Slavic Chronology discussion

[Tomenable]

I'm opening this thread as a continuation of the old Anthrogenica discussion with the same title:

https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...ology/4261

I made a map of possible Proto-Slavic homeland, I also included Balts, what do you think about it?:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?m...sp=sharing

[Parastais]

It is likely homeland was dynamic in time, but I would be surprised if either Baltic or Slavic homeland was significantly outside respective circle.

[Tomenable]

It is likely homeland was dynamic in time, but I would be surprised if either Baltic or Slavic homeland was significantly outside respective circle.

Here is a map showing various theories about the Slavic homeland, but Carpathian hypothesis should be attributed to Udolph (not Baran and Godlowski):

https://i.redd.it/t5pct9u27io51.jpg

[leonardo]

I'm opening this thread as a continuation of the old Anthrogenica discussion with the same title:

https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...ology/4261

I made a map of possible Proto-Slavic homeland, I also included Balts, what do you think about it?:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?m...sp=sharing

Just to clarify, when you provide a map of the possible proto Slavic homeland, what is your timeframe for this map? While there is plenty of debate about Slavic origins, we know that there really was no PROTO Slavic probably before 300BCE or so. M458, which constitutes a large portion of Slavs today was virtually nonexistent before then, and if I am not mistaken, the same goes for Y3120.

[Tomenable]

M458, which constitutes a large portion of Slavs today was virtually nonexistent before then

If it was virtually nonexistent before 300 BC then how do you explain the fact that we've already found M458 from 1400 BC?:

Sample poz554; 1492-1297 BC; Brodzica 19, Poland; Trzciniec culture, R1a-M458

According to linguists like Gray 2011 and Chang 2015, pre-proto Slavs split from the Balto-Slavic continnum ca. 3400-2600 BP:

Gray 2011 - https://www.researchgate.net/publication...an_History
Chang 2015 - https://www.linguisticsociety.org/sites/...eprint.pdf

[Gordius]

It is likely homeland was dynamic in time, but I would be surprised if either Baltic or Slavic homeland was significantly outside respective circle.

Here is a map showing various theories about the Slavic homeland, but Carpathian hypothesis should be attributed to Udolph (not Baran and Godlowski):

https://i.redd.it/t5pct9u27io51.jpg

Baran may not have been the first to express the "Carpathian" hypothesis, but he, of all archaeologists, studied the sites of the Prague culture of Prykarpattia and the earlier sites of the Chernyakhiv culture of that region the most. Therefore, of course, his works play a key role in this hypothesis.

[Gordius]

I'm opening this thread as a continuation of the old Anthrogenica discussion with the same title:

https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...ology/4261

I made a map of possible Proto-Slavic homeland, I also included Balts, what do you think about it?:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?m...sp=sharing

1. First specify the chronological framework.
2. Proto-Slavs and Pro-Balts should be associated with specific archaeological cultures, not just arbitrary regions. Then it will be possible to say more specifically whether we agree with this map or not.

[Gordius]

As an example, I will cite the falsity of the Polissya hypothesis (I mean when some people think about the origin of Prague-Korchac culture from the territory of northwestern Ukraine and southern Belarus). If we take the times before the spread of Prague-Korchac culture, Ukrainian Volyn and southwestern Belarus were occupied Velbar culture (that is, pure Goths, not Slavs). The eastern, central Polissia (Zhytomyr and part of the Rivne regions) was practically uninhabited. Only near the Dnipro do monuments of the Kyivan archaeological culture begin, which stretched to the north and northeast. But at present, few researchers bring Prague - the Korcha culture from the Kyiv culture, besides, if you trust the hydronyms, it seems that North-Eastern Ukraine is Baltic hydronyms.

[Tomenable]

(...)

For Proto-Slavs: Zarubintsy culture and post-Zarubintsy groups (including Kiev culture) and northern parts of Chernyakhov culture.

As for Balts, the map was drawn based on Baltic hydronyms, but it also overlaps with archaeological cultures associated with Balts.

[Gordius]

(...)

For Proto-Slavs: Zarubintsy culture and post-Zarubintsy groups (including Kiev culture) and northern parts of Chernyakhov culture.

As for Balts, the map was drawn based on Baltic hydronyms, but it also overlaps with archaeological cultures associated with Balts.

If we believe the Soviet linguists (and after them, apparently, no one studied the hydronymy of Eastern Europe), then northeastern Ukraine (that is, the territory of the Kyiv culture and a large part of the territory of the Zarubinets culture) are Baltic hydronyms. Of course, linguists can be wrong.

[Tomenable]

If we believe the Soviet linguists (and after them, apparently, no one studied the hydronymy of Eastern Europe), then northeastern Ukraine (that is, the territory of the Kyiv culture and a large part of the territory of the Zarubinets culture) are Baltic hydronyms. Of course, linguists can be wrong.

According to these maps Baltic hydronyms only cover a small part of Ukraine north of Chernihiv (Cernigovas):





I also used this map when drawing the borders of Balts:

[Tomenable]

I've added the southern border of Baltic hydronyms to the map:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?m...sp=sharing

Maybe this area was assimilated very early on by Proto-Slavs?

[leonardo]

M458, which constitutes a large portion of Slavs today was virtually nonexistent before then

If it was virtually nonexistent before 300 BC then how do you explain the fact that we've already found M458 from 1400 BC?:

Sample poz554; 1492-1297 BC; Brodzica 19, Poland; Trzciniec culture, R1a-M458

According to linguists like Gray 2011 and Chang 2015, pre-proto Slavs split from the Balto-Slavic continnum ca. 3400-2600 BP:

Gray 2011 - https://www.researchgate.net/publication...an_History
Chang 2015 - https://www.linguisticsociety.org/sites/...eprint.pdf

Virtually means just about none. Of course there was some. I don't think that line is traceable to ant Slavs today. Ph2ter's graph shows the bottleneck. The growth in M458 occurred late. Where that growth took place is more telling to me about the Slavic homeland.

[leonardo]

I'm opening this thread as a continuation of the old Anthrogenica discussion with the same title:

https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/2...ology/4261

I made a map of possible Proto-Slavic homeland, I also included Balts, what do you think about it?:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?m...sp=sharing

1. First specify the chronological framework.
2. Proto-Slavs and Pro-Balts should be associated with specific archaeological cultures, not just arbitrary regions. Then it will be possible to say more specifically whether we agree with this map or not.

Yes the chronological timeframe needs to be established.

[leonardo]

(...)

For Proto-Slavs: Zarubintsy culture and post-Zarubintsy groups (including Kiev culture) and northern parts of Chernyakhov culture.

As for Balts, the map was drawn based on Baltic hydronyms, but it also overlaps with archaeological cultures associated with Balts.

Okay. This establishes your Proto Slavs at around 300-200 BCE and thereafter. That makes sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zarubintsy_culture