Slavic incursions of the Balkans

[Beast]

Origins: Serbs, Albanians and Vlachs

[Beast]

Imagine claiming to be the original inhabitants:

1. In a territory where you are not mentioned until the 12th-14th century
2. Speak a language that originated somewhere in the Czech Republic
3. Dominated by Slavic Y-DNA (I2a1b + R1a)
4. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia (homeland)
5. Carry the name of an Iranian tribe somewhere in the Caucausus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi)


Ask yourself first, how did these people even get into the Balkans ?

[Archetype0ne]

My friend, it seems the facebook and twitter trolling, or possibly the propaganda of the masses for political reasons got you a little rattled.

My advise is either ignore the bs on such unserious social media (since usually you just amplify those posts when engaging). Or if you can't, then post a reply with sources as a comment to such propaganda.

But I feel that preaching in genarchivist (being a spiritual successor of anthrogenica) is like preaching to the choir.
There is plenty of high quality threads on Slavic origins in this forum where you can learn a lot and also see the current consensus (so to say). But the theme is usually more neutral, without the political undertone (props to the mods).

And in my opinion, arguing from a narrative of autochtonous-vs-invaders serves only to bring twitter like rants, to a community that knows better. Just my friendly two cents, I know that the narratives online can feel unjust and trigger indignation, so I kind of understand you.

[targaryen]

With all due respect to these past authors of the 20th century like Noel Malcom, whether they got things wrong or right, 2024 might as well be centuries removed after the latest genetic/linguistic research and debunked like 99% of theories.

I'm not just talking about autosomal or Y-DNA or whatever. But for example we literally have a strong IBD hit between a man in Martinsicuro in eastern Italy, right next to Messapic territory, with another man from Bronze Age Kukes. It's so high, that the Kukes man might as well be an ancestor of this Messapic man. This was impossible to detect last century. 

Not only do we have the technology to prove Albanians are largely of Paleo-Balkanic origin, but we can pinpoint exact relatives. Anyone arguing this stuff, is just bashing their heads against a wall.

[targaryen]

Also, Malcolm mentions, Naissus -> Nish, but fails to mention Lissus -> Lesh (now Lezhe). It'd be nice to actually see it written out, not just mentioned in passing.

That proves Albanian was not some pinpoint small dot on a map, but it covered a huge area from Albanopolis near modern Lezhe, all the way to southern Serbia.

[Beast]

Please enlighten us, when was this place ever Serb ??? In fact, there used to be literally no Serbs here until the late medieval period!! For most of it's history there is like no mention of any Serbs here, Yet they claim they are directly descendants of the Iron Age population that lived here!! Not only them, but even their so called fans. Having some Balkan admixture acquired through a process of 1500 years , largely from also Albanian and Vlachs/Aromanians/Romanians is irrelevant, it's not like no one else has that or people weren't displaced or countless other empires, those aren't arguments. Those weren't the early Serbs or the original Serbs but they talk as if they were. This is the most ironic thing. There used to be no Serbs here yet they claim these areas have always been Serb!

[Beast]

Even when you look at all the ancient DNA or Y-DNA, they don't even match Serbs most of it. Not even in Serbia in Vimacium, Timacum Minus, there is no connection to Serbs.

By the mid-seventh century, Serbs (or Serb-led Slavs) were penetrating from the coastal lands of Montenegro into northern Albania. Major ports and towns such as Durres and Shkodra held out against them, but much of the countryside was Slavicized, and some Slav settlers moved up the valleys into the Malesi. By the ninth century, Slav-speaking people were an important element of the population in much of northern Albania, excluding the towns and the higher mountainous areas (especially the mountains in the eastern part of the Malesi, towards Kosovo). [8] Slav-speaking people lived in the lowlands of this area, gradually becoming a major component of the urban population too, until the end of the Middle Ages. [9]

Only in the ninth century do we see the expansion of a strong Slav (or quasi-Slav) power into this region. Under a series of ambitious rulers, the Bulgarians - a Slav population which absorbed, linguistically and culturally, its ruling elite of Turkic Bulgars - pushed westwards across modern Macedonia and eastern Serbia, until by the 850s they had taken over Kosovo and were pressing on the borders of Rascia. Soon afterwards they took the western Macedonian town of Ohrid; having recently converted to Christianity, the Bulgar rulers helped to set up a bishopric in Ohrid, which thus became an important centre of Slav culture for the whole region. And at the same time the Bulgarians were pushing on into southern and central Albania, which became thoroughly settled by Bulgarian Slavs during the course of the following century. [19]

The previous chapter brought the political history (if such it may be called) of Kosovo up to the final period of Bulgarian-Macedonian rule, before the territory of Tsar Samuel was reconquered by the Byzantine Emperor Basil the Bulgar-slayer. Medieval Kosovo is often referred to in general terms as 'the cradle of the Serbs', as if it had been a Serb heartland from the outset; but the reality was rather different. Just over 800 years separate the arrival of the Serbs in the Balkans in the seventh century from the final Ottoman conquest in the 1450s: out of those eight centuries, kosovo was Serb-ruled for only the last two-and-a-half - less that on-ethird of the entire period. Bulgarian khans or tsars held Kosovo from the 850s until the early eleventh century, and Byzantine Emperors until the final decades of the twelfth.

[targaryen]

I don't think some people quite understand how "survivor languages" work. When you take a look at the few handful of Celtic speakers nowadays in Wales or Ireland, it's not because they were always a small population. Celts were the largest ethnic group in Europe at a certain point, but overtime got reduced to a small population. The same with Basques. They are probably the relics of an EEF or WHG language that was spoken all over Europe at a certain point. Anytime you have a survivor language like Albanian, it's because they were part of a MUCH, MUCH larger ethnic group that got reduced down to a smaller one.

My issue with some of these "E-V13 conspiracy theorists" is they pretend Albanians were just 12 shepherds somewhere in the Central-Eastern Balkans that somehow survived the Roman Empire and the Migration Age without anyone noticing. This is completely absurd and goes contrary to anything we know about history. Albanian is a survivor language and as such was part of a much larger group that spanned massive regions. The much larger "Albanoid" group, went from eastern Italy to Croatia to Nish in Serbia, to bordering the Epirotes in the south. We have ancient toponyms that correspond to the Albanian language for all these places. From the Messapics to Delminium to Nish to Dimallum.

So anytime you see a small language nowadays, remember they were part of a much larger group at some point in the past, especially if that region has been wartorn by empires for all its lifetime.