R1b-Z209

[maximillianveers]

Does anyone know anything about R1b-Z209? My direct paternal line comes from the Loire Valley in France.

[rmstevens2]

Does anyone know anything about R1b-Z209? My direct paternal line comes from the Loire Valley in France.

That's downstream of R1b-DF27. Have you checked out Family Tree DNA Discover?

R-Z209 Haplogroup Story

[miquirumba]

This is one of oldest R-Z209/S230 samples with Y marker confirmed both FTDNA and Theytree in their independent analysis
https://www.theytree.com/usersample/09a7...ba621.html
The most of Argar Culture R1b-Z195 and R1b-Z198 subclades are extincted or so very low frequency to detect in living people. Zapateria 2 from Lorca is Middle Bronze Age in the period of Argar's cities fall. R-Z209 nowadays in one of more successful clades from NE Iberia from Basque Country to Catalonia. I think that french and continebtal Z209 subclades are a celtic feedback during Late Bronze Age migrations and urnfield expansion

[maximillianveers]

That's downstream of R1b-DF27. Have you checked out Family Tree DNA Discover?

Yes, but I was hoping for something connected with archeology and history like miquirumba's answer. Would I be correct in assuming then that it came from PIE who settled in the mountains of Northern Spain?

[rmstevens2]

That's downstream of R1b-DF27. Have you checked out Family Tree DNA Discover?

Yes, but I was hoping for something connected with archeology and history like miquirumba's answer. Would I be correct in assuming then that it came from PIE who settled in the mountains of Northern Spain?

Well, if FTDNA Discover's TMRCA estimate (2600 BC) is right, Z209's ancestor DF27 probably first appeared in a man of the Corded Ware culture in Central or Northern Europe. 

FTDNA Discover's TMRCA estimate for Z209 is 2150 BC, which would place its origin in the Bell Beaker culture, and Bell Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware. I'm not sure where Z209 first appeared, perhaps Spain, maybe France, maybe farther east. As you know, the oldest Z209 sample in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections is Zapateria 2, 1750-1500 BC, from the Late El Argar culture in Zapatería, Lorca, Murcia, Spain (sample ZAP002 from Villalba-Mouco et al, 2021). But that sample is quite a bit younger than Z209's TMRCA, so it doesn't really tell us where Z209 first appeared.

[miquirumba]

I agree with rmstevens2 that R-Z209 is too much old to be born in Iberia and there's no Z209 among first R1b-P312 samples from Early Bronze age. There's scandinavian Z209 branches splitted since Iron Age and rarest subclades are mainly french therefore we can speculate with Z209 as French Bell Beaker ancient clade although there's no ancient samples in Late Calcholithic or Early Bronze Age with this marker checked from France

[ilabv]

That's downstream of R1b-DF27. Have you checked out Family Tree DNA Discover?

Yes, but I was hoping for something connected with archeology and history like miquirumba's answer. Would I be correct in assuming then that it came from PIE who settled in the mountains of Northern Spain?

Well, if FTDNA Discover's TMRCA estimate (2600 BC) is right, Z209's ancestor DF27 probably first appeared in a man of the Corded Ware culture in Central or Northern Europe. 

FTDNA Discover's TMRCA estimate for Z209 is 2150 BC, which would place its origin in the Bell Beaker culture, and Bell Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware. I'm not sure where Z209 first appeared, perhaps Spain, maybe France, maybe farther east. As you know, the oldest Z209 sample in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections is Zapateria 2, 1750-1500 BC, from the Late El Argar culture in Zapatería, Lorca, Murcia, Spain (sample ZAP002 from Villalba-Mouco et al, 2021). But that sample is quite a bit younger than Z209's TMRCA, so it doesn't really tell us where Z209 first appeared.

Sorry for the off-topic question, but do you know if there's a way to search for the haplos of particular samples on FTDNA? I don't see an area where I can enter a sample ID and find if their haplos are posted on the site

[rmstevens2]

That's downstream of R1b-DF27. Have you checked out Family Tree DNA Discover?

Yes, but I was hoping for something connected with archeology and history like miquirumba's answer. Would I be correct in assuming then that it came from PIE who settled in the mountains of Northern Spain?

Well, if FTDNA Discover's TMRCA estimate (2600 BC) is right, Z209's ancestor DF27 probably first appeared in a man of the Corded Ware culture in Central or Northern Europe. 

FTDNA Discover's TMRCA estimate for Z209 is 2150 BC, which would place its origin in the Bell Beaker culture, and Bell Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware. I'm not sure where Z209 first appeared, perhaps Spain, maybe France, maybe farther east. As you know, the oldest Z209 sample in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections is Zapateria 2, 1750-1500 BC, from the Late El Argar culture in Zapatería, Lorca, Murcia, Spain (sample ZAP002 from Villalba-Mouco et al, 2021). But that sample is quite a bit younger than Z209's TMRCA, so it doesn't really tell us where Z209 first appeared.

Sorry for the off-topic question, but do you know if there's a way to search for the haplos of particular samples on FTDNA? I don't see an area where I can enter a sample ID and find if their haplos are posted on the site

I don't think that can be done. You'd just have to find those kit numbers in their projects.

[maximillianveers]

I agree with rmstevens2  that R-Z209 is too much old to be born in Iberia and there's no Z209 among first R1b-P312 samples from Early Bronze age. There's scandinavian Z209 branches splitted since Iron Age and rarest subclades are mainly french therefore we can speculate with Z209 as French Bell Beaker ancient clade although there's no ancient samples in Late Calcholithic or Early Bronze Age with this marker checked from France

So you're saying it came from Scandinavia and it is older than Bronze Age cultures? If that's the case then maybe the Scandinavian custom of cremating the dead is why there are fewer samples. 

My direct French ancestor on my father's side lived as a baker in what is now Tours, Centre-Val de Loire, France in the late 17th century before moving to Montreal, Canada. As far as I know, he would have appeared as an average Quebecer with dark brown hair, light skin, and bright blue eyes (like Trudeau but perhaps a little shorter). 

[miquirumba]

I agree with rmstevens2  that R-Z209 is too much old to be born in Iberia and there's no Z209 among first R1b-P312 samples from Early Bronze age. There's scandinavian Z209 branches splitted since Iron Age and rarest subclades are mainly french therefore we can speculate with Z209 as French Bell Beaker ancient clade although there's no ancient samples in Late Calcholithic or Early Bronze Age with this marker checked from France

So you're saying it came from Scandinavia and it is older than Bronze Age cultures? If that's the case then maybe the Scandinavian custom of cremating the dead is why there are fewer samples. 

My direct French ancestor on my father's side lived as a baker in what is now Tours, Centre-Val de Loire, France in the late 17th century before moving to Montreal, Canada. As far as I know, he would have appeared as an average Quebecer with dark brown hair, light skin, and bright blue eyes (like Trudeau but perhaps a little shorter). 

no, I am simply saying that one specific subclade below RZ209>Z419/S21184>-S19290 moved to Scandinavia during Late Iron Age, surely  in last celtic wave to Baltic Islands that haved been reported recently by archeology. You must check your full subclade by YSEQ R-DF27 SNP panel or further sequencia via FTDNA Big Y or Nebula Genomics WGS 30x to know which specific branch you belong to. R-S21184/Z419 is almost confirmed to be related to Early Gauls with a high frequency in Ireland nowadays
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-S19290/story

R-S19290

[maximillianveers]

no, I am simply saying that one specific subclade below RZ209>Z419/S21184>-S19290 moved to Scandinavia during Late Iron Age, surely  in last celtic wave to Baltic Islands that haved been reported recently by archeology. You must check your full subclade by YSEQ R-DF27 SNP panel or further sequencia via FTDNA Big Y or Nebula Genomics WGS 30x to know which specific branch you belong to. R-S21184/Z419 is almost confirmed to be related to Early Gauls with a high frequency in Ireland nowadays.

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-S19290/story

R-S19290

Thanks for the clarification. So most likely just France then.