Height and "Italian DNA"

[maximillianveers]

So I have no records of any Italian ancestors in my Family Tree, however different DNA companies show that I have some Northern Italian DNA, but what's interesting is that my brothers do not have traces of Italian DNA and they are both tall and have very bright eyes while I am shorter and have more muted eyes. Below is a crude map I've made of the average height differences in Europe compared with the height of my father, my brothers, and myself. Sometimes people think that my brothers are not related to me because of our height differences. 


My mother is shorter than me, she's 5 ft 3in, the same height as the Iceman of the Ötztal Alps, and I'm assuming this supposed "Italian DNA" comes from her. She is of Northern Scottish descent with some Southern Polish/Western Ukrainian ancestry. My tall brothers have East Slavic DNA so I doubt that her Polish/Ukrainian ancestry is related to her stature, which leaves her Northern Scottish ancestry. Now of course the Scottish are known for being tall, and some have Scandinavian ancestry, but I'm wondering if this "Italian DNA" could be related to an older, pre-Celtic, Scottish population that was more similar to people from Southern Europe. I know that having unknown "Italian DNA" is pretty common for people of Celtic ancestry in Canada and the USA. Note this is largely conjecture but please humour me, I'm curious about your thoughts on this subject.

[alanarchae]

So I have no records of any Italian ancestors in my Family Tree, however different DNA companies show that I have some Northern Italian DNA, but what's interesting is that my brothers do not have traces of Italian DNA and they are both tall and have very bright eyes while I am shorter and have more muted eyes. Below is a crude map I've made of the average height differences in Europe compared with the height of my father, my brothers, and myself. Sometimes people think that my brothers are not related to me because of our height differences. 


My mother is shorter than me, she's 5 ft 3in, the same height as the Iceman of the Ötztal Alps, and I'm assuming this supposed "Italian DNA" comes from her. She is of Northern Scottish descent with some Southern Polish/Western Ukrainian ancestry. My tall brothers have East Slavic DNA so I doubt that her Polish/Ukrainian ancestry is related to her stature, which leaves her Northern Scottish ancestry. Now of course the Scottish are known for being tall, and some have Scandinavian ancestry, but I'm wondering if this "Italian DNA" could be related to an older, pre-Celtic, Scottish population that was more similar to people from Southern Europe. I know that having unknown "Italian DNA" is pretty common for people of Celtic ancestry in Canada, and the USA. Note this is largely conjecture but please humour me, I'm curious about your thoughts on this subjec

Scots are not particularly tall. I grew up in Scotland and at 6ft 2 I was a lot taller than most of my contemporaries. It was more typical to be about 5ft 9. There were only maybe 2 people taller than me in the whole school and only by an inch or two.  That is of course a few decades back as i’m middle aged now but I haven’t noticed a huge jump. I live in ireland the Irish decades ago were similarly not often tall but I have seen a huge jump in height of folk who have become adults in the last 10 years. Really quite a such change with absolutely loads of tall lads. They are the people who have grown up
entirely in the era of Ireland’s greatest prosperity ever.  I’d  be pretty sure that today the young Irish are taller than young Scots or English on average. 

If you look at old records from the late 18th-mid 19th century there was a period where the west highlanders and Irish ranked among the tallest along with Swedes etc. That’s where the ‘tall’ reputation comes from. The reason for it was their diet was potato, milk and fish. This was far more nutritious than the bread based diet in other areas. So people with the potato and milk diets grew taller in that era than most areas. However the potato diet hit a huge buffer with the potato blight and famines in the mid 18th century and that removed the height advantage and was so calamitous that it was reversed. Probably like in most societies the upper classes were a lot taller than most of the people.

[maximillianveers]

Scots are not particularly tall. I grew up in Scotland and at 6ft 2 I was a lot taller than most of my contemporaries.

Thanks for the reply. My dad is 5ft 9in so you confirmed what I put on my map. I'm 5ft 7in while both of my brothers are 6ft 2in. While I do know some tall Italians, most that I know are either the same height as me or shorter. I've also read that Southern Europeans also tended to be this size in ancient times, regardless of famines.

Angel's anthropological studies of Greek skeletal remains give mean heights for Classical Greek males of 170.5 cm or 5' 7.1" (n = 58) and for Hellenistic Greek males of 171.9 cm or 5' 7.7" (n = 28), and his figures have been corroborated by further studies of material from Corinth and the Athenian Kerameikos.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ndards#pf7

[Sephesakueu]

Can´t Anglos and Scotts be 5´7 too ? Why blame some italian ancestry that you likely don´t even have? James McAvoy,Cyllian murphy and Brian Cox for example are all 5´7 and insular celts.
https://www.celebheights.com/tags/273.html
Average height among scotish actors according to this site is 5ft 9.9in (177.5cm) wich is not far from your height.

[member]

Scots are not particularly tall. I grew up in Scotland and at 6ft 2 I was a lot taller than most of my contemporaries.

Thanks for the reply. My dad is 5ft 9in so you confirmed what I put on my map. I'm 5ft 7in while both of my brothers are 6ft 2in. While I do know some tall Italians, most that I know are either the same height as me or shorter. I've also read that Southern Europeans also tended to be this size in ancient times, regardless of famines.

Angel's anthropological studies of Greek skeletal remains give mean heights for Classical Greek males of 170.5 cm or 5' 7.1" (n = 58) and for Hellenistic Greek males of 171.9 cm or 5' 7.7" (n = 28), and his figures have been corroborated by further studies of material from Corinth and the Athenian Kerameikos.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication...ndards#pf7

171-172 cm back then was quite above the average

[maximillianveers]

Can´t Anglos and Scotts be 5´7 too ? Why blame some italian ancestry that you likely don´t even have?  James McAvoy,Cyllian murphy and Brian Cox for example are all 5´7 and insular celts.
https://www.celebheights.com/tags/273.html
Average height among scotish actors according to this site is  5ft 9.9in (177.5cm) wich is not far from your height.

Did you see the map? I already know that the average height in the UK is 5ft 9in. That's what blue represents. And I'm not "blaming Italian ancestry", I'm exploring the possibility that height has something to do with why some Anglos and Scotts get "Northern Italian" on their DNA tests. 

171-172 cm back then was quite above the average

I'm talking specifically about the average height of men in ancient Rome and Greece. Remember how I mentioned Ötzi the Iceman who was only 5ft 3in (the same height as my mother), well I have seen people who look exactly like him around today. This also goes for most facial reconstructions of ancient or prehistoric people. I know for myself, I have a Neanderthal body and a Cro-Magnon skull.

[duke]

why do you think that Istria has short avarage?

https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/...height.png

[member]

171-172 cm back then was quite above the average

I'm talking specifically about the average height of men in ancient Rome and Greece. Remember how I mentioned Ötzi the Iceman who was only 5ft 3in (the same height as my mother), well I have seen people who look exactly like him around today. This also goes for most facial reconstructions of ancient or prehistoric people. I know for myself, I have a Neanderthal body and a Cro-Magnon skull.

What I am trying to say is that 171-172 cm would be 1-2 inches above Roman military standard for infantry. It would be on par with Germanic warriors who Romans deemed to be the tallest in Europe, and that's even a couple of centuries before Romans encountered Germanic tribes. So that's not short at all. Even today Greeks are not short.

As regards to Otzi the Iceman... I doubt there are similar people like him. That would require a group that's immensely isolated from flows of events in the central Europe for the last 10000 years or so. Simply impossible. Same goes for Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons.

[maximillianveers]

What I am trying to say is that 171-172 cm would be 1-2 inches above Roman military standard for infantry. It would be on par with Germanic warriors who Romans deemed to be the tallest in Europe, and that's even a couple of centuries before Romans encountered Germanic tribes. So that's not short at all. Even today Greeks are not short.

As regards to Otzi the Iceman... I doubt there are similar people like him. That would require a group that's immensely isolated from flows of events in the central Europe for the last 10000 years or so. Simply impossible. Same goes for Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons.

What you just confirmed is that I'd be considered a little taller than most Romans, but 5ft 7in is still not as tall as 6ft 2in. Also, why would it be impossible for people to reflect the traits of ancient or prehistoric people? When I said I have a Neanderthal-like body I meant that I'm stocky, have apish arms, and shorter fingers. And when I said I have a Cro-Magnon-like skull I meant that the top of my head is round (not elongated) and block-shaped with protruding brows. 

why do you think that Istria has short avarage?

https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/...height.png

According to your chart, people from Istria tend to be taller than me. Still, an obvious reason for why they are shorter than other Southern Slavs from the Balkans is that they are more Italian. This can also be seen in their architecture which is more Western and their well-preserved Roman ruins. The same applies to Albanians. There is a reason that the Italian Irredentism of the late 19th century and early 20th century wished to incorporate Croatia and Albania into their state. 

[Albruic]

171-172 cm back then was quite above the average

I'm talking specifically about the average height of men in ancient Rome and Greece. Remember how I mentioned Ötzi the Iceman who was only 5ft 3in (the same height as my mother), well I have seen people who look exactly like him around today. This also goes for most facial reconstructions of ancient or prehistoric people. I know for myself, I have a Neanderthal body and a Cro-Magnon skull.

What I am trying to say is that 171-172 cm would be 1-2 inches above Roman military standard for infantry. It would be on par with Germanic warriors who Romans deemed to be the tallest in Europe, and that's even a couple of centuries before Romans encountered Germanic tribes. So that's not short at all. Even today Greeks are not short.

As regards to Otzi the Iceman... I doubt there are similar people like him. That would require a group that's immensely isolated from flows of events in the central Europe for the last 10000 years or so. Simply impossible. Same goes for Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons.

What does archaeology says about the height of Germans in the Iron Age? 
We all know Romans used to describe barbarians as taller and stronger, but I always sensed some kind of propaganda in that. "They were taller, stronger, didn't wear armor, didn't need any kind of strategy on the battlefield but we beat them anyways because we are simply better"

[duke]

According to your chart, people from Istria tend to be taller than me. Still, an obvious reason for why they are shorter than other Southern Slavs from the Balkans is that they are more Italian. This can also be seen in their architecture which is more Western and their well-preserved Roman ruins. The same applies to Albanians. There is a reason that the Italian Irredentism of the late 19th century and early 20th century wished to incorporate Croatia and Albania into their state. 

You are on the spectrum?

[maximillianveers]

You are on the spectrum?

If you mean the Awesism spectrum then the answer is YES, but then again so is Elon Musk.

What does archaeology says about the height of Germans in the Iron Age? 
We all know Romans used to describe barbarians as taller and stronger, but I always sensed some kind of propaganda in that. "They were taller, stronger, didn't wear armor, didn't need any kind of strategy on the battlefield but we beat them anyways because we are simply better"

There are remains such as the Hochdorf chieftain who was 5ft 9in.

The term "Germanic barbarians" definitely can apply to a multitude of Northern Europeans and doesn't necessarily refer to Germany. There are Roman statues of barbarians that do look like people from Northern Europe today. Below is a statue of a dying Gaul, notice the torque around his neck.

[alexfritz]

171-172 cm back then was quite above the average

I'm talking specifically about the average height of men in ancient Rome and Greece. Remember how I mentioned Ötzi the Iceman who was only 5ft 3in (the same height as my mother), well I have seen people who look exactly like him around today. This also goes for most facial reconstructions of ancient or prehistoric people. I know for myself, I have a Neanderthal body and a Cro-Magnon skull.

What I am trying to say is that 171-172 cm would be 1-2 inches above Roman military standard for infantry. It would be on par with Germanic warriors who Romans deemed to be the tallest in Europe, and that's even a couple of centuries before Romans encountered Germanic tribes. So that's not short at all. Even today Greeks are not short.

As regards to Otzi the Iceman... I doubt there are similar people like him. That would require a group that's immensely isolated from flows of events in the central Europe for the last 10000 years or so. Simply impossible. Same goes for Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons.

the so-called roman military standard of quinque pedibus et septem unciis is a mention in the Cx Theodosianus (late antiquity) whether that was always the standard or whether a standard had always prev existed is however not certain

but going with that standard there is data from Bisel's health examination of the Herculaneum skeletons (79 CE) incl stature; the males avg was 169.1 cm (n=51) ie higher on avg than the standard if said standard also existed during the principate, and acc to jp roth one of the skeletons at Herculaneum that was identified as a soldier was 174.5 cm

[Artmar]

I have a spreadsheet file with an anthropological data (including height) on 2177 skeletons from as old as 26kya BP to almost contemporary ones.

Ironically, among the tallest ones there is an "Italian" Upper Paleolithic hunter gatherer from Barma Grande site being ~190, so just slightly shorter than me.

Found a sketch showing the burial. No need to doubt this is an adult male from the spreadsheet is likely the beanpole to the right.

[FionnSneachta]

I live in ireland the Irish decades ago were similarly not often tall but I have seen a huge jump in height of folk who have become adults in the last 10 years. Really quite a such change with absolutely loads of tall lads. They are the people who have grown up entirely in the era of Ireland’s greatest prosperity ever.  I’d  be pretty sure that today the young Irish are taller than young Scots or English on average. 

My dad often remarks on this. My dad claims to be 5'8" (although I think that he might be an inch or two shorter) and born in 1958. He often remarks how he wasn't considered short when he was young and most were around his height. Whereas he remarks that the young people are giants now. You will always get some exceptions but, on the whole, the young generation now seem to tower over their parents.