers. Not only Kuhn and Meid but also Euler (2009, 2021) underlines the relationship of pre-Germanic with pre-Italic.

My assumption is that the area between Rhine and Weser has remained stuck in a kind of pre-Germanic groove for a long time,  may be in a kind of C-G Koch modus?   And that it did not participate in the Grimm law or the first Germanic sound shift! So it probably did not take part in the transition to a form of proto-Germanic (in IA). With regard to the IA/Roman period it is also important to note that the coastal area, or also called "terps" area, was pre-eminently oriented towards the Gallic and British areas. As later on the Gallo-Romans along the Rhine. Until the more northern North Sea areas that were populated by the Cimbri...and then the circle is complete again

Very interesting post. I continue to believe that we do have one piece of epigraphic evidence suggesting that a Germanic language was spoken in Roman period Twente, as part of the cultural package of locals who identified as "Germani." 

I make no claim beyond that statement with this post and agree with your view that the Anglo-Saxon influx changed the genetics of the region. I'm also not claiming that the contents of this post represent irrefutable, cast iron proof of any kind regarding Germanic languages in the area of the Netherlands. We are all free to make what we will of the inscription concerned, which belongs to the Roman period.

Some of you may remember my AG post on this a while back. The following is a lightly edited version of that, copied directly from the relevant entry I later made in my early Germanic sources doc (there are almost 100,000 words there now, incidentally):

Mars Thincsus, Hadrian's Wall, altar dedication (from a shrine dating from the mid-2nd to the early 4th century AD)

"Deo Marti Thincso et duabus Alaisiagis Bede et Fimmilene et N(umini) Aug(usti) Germ(ani) cives Tuihanti v(otum) s(olverunt) l(ibentes) m(erito)."

"To the god Mars Thincsus and the two Alaisiagae, Beda and Fimmilena, and to the Divinity of the Emperor the Germans, being tribesmen of Twenthe, willingly and deservedly fulfilled their vow."

"Mars Thincsus" from the inscription is Mars Thingsus (Mars of the Thing, the word for the Germanic assembly that survives in place names as far away as Iceland). We know that this god of the Thing is the war god Tiw (Týr in Norse mythology), who through "interpretatio romana" becomes the war god Mars in the Roman Empire. Týr and sometimes derivatives of the word Thing have given the name to Tuesday in many Germanic languages (Tuesday for Týr in one example, Dienstag for Thing in another), with dies Martis, the day of Mars, likewise being Tuesday for most Romance speakers.

Tuihanti is likely to be Twente in the Netherlands. Whatever the case, these are soldiers from a part of Germania within the empire, where the Alaisiagae were also worshipped, goddesses whose first followers may have stretched down to the old Belgic Celtic speaking regions. That their primary dedication of the altar was to the war god of the "Thing" and that they called themselves "Germans" and were most likely from Twente is worthy of note.

Assuming they really were from Twente, it could represent a case of exo-endonymy, ie adopting external labels in a new social context of the military frontier (in addition to actual linguistic heterogeneity & complexity within the home land)

[Rodoorn]

Did the old Frisii of IA and Roman times ever spoke proto-Germanic?
Tentative answer: no.

Did the old NE Dutch of BA ever spoke pre-Germanic?
Tentative answer: yes.

In Koch (2020) this is stated about the Cimbri of Denmark:
"A block of early historical evidence pointing towards contact between speakers of Germanic and Celtic in the Late La Tène Iron Age centres on the documented activities of a group known as Cimbri."

I think this applies even more to the old Frisii. For this we can consult Peter Schrijver (2017), he states plainly that the Frisians of the Roman period were speaking North Sea Celtic, closely related to Brittonic and Gaulic. This only changed during the migration period with the influx of the Anglo-Saxons. According to Schrijver, Anglo-Frisian or North Sea Germanic was a language of Celts who tried to speak Anglo-Saxon Germanic. He bases this on the vowel system of Anglo-Frisian, which according to him shows a consistency with Celtic (Brittonic/Gaulic).

And where Koch in the case of the Cimbri: The recorded names of the Cimbri's leaders—Lugius, Boiorix, and Gaesorix—are all unambiguously Celtic. We also have the Frisian chieftains Mallorix and Verritus who visited Rome under Nero, 'which names make sense in Celtic' according to Schrijver.

This is IA and Roman times. But what about BA times? Mark that we go to the higher sandy grounds called Drenthe and Twente in the NE part. And exactly these names play a part in Schrijver's argumentation.

"A similar development odf *s to *h but with subsequent loss in the position between vowels may account for the Dutch county names Drenthe, older Threant (820 copy 10th century) from pre germanic *Tri-sant, which is strikinly similar to Romano-British Trisantona, which survives in British river names such as:Trent, Tarrant, Trannon. The meaning of this name, and therefore its etymology and Celticity, is unknown, but the existence of similarity formed Tuihanti (AD222-235, Künzel et al 1988, 353) the oldest form of the Dutch county named Twente, strongly suggest that they stem from compounds of the nummerals *dwi, 'two' and *tri, 'three', followed by an unknown word *sant. The development of the initial *d and *t of these numerals to t- and th- in Tuihanti and Threant, respectively, betrays the later Germanicization of these forms. The development of *s to *h is certainly not Germanic."

I stressed pre- Germanic because imo there is evidence that Drenthe was the most NW ern outpost of the Unetice koiné like I showed in a previous posting.

Then a hint of Kuhn's Nordwestblock (1962) comes into play. Wollfgang Meid 'evaluated' this theory in 1986. He stressed:

-  the close relationship to (pre) Italic
- *p- (and other shutter sounds) are partly not shifted in NW Germany names
- the existence of a -sí-suffix;
- apa in river names
- the suffix -andr-

The *p in particular has been preserved in West Germanic (English, Dutch) for intimate, vulgar words such as poop, pee, etc

Does this preclude a pre-Germanic? No. In addition to being the most northwestern outpost of the Unetice koiné, NE Netherlands in BA was also a mix of Single Grave Culture and Bell Beakers. Not only Kuhn and Meid but also Euler (2009, 2021) underlines the relationship of pre-Germanic with pre-Italic.

My assumption is that the area between Rhine and Weser has remained stuck in a kind of pre-Germanic groove for a long time,  may be in a kind of C-G Koch modus?   And that it did not participate in the Grimm law or the first Germanic sound shift! So it probably did not take part in the transition to a form of proto-Germanic (in IA). With regard to the IA/Roman period it is also important to note that the coastal area, or also called "terps" area, was pre-eminently oriented towards the Gallic and British areas. As later on the Gallo-Romans along the Rhine. Until the more northern North Sea areas that were populated by the Cimbri...and then the circle is complete again

Very interesting post. I continue to believe that we do have one piece of epigraphic evidence suggesting that a Germanic language was spoken in Roman period Twente, as part of the cultural package of locals who identified as "Germani." 

I make no claim beyond that statement with this post and agree with your view that the Anglo-Saxon influx changed the genetics of the region. I'm also not claiming that the contents of this post represent irrefutable, cast iron proof of any kind regarding Germanic languages in the area of the Netherlands. We are all free to make what we will of the inscription concerned, which belongs to the Roman period.

Some of you may remember my AG post on this a while back. The following is a lightly edited version of that, copied directly from the relevant entry I later made in my early Germanic sources doc (there are almost 100,000 words there now, incidentally):

Mars Thincsus, Hadrian's Wall, altar dedication (from a shrine dating from the mid-2nd to the early 4th century AD)

"Deo Marti Thincso et duabus Alaisiagis Bede et Fimmilene et N(umini) Aug(usti) Germ(ani) cives Tuihanti v(otum) s(olverunt) l(ibentes) m(erito)."

"To the god Mars Thincsus and the two Alaisiagae, Beda and Fimmilena, and to the Divinity of the Emperor the Germans, being tribesmen of Twenthe, willingly and deservedly fulfilled their vow."

"Mars Thincsus" from the inscription is Mars Thingsus (Mars of the Thing, the word for the Germanic assembly that survives in place names as far away as Iceland). We know that this god of the Thing is the war god Tiw (Týr in Norse mythology), who through "interpretatio romana" becomes the war god Mars in the Roman Empire. Týr and sometimes derivatives of the word Thing have given the name to Tuesday in many Germanic languages (Tuesday for Týr in one example, Dienstag for Thing in another), with dies Martis, the day of Mars, likewise being Tuesday for most Romance speakers.

Tuihanti is likely to be Twente in the Netherlands. Whatever the case, these are soldiers from a part of Germania within the empire, where the Alaisiagae were also worshipped, goddesses whose first followers may have stretched down to the old Belgic Celtic speaking regions. That their primary dedication of the altar was to the war god of the "Thing" and that they called themselves "Germans" and were most likely from Twente is worthy of note.

Assuming they really were from Twente, it could represent a case of exo-endonymy, ie adopting external labels in a new social context of the military frontier (in addition to actual linguistic heterogeneity & complexity within the home land)

They most probably came from Twente, but indeed in a Roman context! The Romans coined Germani for the people right of the Rhine. The tribes at stake had to adopt that name, at least when they wanted to play a part in the Roman army and/or as foederati. Tacitus mentioned already that that this name was forced up on. Afterwards the label German became in disuse until the sixteenth century.
But that said certainly Drenthe but also the nearby Twenthe were in BA part of a supposed Germanic network. Probably pre-Germanic speaking, but not proto Germanic as in after the Germanic soundshifts. But the religion etc were for sure derived from the Germanic world.

[Rodoorn]

Nevertheless what were-on topic- the consequences for proto-germanic?

Kummel cairns have their deep origin in southern Scandinavia during the first beats of EBA. From there the Kummel cairns spread towards northwest (Norwegian atlantic coast), towards north to middle Sweden (the famous Mälaren valley), Gotland and western Finland. This expansion happened in explosive way, Kummel cairns outside of their south Scandinavian "homeland" appear almost simultaneously, together with bronze items associated with southern Scandinavia. 

Together with cairns, spread societal ideas - maritime chiefdom society.

Just few hundred years after the initial cairns at SS, massive, monumental cairns appear in Finland, example is Sammallahdenmäki. This is 1000km from Skåne, accross the Baltic sea. Similar sites appear all over the coastline of northern half of the Baltic sea. Easternmost cairns are located on Russian islands close to St. Petersburg. 

Not only was the spread explosive but also the stickiness of the phenomenom is extraordinary! Their usage outlasted the entire BA, well into Iron Age. 

I don't think this explosive spread of burials cairns and the sheer volume of sites still observed on rocky hills and cliffs can be explained only as cultural loans and influences. There must have been significant amount of migration included (haplogroup I1?). 

What language was spoken in southern Scandinavia in EBA ?

What language(s) was spoken inside of an upside triangle of southern Scandinavia, Gotland and Western Norway in 500 bc ?

Keep in mind that the Kummel cairn area and tradition spans all of this region, both in time and space.

Imo the correct answers are pre- and proto-Germanic. Extensive Germanic lexicon in Finnic is further evidence, atleast for the eastern part of triangle.

I don't see much difference from what I have stated. The only possible difference I may be can detect is that you seem to make it to an exclusive Scandic happening? I think it is something of Central North Europe and Scandinavia, in exchange.

[Anglesqueville]

Just had a first look at NEO261 (Allentoft 2022, thanks to teepean for the PLINK data). This is an I1 guy buried in Sillvik-Gothenburg around 1900 BC, and his genome is of excellent coverage. He is very close to my old friend ber1M (who is, from memory, 700 years older), whom he may well compete with in my list of favorite references.

left pops:
Sweden_EBA_NEO261
Sweden_LN_ber1
ansarve

best coefficients:    0.895    0.105
totmean:      0.895    0.105
boot mean:    0.898    0.102
      std. errors:    0.076    0.076
     
fixed pat  wt  dof    chisq      tail prob
          00  0    15    7.052        0.956204    0.895    0.105
          01  1    16    8.964        0.914906    1.000    0.000
          10  1    16  219.791              0    0.000    1.000
best pat:          00        0.956204              -  -
best pat:          01        0.914906  chi(nested):    1.912 p-value for nested model:        0.166738

[Anglesqueville]

I placed the main sites of the Swedish Kummel Graves type on a Google map, taking as a basis the list given on Wiki. It is interesting to observe that in addition to the coastal areas (incl. Gotland) they are also present in this central SW-NE area which is also the area of diffusion of the Mälar axes and that of sites linked to earlier iron metallurgy (before 500 BC).
https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?m...sp=sharing




edit: I've added some (among many) Finnish sites. As a side note, one important site is in Harjavalta (one of the most likely Proto-Germanic toponyms in Finland).

[Rodoorn]

In 2009 Magnus Artursson stated in his dissertation this: Power Structure Of Bronze Age Societies Was Based On Social Networks.

"This power structure was based on social networks rather than on permanently established institutions. Society was organised into small and medium-sized chiefdoms that were typically involved in ongoing struggles for dominance between various powerful families."

"Especially in southern Scandinavia, the predominant organisational form had been relatively unstable, small and medium-sized chiefdoms, in which powerful families and groups who were in constant competition with each other vied for power. Repeated changes in dominance with more or less sweeping struggles for power characterised the organisation of society in the Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age (2300 - 1100 BC), while development toward a more stabile situation, and the emergence of larger political entities in certain parts of the region can be observed during the Late Bronze Age (1100 - 500 BC). These larger political entities, however, were unable to maintain their local dominance for long periods, but were broken up in connection with the death of leaders, at which time internal and external struggles for power suddenly increased."

And from Johansen et al (2003):

"Evidence associated with chiefdoms, according to Renfrew and Bahn, include a spatial constellation of central place, monumental burial, and regional accumulation of wealth (1996, p. 195). These elements are seemingly present in the Late Bronze Age, and an ascription of chiefdom organization to the society during this period seems justified."

Imo swords played a very important-symbolic- part in the social network of chieftains. So based on one of my previous postings I propose this (see the map) represents the social network of chieftains in LBA.


JJ Butler:



I also propose that in this network there must have been at a basic level of understanding. So imo we see on the map- with all the possible regional variations- a representation of the Germanic speaking network of LBA (as part of NBA).