Abbühl under J2a-PF5197 from E. Switzerland

[ChrisR]

Re-Opening this as a separate thread from the J2(a) Stats thread

Hello, I am new to this site and to genetics/haplogroup study as well, and feel very out of my depth here.

My paternal line hails from Switzerland, particularly the Berner Oberland and more historically, from around Chür and St. Gallen.

I just discovered that our haplogroup is J2a-PF5197 which is associated with Anatolian/Eastern groups and seem very confused; my family on that side is predominantly South German, Tirolean, and Swiss German.

Are we still ethnically German/Alpine people?

Would someone be able to explain all this in layman’s terms for me?

Well ethnically you are whatever you are, your paternal line is just one line of ancestry amongst all the rest and doesn't define your ethnicity (unless you belong to some super-strict paternal clan system I guess, which you don't).

J2a-PF5197 is estimated to be around 15 000 years old (so its descendants began separating during the Ice Age), and is very widespread with many distinct branches. There are multiple ancient samples of J-PF5197 from Italy that are more than 4000 years old. You would need to find out what specific sub-branch you belong to to learn about the origin of your own lineage.

(You can see ancient and modern samples on the FTDNA Time Tree if you want.)

Most likely of Imperial Roman origin but there's a medieval founder effect in Switzerland under this branch:

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...45299/tree

What exactly is a founder effect?

And Imperial Roman? Wow! I’d thought that my group had gotten there much earlier and was moreover Germanic in makeup. That’s interesting.

Are the Romans more associated with the L70 branch of this tree?

Obviously you’d know more (genuine not sarcastic) I’m just repeating what I read in the past day ?

Thank you so much again.

Founder effect is a populations genetics term but in the context of Y DNA it's used more loosely, basically when a specific lineage shows sudden growth out of a small initial pool.

Identities are never static so regardless of the possible origins of a paternal lineage they don't mean much e.g. in 750 AD, when we see the branching happen in Switzerland. There's no reason to assume they had a different identity than other Swiss people of that period.

It appears that PF5169 is more Neolithic in origin, as its MRCA is over 10000 years ago and the subclade common in south Germans and Swiss had its origins 8300 years ago, but Neolithic lineages survived better in south Germany and Switzerland; they have a larger percentage of G2a, the quintessential Neolithic lineage, as well.

As previously mentioned this likely neolithic age subclade might be interesting to you

YFull calls it Y20569 while Ftdna calls it FGC45324

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y20569/

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...45324/tree

[ChrisR]

Since 2010 I do research subgroups of J2a-PF5197 which then was not known under this SNP Name (discovered only in 2013 and 2015 by Francalacci et al).
In 2013 I did found the J2a-PF5197 Project at FTDNA.
Even if you are most likely under
J2a-PF5197>PF5172>Z7314>PF5169>FGC16096>S15439>Z40067>FGC45324>Y20565>FGC45299
with several Swiss Families,
there is another declared Swiss result under
J2a-PF5197>PF5172>Z7314>PF5169>PF5174>Z8074>PF7419>Z8072>FTB97234
and more from the Upper Rhine in other haplogroups.
So you definitely need to find out to which terminal haplogroup your lineage belongs. Terminal means the most recent known haplogroups (for your surname).
So this haplogroup should not be older then Middle Ages, or Antiquity or maybe Iron Ages to draw good conclusions.

If indeed you are under FGC45299 I would add the following to what was already explained:
1) FGC45299 as oldest known founder haplogroup of the Swiss sublineages is estimated to be from early Medieval time
2) Y20565 as the next oldest haplogroup is a (Late) Neolithic lineage and has other descendants under FTC17085 from likely from Central Europe (Frady, Dorman) and under FTC14925 from Palestine and Libya.

So with this limited data points from Neolithic to Early Middle Ages it remains speculation what the path of the lineage was during this time.
While J2a along with other J Haplogroups over 10 ears ago was associated with expansion and migration in Antiquity (Romans, Greeks, Carthagians, Phoenicians) the high resolution results (sequencing) of the Y have since then revealed the history is more complex and diverse and each lineage has its own history. Some under J2a migrated to Europe in Late Neolithic, others in Bronze Age and especially Late Bronze Age and Iron Age seems have brought a good percentage of J2a in relation to those which now can be associated with the Antiquity.
So matching haplogroups in all those timeframes are needed for clarification.
Saying a Haplogroup belonged to a certain culture or geographical position is however always only a temporary snapshot as only few lineages can prove they remained in the same spot for over 15 generations (= ca. 450 years). So I would say "is likely to have lived for some time in ..." you may insert "Late Antiquity Rhaetia" or " Late Antiquity Gallia Helvetia". What was before as said is likely speculation if not all main possibilities are considered and listed.

For FGC45299 you should contact Tim Schrag, which is CoAdmin in J2a-PF5197 Project and has done extensive Y-DNA research on his surname and the related Y-Haplogroups. Maybe he has some more insights.

[J.Abbühl]

Since 2010 I do research subgroups of J2a-PF5197 which then was not known under this SNP Name (discovered only in 2013 and 2015 by Francalacci et al).
In 2013 I did found the J2a-PF5197 Project at FTDNA.
Even if you are most likely under
J2a-PF5197>PF5172>Z7314>PF5169>FGC16096>S15439>Z40067>FGC45324>Y20565>FGC45299
with several Swiss Families,
there is another declared Swiss result under
J2a-PF5197>PF5172>Z7314>PF5169>PF5174>Z8074>PF7419>Z8072>FTB97234
and more from the Upper Rhine in other haplogroups.
So you definitely need to find out to which terminal haplogroup your lineage belongs. Terminal means the most recent known haplogroups (for your surname).
So this haplogroup should not be older then Middle Ages, or Antiquity or maybe Iron Ages to draw good conclusions.

If indeed you are under FGC45299 I would add the following to what was already explained:
1) FGC45299 as oldest known founder haplogroup of the Swiss sublineages is estimated to be from early Medieval time
2) Y20565 as the next oldest haplogroup is a (Late) Neolithic lineage and has other descendants under FTC17085 from likely from Central Europe (Frady, Dorman) and under FTC14925 from Palestine and Libya.

So with this limited data points from Neolithic to Early Middle Ages it remains speculation what the path of the lineage was during this time.
While J2a along with other J Haplogroups over 10 ears ago was associated with expansion and migration in Antiquity (Romans, Greeks, Carthagians, Phoenicians) the high resolution results (sequencing) of the Y have since then revealed the history is more complex and diverse and each lineage has its own history. Some under J2a migrated to Europe in Late Neolithic, others in Bronze Age and especially Late Bronze Age and Iron Age seems have brought a good percentage of J2a in relation to those which now can be associated with the Antiquity.
So matching haplogroups in all those timeframes are needed for clarification.
Saying a Haplogroup belonged to a certain culture or geographical position is however always only a temporary snapshot as only few lineages can prove they remained in the same spot for over 15 generations (= ca. 450 years). So I would say "is likely to have lived for some time in ..." you may insert "Late Antiquity Rhaetia" or " Late Antiquity Gallia Helvetia". What was before as said is likely speculation if not all main possibilities are considered and listed.

For FGC45299 you should contact Tim Schrag, which is CoAdmin in J2a-PF5197 Project and has done extensive Y-DNA research on his surname and the related Y-Haplogroups. Maybe he has some more insights.

Wow, this information was incredibly helpful and frankly so wonderful to read. I greatly appreciate the time and effort you’ve put into this, as well as the information on Alpine genetics in general that I’ve seen you comment elsewhere. I feel like you’ve helped me find a part of myself, thank you so much.