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E-V22 origins and spread
#16
After the early spread from the Southern Levant into the Arabic Peninsula and North East Africa we ain't see nothing yet, because what followed was a nomadic E-V22 spread on a real global scale!

To mention some headlines in the spread:

* The Land of Magan (Emirates, Oman area, 2300 BCE-550 BCE) was a trading-seafaring civilization, and deliver of copper and diorite, with contacts into the Indus Valley and Mespotamia.

* Phoenicia (core in Southern Levant, hight in 1200 BC-300 BC) with stretched through the whole Mediterranean area, and especially connected with for example Sicily (4,58% E-V22 with some specific subclades).

* The Roman Empire was a real shake up in which people from the Levant, Egypt and Arabic Peninsula ended up among the Limes in for example West-Germany, Netherlands up to York North England. We saw Isis Temples in Londen, York and Mainz. John Troeng even states that 'Nabateans that served in the Roman army probably reorganized the society in Denmark and introduced the runic script there ca. 200 AD.'

* The Jewish diaspora which most probably is responsible for some subclades in for example Poland or the Ukraine. 

And last but not least most probably the

* The Silk Road is responsible (?) for some unique Chinese E-V22 lines.

This results in E-V22 lines that nowadays show up from Ireland, Friesland in outmost NW Europe to China in the fare East.  Even in Dutch cheese heads like me. We see here like in other parts of NW Europa that E-V22 are white ravens, only connected on a very early E-V22 level. So in fact a few lost offshoots of a global nomadic E-V22 expansion....!

[Image: Scherm-afbeelding-2024-05-02-om-19-22-43.png]
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#17
I think E-V22 didn't spread from Southern Levant, it rose up as mutation in Mesolithic Egypt.
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#18
(05-03-2024, 10:09 AM)Southpaw Wrote: I think E-V22 didn't spread from Southern Levant, it rose up as mutation in Mesolithic Egypt.

The Southern Levant has the oldest cards:
Ain Ghazal PPNB individual who turned out to be E-M78>pre-Z1919. 

There is a known influx from Levantine Pastoralists towards Egypt (and further down the Horn of Africa) and the Arabic Peninsula from 8000 YBP > just at that time E-V22 broke from E-Z1919.

So I put my cards on Southern Levant (which means I have to revise myself initial I thought it was Egypt indeed).

https://www.routledge.com/Revolutions-in...1629585444
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#19
(05-03-2024, 10:21 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-03-2024, 10:09 AM)Southpaw Wrote: I think E-V22 didn't spread from Southern Levant, it rose up as mutation in Mesolithic Egypt.

The Southern Levant has the oldest cards:
Ain Ghazal PPNB individual who turned out to be E-M78>pre-Z1919. 

There is a known influx from Levantine Pastoralists towards Egypt (and further down the Horn of Africa) and the Arabic Peninsula from 8000 YBP > just at that time E-V22 broke from E-Z1919.

So I put my cards on Southern Levant (which means I have to revise myself initial I thought it was Egypt indeed).

https://www.routledge.com/Revolutions-in...1629585444

Can you provide evidence of this? Levant Neolithic populations yes, but no Levant Pastoralists enter Egypt much less East African in this time
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#20
(05-05-2024, 02:59 AM)ilabv Wrote:
(05-03-2024, 10:21 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-03-2024, 10:09 AM)Southpaw Wrote: I think E-V22 didn't spread from Southern Levant, it rose up as mutation in Mesolithic Egypt.

The Southern Levant has the oldest cards:
Ain Ghazal PPNB individual who turned out to be E-M78>pre-Z1919. 

There is a known influx from Levantine Pastoralists towards Egypt (and further down the Horn of Africa) and the Arabic Peninsula from 8000 YBP > just at that time E-V22 broke from E-Z1919.

So I put my cards on Southern Levant (which means I have to revise myself initial I thought it was Egypt indeed).

https://www.routledge.com/Revolutions-in...1629585444

Can you provide evidence of this? Levant Neolithic populations yes, but no Levant Pastoralists enter Egypt much less East African in this time
 
There is overwhelming evidence  that PPNB/C populations of the Southern Levant stood at the core of pastoralism.

Take for example this work, imo reliable and convincing:
https://www.routledge.com/Revolutions-in...1629585444

Work at the site of ‘Ain Ghazal in Jordan has indicated a later Pre-Pottery Neolithic C period, which existed between 8,200 and 7,900 YPB, which is congruent with the split of E-V22 from fatherclade E-Z1919.

Juris Zarins has proposed that a Circum Arabian Nomadic Pastoral Complex developed in the period from the climatic crisis of 8200 YPB, partly as a result of an increasing emphasis in PPNB cultures upon animal domesticates, and a fusion with Harifian hunter gatherers in Southern Palestine, with affiliate connections with the cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Desert of Egypt. Cultures practicing this lifestyle spread down the Red Sea shoreline and moved east from Syria into southern Iraq." (wiki)

Into Egypt

‘Herding appears ca. 7000 YBP, at a time of increased and possibly less seasonal rainfall, on large lateBashendi Asites with stone-built structures and a still-diversified food economy. With the drying trend after 6500 YBP , mobile Bashendi Bcattle and goat herders continue to aggregate in the oasis for a millennium, still utilizing a variety of resources.’ according to Mary M.A. McDonald in Early African Pastoralism: View from Dakhleh Oasis (South Central Egypt) (1998)

‘In the Nile Valley, the Saharian met and mixed with the descendants of the South Western Asian Neolithic population responsible for the introduction of the Southwest Asian agricultural tradition into the Nile Valley….’ Peter Bellwood (2005).

Allison Smith (2013): ‘The prime Northeast African haplogroup E candidate related to the arrival of farmers and/or pastoralists from the Levant is undated E-M34. E-V12(xV32) and E-V22 may well represent local adaptation.’

Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1b2 has been found in 75% of the ʿAin Ghazal population, along with 60% of PPNB populations (and is present in all three stages of PPNB). In 2024 is this in Iosif Lazaridis et al (2024) a few samples were re-sequenced. Sample I1710 from Ain Ghazal in Jordan 9741-9522 YBP was re-sequenced and found to be E-Z1919  This is now (2024)  the oldest E-Z1919 sample. This is quit important because this is only one step removed from E-V22.

It’s likely that in the shift in Southern Levant society towards pastoralism ‘in fact crystallizing only in the two millennia from 8000–6000 YBP’ was also the period ‘Yfull: 95%, 8900-7400 YBP rounded 8200 YBP’ in which the E-V22 split of from E-Z1919 took place. We see in this period 8000-6000 YBP an explosion in E-V22 subclades already within about 600 years past the split, there were at least 7 descendant lineages E-CTS567 & E-BY7700, E-CTS6080, E-BY7640, E-BY7446, E-BY161276,  E-FTA38222 (FTDNA 2024).

See-still work in progress- 
https://e-v22.net/origin/
https://e-v22.net/descendants/

https://e-v22.net/nomadic-spread-around-the-world/.    

The Southern Levantine pastoralist went also to Mesopotamia.
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#21
(05-05-2024, 11:01 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-05-2024, 02:59 AM)ilabv Wrote:
(05-03-2024, 10:21 AM)Rodoorn Wrote: The Southern Levant has the oldest cards:
Ain Ghazal PPNB individual who turned out to be E-M78>pre-Z1919. 

There is a known influx from Levantine Pastoralists towards Egypt (and further down the Horn of Africa) and the Arabic Peninsula from 8000 YBP > just at that time E-V22 broke from E-Z1919.

So I put my cards on Southern Levant (which means I have to revise myself initial I thought it was Egypt indeed).

https://www.routledge.com/Revolutions-in...1629585444

Can you provide evidence of this? Levant Neolithic populations yes, but no Levant Pastoralists enter Egypt much less East African in this time
 
There is overwhelming evidence  that PPNB/C populations of the Southern Levant stood at the core of pastoralism.

Take for example this work, imo reliable and convincing:
https://www.routledge.com/Revolutions-in...1629585444

Work at the site of ‘Ain Ghazal in Jordan has indicated a later Pre-Pottery Neolithic C period, which existed between 8,200 and 7,900 YPB, which is congruent with the split of E-V22 from fatherclade E-Z1919.

Juris Zarins has proposed that a Circum Arabian Nomadic Pastoral Complex developed in the period from the climatic crisis of 8200 YPB, partly as a result of an increasing emphasis in PPNB cultures upon animal domesticates, and a fusion with Harifian hunter gatherers in Southern Palestine, with affiliate connections with the cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Desert of Egypt. Cultures practicing this lifestyle spread down the Red Sea shoreline and moved east from Syria into southern Iraq." (wiki)

Into Egypt

‘Herding appears ca. 7000 YBP, at a time of increased and possibly less seasonal rainfall, on large lateBashendi Asites with stone-built structures and a still-diversified food economy. With the drying trend after 6500 YBP , mobile Bashendi Bcattle and goat herders continue to aggregate in the oasis for a millennium, still utilizing a variety of resources.’ according to Mary M.A. McDonald in Early African Pastoralism: View from Dakhleh Oasis (South Central Egypt) (1998)

‘In the Nile Valley, the Saharian met and mixed with the descendants of the South Western Asian Neolithic population responsible for the introduction of the Southwest Asian agricultural tradition into the Nile Valley….’ Peter Bellwood (2005).

Allison Smith (2013): ‘The prime Northeast African haplogroup E candidate related to the arrival of farmers and/or pastoralists from the Levant is undated E-M34. E-V12(xV32) and E-V22 may well represent local adaptation.’

Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1b2 has been found in 75% of the ʿAin Ghazal population, along with 60% of PPNB populations (and is present in all three stages of PPNB). In 2024 is this in Iosif Lazaridis et al (2024) a few samples were re-sequenced. Sample I1710 from Ain Ghazal in Jordan 9741-9522 YBP was re-sequenced and found to be E-Z1919  This is now (2024)  the oldest E-Z1919 sample. This is quit important because this is only one step removed from E-V22.

It’s likely that in the shift in Southern Levant society towards pastoralism ‘in fact crystallizing only in the two millennia from 8000–6000 YBP’ was also the period ‘Yfull: 95%, 8900-7400 YBP rounded 8200 YBP’ in which the E-V22 split of from E-Z1919 took place. We see in this period 8000-6000 YBP an explosion in E-V22 subclades already within about 600 years past the split, there were at least 7 descendant lineages E-CTS567 & E-BY7700, E-CTS6080, E-BY7640, E-BY7446, E-BY161276,  E-FTA38222 (FTDNA 2024).

See-still work in progress- 
https://e-v22.net/origin/
https://e-v22.net/descendants/

https://e-v22.net/nomadic-spread-around-the-world/.    

The Southern Levantine pastoralist went also to Mesopotamia.

Your references also claim they might be farmers not pastoralists. This is more likely. Pastoralists in Egypt come later, with Maadi-Buto.
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#22
(05-07-2024, 02:55 AM)ilabv Wrote:
(05-05-2024, 11:01 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-05-2024, 02:59 AM)ilabv Wrote: Can you provide evidence of this? Levant Neolithic populations yes, but no Levant Pastoralists enter Egypt much less East African in this time
 
There is overwhelming evidence  that PPNB/C populations of the Southern Levant stood at the core of pastoralism.

Take for example this work, imo reliable and convincing:
https://www.routledge.com/Revolutions-in...1629585444

Work at the site of ‘Ain Ghazal in Jordan has indicated a later Pre-Pottery Neolithic C period, which existed between 8,200 and 7,900 YPB, which is congruent with the split of E-V22 from fatherclade E-Z1919.

Juris Zarins has proposed that a Circum Arabian Nomadic Pastoral Complex developed in the period from the climatic crisis of 8200 YPB, partly as a result of an increasing emphasis in PPNB cultures upon animal domesticates, and a fusion with Harifian hunter gatherers in Southern Palestine, with affiliate connections with the cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Desert of Egypt. Cultures practicing this lifestyle spread down the Red Sea shoreline and moved east from Syria into southern Iraq." (wiki)

Into Egypt

‘Herding appears ca. 7000 YBP, at a time of increased and possibly less seasonal rainfall, on large lateBashendi Asites with stone-built structures and a still-diversified food economy. With the drying trend after 6500 YBP , mobile Bashendi Bcattle and goat herders continue to aggregate in the oasis for a millennium, still utilizing a variety of resources.’ according to Mary M.A. McDonald in Early African Pastoralism: View from Dakhleh Oasis (South Central Egypt) (1998)

‘In the Nile Valley, the Saharian met and mixed with the descendants of the South Western Asian Neolithic population responsible for the introduction of the Southwest Asian agricultural tradition into the Nile Valley….’ Peter Bellwood (2005).

Allison Smith (2013): ‘The prime Northeast African haplogroup E candidate related to the arrival of farmers and/or pastoralists from the Levant is undated E-M34. E-V12(xV32) and E-V22 may well represent local adaptation.’

Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1b2 has been found in 75% of the ʿAin Ghazal population, along with 60% of PPNB populations (and is present in all three stages of PPNB). In 2024 is this in Iosif Lazaridis et al (2024) a few samples were re-sequenced. Sample I1710 from Ain Ghazal in Jordan 9741-9522 YBP was re-sequenced and found to be E-Z1919  This is now (2024)  the oldest E-Z1919 sample. This is quit important because this is only one step removed from E-V22.

It’s likely that in the shift in Southern Levant society towards pastoralism ‘in fact crystallizing only in the two millennia from 8000–6000 YBP’ was also the period ‘Yfull: 95%, 8900-7400 YBP rounded 8200 YBP’ in which the E-V22 split of from E-Z1919 took place. We see in this period 8000-6000 YBP an explosion in E-V22 subclades already within about 600 years past the split, there were at least 7 descendant lineages E-CTS567 & E-BY7700, E-CTS6080, E-BY7640, E-BY7446, E-BY161276,  E-FTA38222 (FTDNA 2024).

See-still work in progress- 
https://e-v22.net/origin/
https://e-v22.net/descendants/

https://e-v22.net/nomadic-spread-around-the-world/.    

The Southern Levantine pastoralist went also to Mesopotamia.

Your references also claim they might be farmers not pastoralists. This is more likely. Pastoralists in Egypt come later, with Maadi-Buto.

Farmers are not my point of focus. We see about 8000 YBP the upcoming of the pastoralist, that coincidences with the split E-Z1919>E-V22.

Ilse Köhler Rollefson (1991) about the Jordanian area ('Ain Ghazal): " "Some of the strongest archeological evidence  for the first occurrence of pastoral nomadism during the PPNC:6000 (6000 BC-5500 BC) are the findings of Andrew Garaard's Azraq Basisn Project (Garrard et al 1988). He located an excavated in the easter desert that ranged from Epipaleothic  to the Pottery Neolithic and he found that  caprovids first appear round 6250 BC, This suggests that caprovids were not part of the indigenous fauna of the eastern desert but were introduced there, only after they had been domesticated  in the permanent settlements in the margins  of the highlands to the west."

See this:
https://acorjordan.org/2016/08/18/the-af...r-7000-bc/

And especially towards Egypt:
Juris Zarins has proposed that a Circum Arabian Nomadic Pastoral Complex developed in the period from the climatic crisis of 8200 YPB, partly as a result of an increasing emphasis in PPNB cultures upon animal domesticates, and a fusion with Harifian hunter gatherers in Southern Palestine, with affiliate connections with the cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Desert of Egypt. Cultures practicing this lifestyle spread down the Red Sea shoreline and moved east from Syria into southern Iraq. 

I will elaborate this further!
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#23
(05-08-2024, 09:37 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:
(05-07-2024, 02:55 AM)ilabv Wrote:
(05-05-2024, 11:01 AM)Rodoorn Wrote:  
There is overwhelming evidence  that PPNB/C populations of the Southern Levant stood at the core of pastoralism.

Take for example this work, imo reliable and convincing:
https://www.routledge.com/Revolutions-in...1629585444

Work at the site of ‘Ain Ghazal in Jordan has indicated a later Pre-Pottery Neolithic C period, which existed between 8,200 and 7,900 YPB, which is congruent with the split of E-V22 from fatherclade E-Z1919.

Juris Zarins has proposed that a Circum Arabian Nomadic Pastoral Complex developed in the period from the climatic crisis of 8200 YPB, partly as a result of an increasing emphasis in PPNB cultures upon animal domesticates, and a fusion with Harifian hunter gatherers in Southern Palestine, with affiliate connections with the cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Desert of Egypt. Cultures practicing this lifestyle spread down the Red Sea shoreline and moved east from Syria into southern Iraq." (wiki)

Into Egypt

‘Herding appears ca. 7000 YBP, at a time of increased and possibly less seasonal rainfall, on large lateBashendi Asites with stone-built structures and a still-diversified food economy. With the drying trend after 6500 YBP , mobile Bashendi Bcattle and goat herders continue to aggregate in the oasis for a millennium, still utilizing a variety of resources.’ according to Mary M.A. McDonald in Early African Pastoralism: View from Dakhleh Oasis (South Central Egypt) (1998)

‘In the Nile Valley, the Saharian met and mixed with the descendants of the South Western Asian Neolithic population responsible for the introduction of the Southwest Asian agricultural tradition into the Nile Valley….’ Peter Bellwood (2005).

Allison Smith (2013): ‘The prime Northeast African haplogroup E candidate related to the arrival of farmers and/or pastoralists from the Levant is undated E-M34. E-V12(xV32) and E-V22 may well represent local adaptation.’

Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b1b2 has been found in 75% of the ʿAin Ghazal population, along with 60% of PPNB populations (and is present in all three stages of PPNB). In 2024 is this in Iosif Lazaridis et al (2024) a few samples were re-sequenced. Sample I1710 from Ain Ghazal in Jordan 9741-9522 YBP was re-sequenced and found to be E-Z1919  This is now (2024)  the oldest E-Z1919 sample. This is quit important because this is only one step removed from E-V22.

It’s likely that in the shift in Southern Levant society towards pastoralism ‘in fact crystallizing only in the two millennia from 8000–6000 YBP’ was also the period ‘Yfull: 95%, 8900-7400 YBP rounded 8200 YBP’ in which the E-V22 split of from E-Z1919 took place. We see in this period 8000-6000 YBP an explosion in E-V22 subclades already within about 600 years past the split, there were at least 7 descendant lineages E-CTS567 & E-BY7700, E-CTS6080, E-BY7640, E-BY7446, E-BY161276,  E-FTA38222 (FTDNA 2024).

See-still work in progress- 
https://e-v22.net/origin/
https://e-v22.net/descendants/

https://e-v22.net/nomadic-spread-around-the-world/.    

The Southern Levantine pastoralist went also to Mesopotamia.

Your references also claim they might be farmers not pastoralists. This is more likely. Pastoralists in Egypt come later, with Maadi-Buto.

Farmers are not my point of focus. We see about 8000 YBP the upcoming of the pastoralist, that coincidences with the split E-Z1919>E-V22.

Ilse Köhler Rollefson (1991) about the Jordanian area ('Ain Ghazal): " "Some of the strongest archeological evidence  for the first occurrence of pastoral nomadism during the PPNC:6000 (6000 BC-5500 BC) are the findings of Andrew Garaard's Azraq Basisn Project (Garrard et al 1988). He located an excavated in the easter desert that ranged from Epipaleothic  to the Pottery Neolithic and he found that  caprovids first appear round 6250 BC, This suggests that caprovids were not part of the indigenous fauna of the eastern desert but were introduced there, only after they had been domesticated  in the permanent settlements in the margins  of the highlands to the west."

See this:
https://acorjordan.org/2016/08/18/the-af...r-7000-bc/

And especially towards Egypt:
Juris Zarins has proposed that a Circum Arabian Nomadic Pastoral Complex developed in the period from the climatic crisis of 8200 YPB, partly as a result of an increasing emphasis in PPNB cultures upon animal domesticates, and a fusion with Harifian hunter gatherers in Southern Palestine, with affiliate connections with the cultures of Fayyum and the Eastern Desert of Egypt. Cultures practicing this lifestyle spread down the Red Sea shoreline and moved east from Syria into southern Iraq. 

I will elaborate this further!

That's so often cited simply because it's on Wikipedia. That same Harifian culture is also said to come from Egypt, with a merging of the Egyptian and Levantine cultures to create the CANPC and the dissemination of Pre-Proto-Semites.

It's purely theoretical and there's not much evidence for it. Which affiliate cultures in the Fayyum do you believe are connected to the Levant at this time? Outside of the farmers that introduce agriculture circa 6500 BC of course
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#24
By the way, the ancestral group to E-V22, E-L618/V13 etc. E-PF2179 has a separate, very old branch E-V1133, with modern testers with deep splits from Armenia, Israel, Turkey and Italy.
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/E-PF2179/tree

What I find particularly remarkable is that this very small branch has in 2 of its 3 downstream branches members from Armenia. The deep split is between ca. 6.000-5.500 BC. At least superficially this is further evidence for the whole macrogroup growing in the Levante, in my opinion.
So far we have no older samples from Africa anyway to prove the opposite.

If we take the branch of E-V65, as another example, it has African branches and testers, but these are recent founder events, clearly so, because they being completely embedded in Near Eastern samples and all Africans so far are under specific founder lineages.

What we generally see are first founding events around 7.000-5.000 BC, which points to the clear association with Neolithic innovations.

For E-M78 as a whole, the Taforalt IBM branch is a side branch and dead end, presumably from an early split.

I still think that the branch as a whole was at home in the Southern Levante-Yemen rather. But Egypt is an alternative, that's right, we just need older samples.

For E-V22 I would clearly associate it with the invasion and colonisation from the Levante. Little doubt about that.
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#25
Yemen is unlikely, Yemen archaeologically is completely unimportant place just as Arabian peninsula during Paleolithic-Mesolithic.

Paleolithic-Mesolithic Egypt otherwise is the first and foremost candidate for the origin of E-M35, which far outweighs Levant or Anatolia in terms of importance archaeologically.
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#26
(05-09-2024, 12:02 PM)Southpaw Wrote: Yemen is unlikely, Yemen archaeologically is completely unimportant place just as Arabian peninsula during Paleolithic-Mesolithic.

Paleolithic-Mesolithic Egypt otherwise is the first and foremost candidate for the origin of E-M35, which far outweighs Levant or Anatolia in terms of importance archaeologically.

I don't agree:

Quote:he recovery at Shi’bat Dihya 1 (SD1) of a dense Middle Paleolithic human occupation dated to 55 ka BP sheds new light on the role of the Arabian Peninsula at the time of the alleged expansion of modern humans out of Africa. SD1 is part of a complex of Middle Paleolithic sites cut by the Wadi Surdud and interstratified within an alluvial sedimentary basin in the foothills that connect the Yemeni highlands with the Tihama coastal plain. A number of environmental proxies indicate arid conditions throughout a sequence that extends between 63 and 42 ka BP. The lithic industry is geared toward the production of a variety of end products: blades, pointed blades, pointed flakes and Levallois-like flakes with long unmodified cutting edges, made from locally available rhyolite. The occasional exploitation of other local raw materials, that fulfill distinct complementary needs, highlights the multi-functional nature of the occupation. The slightly younger Shi’bat Dihya 2 (SD2) site is characterized by a less elaborate production of flakes, together with some elements (blades and pointed flakes) similar to those found at SD1, and may indicate a cultural continuity between the two sites. The technological behaviors of the SD1 toolmakers present similarities with those documented from a number of nearly contemporaneous assemblages from southern Arabia, the Levant, the Horn of Africa and North Africa. However, they do not directly conform to any of the techno-complexes typical of the late Middle Paleolithic or late Middle Stone Age from these regions. This period would have witnessed the development of local Middle Paleolithic traditions in the Arabian Peninsula, which suggests more complex settlement dynamics and possible population interactions than commonly inferred by the current models of modern human expansion out of Africa.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...8412000565

https://hal.science/hal-01828461/document

The big problem is the transition to the Upper Paleolithic industry and whether there was local continuity or not.

The end of the foragers:
Quote:The Terminal Pleistocene and Early Holocene archaeological record of Arabia remains largely understudied.
This review focuses on the current state of research in South Arabia, an area encompassing nearly one
million square kilometres that has received attention only in the past decades.

This could have led to a demographic expanson:

Quote:At c. 15,000 to 13,000 BP, a brief but potentially
critical wet phase occurred within some parts
of Arabia, associated with the Bølling-Allerød
interstadial, which would have led to the ex-
pansion of vegetation and freshwater resourc-
es in the southernmost regions of the Penin-
sula. Studies on the speleothem record of
South Arabia by D. Fleitmann and colleagues
(Fleitmann et al. 2007; Fleitmann and Matter
2009) indicate that in a span of 1000 year the
northernmost extent of the Indian Monsoon
range shifted, making ever further incursions
into the dry areas across South Arabia. Based
on Th-U dates of the growth intervals on the
speleothems, researchers were able to pin-
point the onset of the wet phase in southern
Oman at c. 10,600 BP and in northern Oman
at c. 9200 BP.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...cal_record

The whole macro-region remains understudied, but it looks like there was a Late Upper Peolithic/Early Holocene colonisation from the Levante in Arabia. Whether the early Pre-Neolithic or even Pastoralist sites are of importance needs to be determined.

In general, what we need is Pre-Natufian samples from the Near East, especially countries like Israel, Lebanon etc.
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#27
I came across this article that Iberomaurusians ate mostly plant-based diet: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/30/afric...index.html

Perhaps a specific group of Iberomaurusians indeed ate mostly plant-based diet, but i highly doubt all of the groups, i would guess this is another vegan missinformation just like the Blue Zone documentaries.
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#28
(05-09-2024, 12:43 PM)Riverman Wrote:
(05-09-2024, 12:02 PM)Southpaw Wrote: Yemen is unlikely, Yemen archaeologically is completely unimportant place just as Arabian peninsula during Paleolithic-Mesolithic.

Paleolithic-Mesolithic Egypt otherwise is the first and foremost candidate for the origin of E-M35, which far outweighs Levant or Anatolia in terms of importance archaeologically.

I don't agree:

Quote:he recovery at Shi’bat Dihya 1 (SD1) of a dense Middle Paleolithic human occupation dated to 55 ka BP sheds new light on the role of the Arabian Peninsula at the time of the alleged expansion of modern humans out of Africa. SD1 is part of a complex of Middle Paleolithic sites cut by the Wadi Surdud and interstratified within an alluvial sedimentary basin in the foothills that connect the Yemeni highlands with the Tihama coastal plain. A number of environmental proxies indicate arid conditions throughout a sequence that extends between 63 and 42 ka BP. The lithic industry is geared toward the production of a variety of end products: blades, pointed blades, pointed flakes and Levallois-like flakes with long unmodified cutting edges, made from locally available rhyolite. The occasional exploitation of other local raw materials, that fulfill distinct complementary needs, highlights the multi-functional nature of the occupation. The slightly younger Shi’bat Dihya 2 (SD2) site is characterized by a less elaborate production of flakes, together with some elements (blades and pointed flakes) similar to those found at SD1, and may indicate a cultural continuity between the two sites. The technological behaviors of the SD1 toolmakers present similarities with those documented from a number of nearly contemporaneous assemblages from southern Arabia, the Levant, the Horn of Africa and North Africa. However, they do not directly conform to any of the techno-complexes typical of the late Middle Paleolithic or late Middle Stone Age from these regions. This period would have witnessed the development of local Middle Paleolithic traditions in the Arabian Peninsula, which suggests more complex settlement dynamics and possible population interactions than commonly inferred by the current models of modern human expansion out of Africa.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...8412000565

https://hal.science/hal-01828461/document

The big problem is the transition to the Upper Paleolithic industry and whether there was local continuity or not.

The end of the foragers:
Quote:The Terminal Pleistocene and Early Holocene archaeological record of Arabia remains largely understudied.
This review focuses on the current state of research in South Arabia, an area encompassing nearly one
million square kilometres that has received attention only in the past decades.

This could have led to a demographic expanson:

Quote:At c. 15,000 to 13,000 BP, a brief but potentially
critical wet phase occurred within some parts
of Arabia, associated with the Bølling-Allerød
interstadial, which would have led to the ex-
pansion of vegetation and freshwater resourc-
es in the southernmost regions of the Penin-
sula. Studies on the speleothem record of
South Arabia by D. Fleitmann and colleagues
(Fleitmann et al. 2007; Fleitmann and Matter
2009) indicate that in a span of 1000 year the
northernmost extent of the Indian Monsoon
range shifted, making ever further incursions
into the dry areas across South Arabia. Based
on Th-U dates of the growth intervals on the
speleothems, researchers were able to pin-
point the onset of the wet phase in southern
Oman at c. 10,600 BP and in northern Oman
at c. 9200 BP.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...cal_record

The whole macro-region remains understudied, but it looks like there was a Late Upper Peolithic/Early Holocene colonisation from the Levante in Arabia. Whether the early Pre-Neolithic or even Pastoralist sites are of importance needs to be determined.

In general, what we need is Pre-Natufian samples from the Near East, especially countries like Israel, Lebanon etc.

I don't know man why you insist on Yemen/Arabia. It's so highly unlikely. All arguments points to Nile Valley as the starting point and expanding all over Northern Africa during Holocene when Northern Africa technically had the climate of today's Southern Europe just during the start of Holocene. Probably some groups expanded on Levant as well bringing with them Pre Proto-Semitic.
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#29
(05-09-2024, 01:15 PM)Southpaw Wrote: I don't know man why you insist on Yemen/Arabia. It's so highly unlikely. All arguments points to Nile Valley as the starting point and expanding all over Northern Africa during Holocene when Northern Africa technically had the climate of today's Southern Europe just during the start of Holocene. Probably some groups expanded on Levant as well bringing with them Pre Proto-Semitic.

We should distinguish between the origin of haplogroup E-M35/E-M78, Afro-Asiatics and later branches which dispersed with Neolithic innovations.
While E-M35/E-M78 might have its origin in North East Africa, together with Afro-Asiatic languages, the later branches which dispersed with Neolithic innovations are much more likely to have spread from the Levante.

Therefore the Pre-Natufian origin is doubtful, the post-Natufian/Neolithic from the Levante is not.
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#30
Conveniently enough, there's two recent and important V22 results from Syria:

1. Albubattoush clan from Aleppo: V22>BY7700* negative for all the downstreams ( https://twitter.com/DNASyria/status/1787...VGj0gPMtzg )

2. Atqi family from Aleppo: V22>CTS567>Y37003* negative for all downstreams
( https://twitter.com/DNASyria/status/1781...J8Qw6AjSmQ )
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