Is this Carthaginian sample R1b-M269 or R1b-V88?

[James100]

Does anyone know? Moots et al. associate the sample's Y-DNA with Bell Beakers but I saw someone claiming that it was actually R1b-V88.


“Of the 12 individuals at Kerkouane, 4 individuals are male. Three of these individuals, all from cluster #2 (non-local) all carry J2b, which has previously been associated with the Phoenician expansion. This differs from what is seen in the nuclear and mitochondrial analyses. This could be a two-step process, of this haplogroup dispersing in the Mediterranean and then arriving at Kerkouane. Alternatively, J2b is also found in the BA/Nuragic Sardinian individuals and may reflect the close ties between the Maghreb and Sardinia. Finally, one individual from cluster #1 carries haplogroup R1b [R11746], which is associated with Bell Beaker cultures in Europe and common in central Italy at this time and became prevalent in southern Iberia by the Bronze Age. This supports the possibility that the steppe component observed at Kerkouane may have been introduced through mobility occurring in the central and western Mediterranean” 


R11746: Y-DNA R1b, mtDNA T2b, 733 calBCE - 411.5 calBCE


- Moots et al. (2023), A genetic history of continuity and mobility in the Iron Age central Mediterranean, Supplementary Information

[Capsian20]

Does anyone know? Moots et al. associate the sample's Y-DNA with Bell Beakers but I saw someone claiming that it was actually R1b-V88.


“Of the 12 individuals at Kerkouane, 4 individuals are male. Three of these individuals, all from cluster #2 (non-local) all carry J2b, which has previously been associated with the Phoenician expansion. This differs from what is seen in the nuclear and mitochondrial analyses. This could be a two-step process, of this haplogroup dispersing in the Mediterranean and then arriving at Kerkouane. Alternatively, J2b is also found in the BA/Nuragic Sardinian individuals and may reflect the close ties between the Maghreb and Sardinia. Finally, one individual from cluster #1 carries haplogroup R1b [R11746], which is associated with Bell Beaker cultures in Europe and common in central Italy at this time and became prevalent in southern Iberia by the Bronze Age. This supports the possibility that the steppe component observed at Kerkouane may have been introduced through mobility occurring in the central and western Mediterranean” 


R11746: Y-DNA R1b, mtDNA T2b, 733 calBCE - 411.5 calBCE


- Moots et al. (2023), A genetic history of continuity and mobility in the Iron Age central Mediterranean, Supplementary Information

its R-V88 <BY17643

[James100]

Does anyone know? Moots et al. associate the sample's Y-DNA with Bell Beakers but I saw someone claiming that it was actually R1b-V88.


“Of the 12 individuals at Kerkouane, 4 individuals are male. Three of these individuals, all from cluster #2 (non-local) all carry J2b, which has previously been associated with the Phoenician expansion. This differs from what is seen in the nuclear and mitochondrial analyses. This could be a two-step process, of this haplogroup dispersing in the Mediterranean and then arriving at Kerkouane. Alternatively, J2b is also found in the BA/Nuragic Sardinian individuals and may reflect the close ties between the Maghreb and Sardinia. Finally, one individual from cluster #1 carries haplogroup R1b [R11746], which is associated with Bell Beaker cultures in Europe and common in central Italy at this time and became prevalent in southern Iberia by the Bronze Age. This supports the possibility that the steppe component observed at Kerkouane may have been introduced through mobility occurring in the central and western Mediterranean” 


R11746: Y-DNA R1b, mtDNA T2b, 733 calBCE - 411.5 calBCE


- Moots et al. (2023), A genetic history of continuity and mobility in the Iron Age central Mediterranean, Supplementary Information

its R-V88 <BY17643

Ok, thanks.

[Aramu]

I guess the Phoenician J2b is J2b1 and is unrelated to Sardinian J2b2a1

[GHurier]

“Of the 12 individuals at Kerkouane, 4 individuals are male. Three of these individuals, all from cluster #2 (non-local) all carry J2b, which has previously been associated with the Phoenician expansion.” This differs from what is seen in the nuclear and mitochondrial analyses. This could be a two-step process, of this haplogroup dispersing in the Mediterranean and then arriving at Kerkouane. Alternatively, J2b is also found in the BA/Nuragic Sardinian individuals and may reflect the close ties between the Maghreb and Sardinia."

If I remember well, this two J2b were Z38240+, and one was PH1601+ (a sublineage).
Which is important as PH1602 (PH1601+) https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1602/
Expanded massively around ~1100 BCE.
Some have also been documented during EIA in North-Western Croatia.

I guess the Phoenician J2b is J2b1 and is unrelated to Sardinian J2b2a1

Important to note, if really Z38240+, these samples have a quite old TMRCA with the Sardinian Nuragic L283 (~3100/3500 BCE).
They are descendents from a branch that expanded on the Adriatic (Z597), and more specifically of Y15058 that was a big component of the Cetina culture.

From what gives the PCA, it seems that :
--> The J-L283 dudes are recent arrival, admixed once or twice, from southern Europe (likely the Adriadic shores).
--> The R-V88 dude have been there for a way longer time (R-V88 entrance in North Africa from southern Europe, and likely Sardinia, occured during the Neolithic ~5600 BCE).

Bascially, the paper looses itself in haplogroup generalities (as often).
For a 2023 paper, this is a bit "lazy" (which is often the case of haplogroup analyses, that are just mention to fil the paper with few lines).

[TanTin]

Do we have these in Plink format (bed bim fam) ? Did someone converted them ? Or in case if they were already shared by the autors ?

[TanTin]

NM. I see they are in v54.1_1240K_public already.

[elflock]

I guess the Phoenician J2b is J2b1 and is unrelated to Sardinian J2b2a1

Nope. There's no M205 in that study. The two males belong to European J2b-L283>Y15058>Z38240(one confirmed >PH1602). Moots et al talks about Phoenicians citing a garbage 2000s paper of a Lebanese "scientist" claiming "all J2 expanded with Phoenicians". Long story short Moots doesn't know jack shit about uniparental analyisis hence her embarrassing non sense on these recent European arrivals in IA North Africa carrying West Balkan patrilineages (and auDNA admixture).

She also goes on to link R1b-V88 found in Kerkouane with the Bell Beakers, I mean, go off I guess.

[Pribislav]

Does anyone know? Moots et al. associate the sample's Y-DNA with Bell Beakers but I saw someone claiming that it was actually R1b-V88.


“Of the 12 individuals at Kerkouane, 4 individuals are male. Three of these individuals, all from cluster #2 (non-local) all carry J2b, which has previously been associated with the Phoenician expansion. This differs from what is seen in the nuclear and mitochondrial analyses. This could be a two-step process, of this haplogroup dispersing in the Mediterranean and then arriving at Kerkouane. Alternatively, J2b is also found in the BA/Nuragic Sardinian individuals and may reflect the close ties between the Maghreb and Sardinia. Finally, one individual from cluster #1 carries haplogroup R1b [R11746], which is associated with Bell Beaker cultures in Europe and common in central Italy at this time and became prevalent in southern Iberia by the Bronze Age. This supports the possibility that the steppe component observed at Kerkouane may have been introduced through mobility occurring in the central and western Mediterranean” 


R11746: Y-DNA R1b, mtDNA T2b, 733 calBCE - 411.5 calBCE


- Moots et al. (2023), A genetic history of continuity and mobility in the Iron Age central Mediterranean, Supplementary Information

R11746 is V88, but he doesn't belong to the "African" subclade Y8447/FGC21028, nor to the Sardinian Z30267. He belongs to lineage BY64640 (MRCA lived ~950 BC) which descends from Chalcolithic Balkan clade Y7777>F3867 (Pietrele, Smyadovo, Varna). He has at least 26 SNPs covered at BY64640 level, and all of them are derived. He also has one derived and four ancestral SNPs at downstream level BY17645, but derived SNP is G>A transition covered with just one read. So there's a possibility he is some early form of BY64640>pre-BY17645.

[Capsian20]

Does anyone know? Moots et al. associate the sample's Y-DNA with Bell Beakers but I saw someone claiming that it was actually R1b-V88.


“Of the 12 individuals at Kerkouane, 4 individuals are male. Three of these individuals, all from cluster #2 (non-local) all carry J2b, which has previously been associated with the Phoenician expansion. This differs from what is seen in the nuclear and mitochondrial analyses. This could be a two-step process, of this haplogroup dispersing in the Mediterranean and then arriving at Kerkouane. Alternatively, J2b is also found in the BA/Nuragic Sardinian individuals and may reflect the close ties between the Maghreb and Sardinia. Finally, one individual from cluster #1 carries haplogroup R1b [R11746], which is associated with Bell Beaker cultures in Europe and common in central Italy at this time and became prevalent in southern Iberia by the Bronze Age. This supports the possibility that the steppe component observed at Kerkouane may have been introduced through mobility occurring in the central and western Mediterranean” 


R11746: Y-DNA R1b, mtDNA T2b, 733 calBCE - 411.5 calBCE


- Moots et al. (2023), A genetic history of continuity and mobility in the Iron Age central Mediterranean, Supplementary Information

R11746 is V88, but he doesn't belong to the "African" subclade Y8447/FGC21028, nor to the Sardinian Z30267. He belongs to lineage BY64640 (MRCA lived ~950 BC) which descends from Chalcolithic Balkan clade Y7777>F3867 (Pietrele, Smyadovo, Varna). He has at least 26 SNPs covered at BY64640 level, and all of them are derived. He also has one derived and four ancestral SNPs at downstream level BY17645, but derived SNP is G>A transition covered with just one read. So there's a possibility he is some early form of BY64640>pre-BY17645.

do you have any info what is subclade North African under Hg R-V88 , for yet i see majority sample North African in YFULL (althgout its few samples) its belong under subclade R-Y8447

[Awood]

Gosh they really like redheads.