Here's a dumb question

[rmstevens2]

I read somewhere recently that EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherer) is a combination of Western Hunter Gatherer and Ancient North Eurasian. Is that true?

If that is so, then what happens when EHGs mix with WHGs? Do you subtract the WHG portion of the EHG combo to get the true WHG figure? 

Sorry if that sounds dumb. I realize it probably is, and maybe the whole premise of my question is wrong.

[AimSmall]

Wikipedia is supporting that claim, though I don't know their source material.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Hu...rs%20(WHG).

The Eastern Hunter Gatherer genetic profile is mainly derived from Ancient North Eurasian (ANE) ancestry, which was introduced from Siberia,[4] with a secondary and smaller admixture of European Western Hunter-Gatherers (WHG).[5][6] Still, the relationship between the ANE and EHG ancestral components is not yet well understood due to lack of samples that could bridge the spatiotemporal gap.[5]

[TanTin]

I read somewhere recently that EHG (Eastern Hunter Gatherer) is a combination of Western Hunter Gatherer and Ancient North Eurasian. Is that true?

If that is so, then what happens when EHGs mix with WHGs? Do you subtract the WHG portion of the EHG combo to get the true WHG figure? 

Sorry if that sounds dumb. I realize it probably is, and maybe the whole premise of my question is wrong.

This is true.  EHG can be presented as a combination of WHG and ANE.
When EHG mix with WHG they are displayed more closely to WHG.. And the opposite is true. If the mixture is more of ANE, they would display on ANE side.  There is a pretty good line connecting WHG to ANE and we see many EHG examples  on this line in PCA. 
We don't need to substract EHG to have an idea what are WHG.. We have too many excellent examples of WHG.

[AimSmall]

https://www.quora.com/How-were-the-Weste...each-other

Ygor Coelho has a robust answer to this question. I don't know him or his background, but it's an interesting read on the matter.

[Jotunn]

It's more accurate to say EHG is a mixture of Epi-Gravettian and ANE. WHG in some cases (i.e. Iberia) is a mixture of Epi-Gravettian and Magdalenian. EHGs do not have any Magdalenian ancestry.

[Kale]

Mesolithic Europeans have effectively 4 poles of variation.
1) Italian Epigravettian
2) Magdelanian
3) ANE
4) something Pinarbasi-like (think how IronGates differs from WHG)
EHG are ~55% ANE, and the rest a little more extreme than IronGates.

[old europe]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10412644/

Yes EHG in this recent study is modeled as an equal split ( 50/50)on average of WHG and ANE

[Jalisciense]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10412644/

Yes EHG in this recent study is modeled as an equal split ( 50/50)on average of WHG and ANE

Yeah, but it was more: 59% ANE (AfontovaGora3) + 41% WHG (Loschbour).

[old europe]

Probably the 59/41 is for Minimo sample


In the latter case the Mesolithic Sidelkino9 represents the EHG and Loschbour the WHG. A model-based two-source analysis separated the admixture model (WHG-AfontovaGora3) from the best single-source models in 19 cases (nested p-value < 0.05) and in 15 cases both single-source models were rejected (tail probability < 0.05). The estimated admixture proportions of WHG-related ancestry ranged from 50.9% (40.9–60.9%, 95% Jackknife CI) for Sidelkino to 88% (76.2–99.8%) for SC1 (Supplementary Data 6

SC1 is Iron Gates

[old europe]

In turn ANE had most of its ancestry from european aurignacian ( around 3/4 of it) the rest being Tianyuan like



Their West Eurasian-related component can be associated with ancestry found among Paleolithic European hunter-gatherers, such as Kostenki-14, Sunghir, or the Peștera Muierii woman,[27] while their East Eurasian-related component can be associated with ancestry found among a population related to the Paleolithic Tianyuan man, who is basal to contemporary East/Southeast Asians.[28][29][30][31][32][33][c][d][34][13][14]

[Jack Johnson]

Mesolithic Europeans have effectively 4 poles of variation.
1) Italian Epigravettian
2) Magdelanian
3) ANE
4) something Pinarbasi-like (think how IronGates differs from WHG)
EHG are ~55% ANE, and the rest a little more extreme than IronGates.

Do EHGs have anything Goyet related via the Italian Epigravettian? And by more extreme than Iron Gates you mean they have ancestries related to the other three aforementioned poles of variation?

[rmstevens2]

So, being thick as a brick as I often am, I get the idea that, basically, at the level down where we laymen can understand, EHG is something pretty close to a 50/50 combination of WHG and ANE.

[TanTin]

Mesolithic Europeans have effectively 4 poles of variation.
1) Italian Epigravettian
2) Magdelanian
3) ANE
4) something Pinarbasi-like (think how IronGates differs from WHG)
EHG are ~55% ANE, and the rest a little more extreme than IronGates.

Do EHGs have anything Goyet related via the Italian Epigravettian? And by more extreme than Iron Gates you mean they have ancestries related to the other three aforementioned poles of variation?

I am not able to argue about the additional components. The 2 main components are WHG and ANE.. If we check further if these were Basal / Neanderthal/ non-Basal etc -  then we may continue to classify them in more categories.  There is a 3-rd component in addition to  WHG and ANE.
This third component could be presented as a combination of  (WHG + ANE + something else) . And I can tell you also where this 3-rd component came from.  From the South of course..  So WHG are not homogenous. And of course EHG are not homogenous as well. 
If you ask me who is the real and the best representative of WHG:  my answer is: Loschbour man.

[rmstevens2]

Suppose you have an ancient sample that post dates most ANE but is 20% ANE and and 80% WHG. Does that mean he is really 40% EHG and 60% WHG?

[Kale]

Do EHGs have anything Goyet related via the Italian Epigravettian? And by more extreme than Iron Gates you mean they have ancestries related to the other three aforementioned poles of variation?

It's difficult to say. Italian Epigravettians may have some Goyet related ancestry, or their BK1653/Sunghir ratio may be different than the Gravettians we currently have sampled (Goyet is more related to BK1653 than Sunghir). The former might be better supported at this point by mt-U10 (shared with a Solutrean who looks ~100% Goyet-related). Even if they do, it's not a lot, might reach 10%. Water that down with 55% ANE, and some Southern ancestry, and it becomes a little too low to make a direct ascertaining of whether EHG have any Goyet. By more extreme IronGates I mean more Southern ancestry.

Suppose you have an ancient sample that post dates most ANE but is 20% ANE and and 80% WHG. Does that mean he is really 40% EHG and 60% WHG?

It really means EHG and WHG are not semantically useful terms anymore now that we've sampled the whole ANE <-> Italian Epigravettian cline.