Evidence for dynastic succession among early Celtic elites

[Parastais]

Matrilineal dynasties?
Interesting. Always thought IEs were very Patriarchal cultures.

[Manofthehour]

The Picts appear to be an example of this (supposed matrilineal dynasties) if I'm not mistaken?

[Riverman]

Matrilineal dynasties?
Interesting. Always thought IEs were very Patriarchal cultures.

If they find a matrilinear connection between elites in different regions, this might primarily point to these elite women marrying in between these centres of power. On the other hand, if they could prove that three generations had the same mtDNA, but different yDNA each, they might have a point.
I doubt the latter is the case. Consider how many of the big European aristocratic lineages had or still have female Habsburg DNA. That doesn't mean all those houses were materilinear...

[J Man]

Matrilineal dynasties?
Interesting. Always thought IEs were very Patriarchal cultures.

If they find a matrilinear connection between elites in different regions, this might primarily point to these elite women marrying in between these centres of power. On the other hand, if they could prove that three generations had the same mtDNA, but different yDNA each, they might have a point.
I doubt the latter is the case. Consider how many of the big European aristocratic lineages had or still have female Habsburg DNA. That doesn't mean all those houses were materilinear...

I agree that they are likely jumping the gun on the matrilineal dynastic succession claim but only time and more samples will truly tell.

[Cejo]

Matrilineal dynasties?
Interesting. Always thought IEs were very Patriarchal cultures.

If they find a matrilinear connection between elites in different regions, this might primarily point to these elite women marrying in between these centres of power. On the other hand, if they could prove that three generations had the same mtDNA, but different yDNA each, they might have a point.
I doubt the latter is the case. Consider how many of the big European aristocratic lineages had or still have female Habsburg DNA. That doesn't mean all those houses were materilinear...

Fabrice E

...
These include a close biological relationship between two of the richest burial mounds of the Hallstatt culture. Bayesian modelling points to an avuncular relationship between the two individuals, which may suggest a practice of matrilineal dynastic succession in early Celtic elites.
...

I read this to mean they found an uncle in one rich burial mound, and his sister's child in another, since they called it avuncular. If I'm reading it correctly, that would seem suggestive, but it will definitely be interesting to learn more.

[Riverman]

Matrilineal dynasties?
Interesting. Always thought IEs were very Patriarchal cultures.

If they find a matrilinear connection between elites in different regions, this might primarily point to these elite women marrying in between these centres of power. On the other hand, if they could prove that three generations had the same mtDNA, but different yDNA each, they might have a point.
I doubt the latter is the case. Consider how many of the big European aristocratic lineages had or still have female Habsburg DNA. That doesn't mean all those houses were materilinear...

Fabrice E

...
These include a close biological relationship between two of the richest burial mounds of the Hallstatt culture. Bayesian modelling points to an avuncular relationship between the two individuals, which may suggest a practice of matrilineal dynastic succession in early Celtic elites.
...

I read this to mean they found an uncle in one rich burial mound, and his sister's child in another, since they called it avuncular. If I'm reading it correctly, that would seem suggestive, but it will definitely be interesting to learn more.

So one dynasty had a male, and in another was his sisters child buried. That just means that elite females were important and we deal with an aristocratic class which did marry among each others. That's obviously not (necessarily) the same as a matrilnear dynastic succession. It just means both males and females came from the same class of aristocratic people. Will be interesting to see how they might or might not differ from the commoners.

[Hodo Scariti]

Hodo

Celts M458:

Singen 265
Dunaalmás 25524
Prague 13780

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-M458/tree

Many thanks!

Are the other haplogroups of the group of ten Celts known? Are they R1b and I2a?

[Trojet]

MBG006.A0101.TF1 is J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

Unfortunately the coverage is not good enough for something more specific and I do not currently have time to check it thoroughly. But he is negative at: J-Z1297, J-Z631, J-Z38241, J-Y75277

Given the above information, and considering we have I4998; Hungary_IA_LaTene_o, north of the Balkans, I would say he is likely under J-Y15058 but not under J-Z38241. In all likelihood, a Cetina culture derived lineage since the oldest J-Z597+ samples come from this culture as can be seen in the J2b-L283 ancient DNA map.

[corrigendum]

MBG006.A0101.TF1 is J2b-L283>>Z615>Z597

Unfortunately the coverage is not good enough for something more specific and I do not currently have time to check it thoroughly. But he is negative at: J-Z1297, J-Z631, J-Z38241, J-Y75277

Given the above information, and considering we have I4998; Hungary_IA_LaTene_o, north of the Balkans, I would say he is likely under J-Y15058 but not under J-Z38241. In all likelihood, a Cetina culture derived lineage since the oldest J-Z597+ samples come from this culture as can be seen in the J2b-L283 ancient DNA map.

As he's likely Y15058, Cetina expansion in Slovenia and local contacts with pre-Tumulus Culture or a later eastern Hallstatt movement from this area seems like a good candidate.

[corrigendum]

Hodo

Celts M458:

Singen 265
Dunaalmás 25524
Prague 13780

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-M458/tree

Many thanks!

Are the other haplogroups of the group of ten Celts known? Are they R1b and I2a?

I've checked 11 samples with WGS Extract: 2 x R-P312, 2 x G-L497, 1 x I-L38, 1 x J-L283, the other five either had too low coverage (although manual checking might yield interesting data) or were females.

[Cejo]

Matrilineal dynasties?
Interesting. Always thought IEs were very Patriarchal cultures.

If they find a matrilinear connection between elites in different regions, this might primarily point to these elite women marrying in between these centres of power. On the other hand, if they could prove that three generations had the same mtDNA, but different yDNA each, they might have a point.
I doubt the latter is the case. Consider how many of the big European aristocratic lineages had or still have female Habsburg DNA. That doesn't mean all those houses were materilinear...

Fabrice E

...
These include a close biological relationship between two of the richest burial mounds of the Hallstatt culture. Bayesian modelling points to an avuncular relationship between the two individuals, which may suggest a practice of matrilineal dynastic succession in early Celtic elites.
...

I read this to mean they found an uncle in one rich burial mound, and his sister's child in another, since they called it avuncular. If I'm reading it correctly, that would seem suggestive, but it will definitely be interesting to learn more.

So one dynasty had a male, and in another was his sisters child buried. That just means that elite females were important and we deal with an aristocratic class which did marry among each others. That's obviously not (necessarily) the same as a matrilnear dynastic succession. It just means both males and females came from the same class of aristocratic people. Will be interesting to see how they might or might not differ from the commoners.

By my reading, which could certainly be wrong...since they are the two richest burials in the culture, it seems to suggest that the second generation inherited his (or her) uncle's status, via the uncle's sister, their mother. True, that doesn't necessarily imply matrilinear inheritance, but on the other hand, it seems to imply that women (or at least their children) could be in the line of succession. Marriage presumably wasn't a factor, or else the relationship wouldn't have been avuncular. 

The details will hopefully prove interesting.

[GHurier]

I've checked 11 samples with WGS Extract: 2 x R-P312, 2 x G-L497, 1 x I-L38, 1 x J-L283, the other five either had too low coverage (although manual checking might yield interesting data) or were females.

Hum ... J-L283 among Western-Hallstatt at Magdalenenberg (thus ~600-500 BCE).
Not a "big" surprise, but for discussions it will "help". 
Some ancient DNA proof are always good to get ...

[Orentil]

So, it seems that all samples are from Baden-Württemberg, Germany?

I think I remember an abstract from Joscha Gretzinger around two years ago speaking about early Celts in Southwest Germany but I don‘t find it in the moment.

[GHurier]

So, it seems that all samples are from Baden-Württemberg, Germany?

Yes, all samples seems to be localised around 3 main regions (if we got the meaning of the labels right) :
1- Stuttgart
2- Heuneburg
3- Magdalenenberg

[Telemachus]

I think I remember an abstract from Joscha Gretzinger around two years ago speaking about early Celts in Southwest Germany but I don‘t find it in the moment.

Here's the abstract: Kin and Power in Early Celtic Communities of Southwestern Germany.