I2 in Yamnaya

[Kaltmeister]

Here  are all I2 men from the steppe, 31 altogether. The oldest one is from  Yabalkovo, Bulgaria (5650 BCE). The oldest Kurgan burial is Berezhnovka 2 from the area of Wolgograd (4830 BCE).
152  samples carry R1b, if I counted correct. The oldest is MOS304 from  Golubaya-Krinitsa, south of Woronesh in Russia (5500 BCE). The oldest elite burial is the same Kurgan as the oldest for I2: Berezhnovka 2.  But it is 54 years younger (4776 BCE). So in this short review the I2 burials appear a bit older.

Another  short calculation: There are 428 steppe samples altogether, 111 of them  are female: So we have 317 male samples. 31 out of 317 samples is 9,8%  I2. 152 out of 317 is 47,9% R1b. I am not that familiar with those subclades and the general find situation, for the focus in forum discussions ist not on I2 lines. But in my opinion the constellation asks for considerations on their role as a potential elite in the genesis of Yamnaya and the spread/origin of Indoeuropeans. If it is confirmed that not a single R1b sample from the Steppe carries the mutation L151 that is so widespread in western Europe today, their assumed important role in the spread of the Indoeuropeans is rather questionable.

   

[Sephesakueu]

The possibility that Indo european languages may have origins among WHGs elites imposing it upon steppe herderers is a plot twist I wasn't expecting.

[Mithra]

The possibility that Indo european languages may have origins among WHGs elites imposing it upon steppe herderers is a plot twist I wasn't expecting.

Most of these I2a samples are I-L699 and are from Don Yamnaya, a somewhat special subset of Yamnaya with elevated Ukraine_N compared to Core Yamnaya. The most interesting is probably the Berezhnovka I2a, it’s one of the oldest steppe samples and could be a result of movement from further west, at least its Y-haplogroup indicates a movement from the west(Don?). Furthermore Khavlynsk has also one I2a, here it’s most likely a result of a Berezhnovka-related population mixing with populations from the Volga cline as described in that paper. 

R1b is the Y-haplogroup most associated with every steppe group that we usually see as representative of the PIE community.

[Kaltmeister]

The possibility that Indo european languages may have origins among WHGs elites imposing it upon steppe herderers is a plot twist I wasn't expecting.

Most of these I2a samples are I-L699 and are from Don Yamnaya, a somewhat special subset of Yamnaya with elevated Ukraine_N compared to Core Yamnaya. The most interesting is probably the Berezhnovka I2a, it’s one of the oldest steppe samples and could be a result of movement from further west, at least its Y-haplogroup indicates a movement from the west(Don?). Furthermore Khavlynsk has also one I2a, here it’s most likely a result of a Berezhnovka-related population mixing with populations from the Volga cline as described in that paper. 

R1b is the Y-haplogroup most associated with every steppe group that we usually see as representative of the PIE community.

I2 is typically assigned to WHG, but in my opinion this combination doesn't explain the situation in the steppe. While Lazaridis & consorts are trying to shift the Indoeuropean origin along a "southern arc" beyond the Caucasus and in the direction of the Levante, in my opinion EHG is the crucial component for the genesis of Yamnaya. Leaving aside the offered interpretations and looking at the facts, we can follow the Wolga cline, concluding that the EHG origin must be searched somewhere in the vicinity of the upper Wolga, where this component has its highest density. So Veretye in Karelia must be close to the origin, while Samara and Sidelkino are marking the aim of an southeastern expansion along the Wolga, probably by boat.

It is interesting that also Papac et al. refuse a Yamnaya invasion for Corded Ware, instead they assumed an initial immigration from the "north or northeast". They mentioned the Forest Steppe as a possible origin, but in fact they don't offer any evidence for that. So the wider area of Karelia is a possible origin of an EHG people that moved into the Steppe and into middle/eastern Europe, founding Yamnaya and Corded Ware in two separate moves.

If some I2 clades played a role in this migration, they must have carried mainly EHG, not WHG, and they had nothing to do with the chapter of prehistory that has taken place before in the expansion of farming tribes from Anatolia into Europe. They would have initiated a new chapter in history that may have started when temperatures in their northern homeland declined - something that in fact happened in the time immediately before Yamnaya was formed, about 4.400 BCE (see picture: detail A). In fact many Indoeuropean (and also some non-Indoeuropean) mythologies report an old homeland that had to be given up, because it was getting very cold.
And, here in the north, we might also find the place of origin for R1b-L23, splitting into Z2103 and L51 and moving southeast and southwest, also for R1a-M417.

   

[old europe]

The possibility that Indo european languages may have origins among WHGs elites imposing it upon steppe herderers is a plot twist I wasn't expecting.

Most of these I2a samples are I-L699 and are from Don Yamnaya, a somewhat special subset of Yamnaya with elevated Ukraine_N compared to Core Yamnaya. The most interesting is probably the Berezhnovka I2a, it’s one of the oldest steppe samples and could be a result of movement from further west, at least its Y-haplogroup indicates a movement from the west(Don?). Furthermore Khavlynsk has also one I2a, here it’s most likely a result of a Berezhnovka-related population mixing with populations from the Volga cline as described in that paper. 

R1b is the Y-haplogroup most associated with every steppe group that we usually see as representative of the PIE community.

I2 is typically assigned to WHG, but in my opinion this combination doesn't explain the situation in the steppe. While Lazaridis & consorts are trying to shift the Indoeuropean origin along a "southern arc" beyond the Caucasus and in the direction of the Levante, in my opinion EHG is the crucial component for the genesis of Yamnaya. Leaving aside the offered interpretations and looking at the facts, we can follow the Wolga cline, concluding that the EHG origin must be searched somewhere in the vicinity of the upper Wolga, where this component has its highest density. So Veretye in Karelia must be close to the origin, while Samara and Sidelkino are marking the aim of an southeastern expansion along the Wolga, probably by boat.

It is interesting that also Papac et al. refuse a Yamnaya invasion for Corded Ware, instead they assumed an initial immigration from the "north or northeast". They mentioned the Forest Steppe as a possible origin, but in fact they don't offer any evidence for that. So the wider area of Karelia is a possible origin of an EHG people that moved into the Steppe and into middle/eastern Europe, founding Yamnaya and Corded Ware in two separate moves.

If some I2 clades played a role in this migration, they must have carried mainly EHG, not WHG, and they had nothing to do with the chapter of prehistory that has taken place before in the expansion of farming tribes from Anatolia into Europe. They would have initiated a new chapter in history that may have started when temperatures in their northern homeland declined - something that in fact happened in the time immediately before Yamnaya was formed, about 4.400 BCE (see picture: detail A). In fact many Indoeuropean (and also some non-Indoeuropean) mythologies report an old homeland that had to be given up, because it was getting very cold.
And, here in the north, we might also find the place of origin for R1b-L23, splitting into Z2103 and L51 and moving southeast and southwest, also for R1a-M417.

regardless of what the role of I2 in the build up of the PIE formation we should consider this

1)the image I posted identify correctly the middle don dna as the original  source of steppe ancestry in CWC ( and hence in Yamnaya) As we already know the expansion toward the northern caucasus of the Middle Don cluster around 5000 BC is the trigger that formed progress like dna. Progress is MIddle Don plus more CHG

2) The middle Don folks belonged to the Marioupol Culture which is a Ukraine neolithic culture that influenced all the steppe regions ( Volga and northern caucasus)

3)  as for the dna ukraine neolithic are modeld in the recent steppe paper as an equal split of WHG and EHG that translates in the most conservative way as 70% WHG and 30% ANE

Chance that PIA is an ukraine neolithic language that was spoken first between the Dneper and the Don is nearly 100%

The presence of pure WHG line I2 both in Middle Don, Sredni Stog and even lower Volga means a lot in this respect.

[Kaltmeister]

Yes, I know this version of the theory. A model that identifies a common origin for both Yamnaya and Corded Ware makes sense. But where are the R1b-L151 samples, marking their origin in Ukraine? Where the R1a-M417 samples before their entry into Corded Ware territory?

Do you share my intuition that EHG/ANE is the core element of Indoeuropean genetics? Then we have no choice, we have to follow the Wolga upstream ("Wolga cline") and get to Veretye in Karelia, the oldest EHG find so far. In my version there was a general migration from north to south by ANE/EHG-rich people, caused by a climate change. In that case you will find EHG/ANE-rich populations in the whole area, and you can successfully use them to modulate the admixture of adjacent populations. But that doesn't solve, in my opinion, the Indoeuropean question.

We know in fact a lot about this people from their mythology, and some aspects are not compatible with an origin in Ukraine. Why are there so many consistent announcements in Indoeuropean mythology and tradition that point to a common origin in the north, to a home north of the Polar Circle, to a climate change that forced them to leave their homeland? The Germanic "Fimbul Winters" are well known, I believe, so I will give some other examples collected by William Warren in "Paradise lost":

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"It is simply the Arctic Eden of humanity remembered as it was before the Evil One entered, and “by his witchcraft counter-created winter and the worst of plagues." There "are (now) ten winter months there, two summer months; and those are cold for the waters, cold for the earth, and cold for the trees.“

(Third Fargard of the Avesta, Persian)

“A year of mortals is a day and a night of the gods, or regents of the universe seated around the North Pole; and again their division is this: their day is the northern and their night the southern course of the sun.”

(Code of Manu, Hindu tradition)

“In the beginning the stars revolved in a tholiform manner.” (Anaxagoras)

Comment: Tholiform means "like in a dome", circling around the head of the observer. Anaxagoras himself defined the motion more fully when he said that it was a motion not underneath, but around the earth. Anaximenes would seem to have the same idea, for he is reported to have likened the primitive revolution of the sky to the rotating of a man’s hat upon his head. (Warren)

A learned Danish writer pronounces it “remarkable” that the Scandinavian mythology informs us that, before the establishment of the present order of the world, the sun which now rises in the East, “rose in the South”. (Warren) Comment: North of the Polar Circle day and night endure half a year - and the sun rises and sinks in the south.

"O Maker of the material world, thou Holy One! What lights are there in the Vara which Yima made?”
Ahura Mazda answered: "There are uncreated lights and created lights. There the stars, the moon, and the sun are only once a year seen to rise and set, and a year seems only as a day.” (2. Fargard of the Avesta, Persian)

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This is just a short collection. If I had some time, I could give you many more, similar quotations. A well known example ist the "Arctic home in the Vedas", written by the Indian intellectual B.G. Tilak - showing that the Indian homeland must have been located in the far north, beyond the Polar Circle: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Arctic..._the_Vedas

All these phenomena can not be experienced or observed in the Ukraine or the Pontic Steppe.