R1b-L389: Eastern Branch of R1b-L761?

[rmstevens2]

Sorry for posting my R1b-L754 Descendant Tree yet again (I've posted it on other threads), but it's good to begin this discussion with a picture that helps me (and maybe others) to see the relationships we'll be discussing. So, here it is again:



IMHO, all of R1b-M343 is eastern in origin. By "eastern" I mean east of peninsular Europe. The closer to the R1b-M343 root, the farther east, in my opinion. Pretty obviously, it seems to me, R1b-PF6323 was the first R1b branch to move wholesale into peninsular Europe. If you're interested in a discussion of its unique history and trajectory, see this thread.

This thread, however, is about R1b-L389, which is evidently eastern in origin (remember my definition of "eastern" above) and hung back out of peninsular Europe a lot longer than PF6323 did - mostly until the 3rd millennium BC, in fact. L389, especially R1b-M269, probably had a hand in the demise of its kinsman PF6323 in Europe (PF6323 is rare in Europe today - see the PF6323 thread at the link above).

If you look at the L389 clade, it all begins and remains for a long time east of peninsular Europe. By "peninsular Europe" I mean Europe west of a straight line roughly drawn from the west coast of Lithuania down to the west (mostly Bulgarian) coast of the Black Sea. In other words, Europe as a peninsula, between the Baltic and North Seas in the north and the Aegean and Mediterranean Seas in the south.

As you can see in the descendant tree above, there are two siblings under L389: P297 and BY15337. Let's work from left to right and start with P297. 

The two sibling lines under P297 are M73 and M269. R1b-M73 has its own subforum and is discussed there in this thread. No need to rehash all that here, at least not in the opening post of this thread.

So, let's begin with a little bit about P7562 under M269. Here are some interesting comments about PF7562 on pages 332-333 of the Supplementary Information from the 2022 Lazaridis et al "Southern Arc" paper:

An extremely interesting pattern is observed for haplogroup R-PF7562 represented entirely in our data from its child lineage R-PF7563. R-PF7562 is a child lineage of the prominent West Eurasian R-M269 lineage whose other child lineage R-L23 is the parent of the “mainland European” L-51 and “steppe” R-Z2103 lineages. The two child lineages of R-M269 are massively disproportionately represented in our data, with the popular R-L23 (from which the dominant lineages of Yamnaya, Bell Beaker, and South Caucasus populations were derived) occurring in 268 samples, while R-PF7562 only occurs in 5.

The earliest occurrence of R-PF7562 is in LYG001, a 2866-2580 calBCE sample from Lysogorskaya 6, kurgan 3, grave 4 in the North Caucasus Piedmont of Russia.(17) . . .

But, what of the other 4 examples of R-PF7562? The second most ancient example is a Mycenaean individual from the Palace of Nestor in Pylos (I13518; Kokkevis, Tomb V; 1450- 1200 BCE) and his 1st degree relative I13506 buried in the same tomb. This establishes a connection between Mycenaean Greece and the North Caucasus on one hand, and more broadly the R-L23 descendants of the steppe and mainland Europe. The remaining samples of R-PF7562 are much later: two Roman/Byzantine individuals from the Aegean region of Anatolia (I20000 and I20266) and a medieval sample from Albania (I13834).

The 2023 Skourtanioti et al paper, "Ancient DNA reveals admixture history and endogamy in the prehistoric Aegean" identified an Aegean PF7562 older (maybe) than sample I13518 from the Palace of Nestor mentioned by Lazaridis et al in the quote above. He is sample XAN030 from Crete, called in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections "Kydonia 30" and dated 1700-1200 BC. XAN030 is named in the Skourtanioti et al paper as belonging to a cluster "with high WES ancestry". "WES" means "Western Eurasian Steppe Herder" (see page 291 of the paper).

So, it seems to me that PF7562 was among the Indo-Europeans who brought the Greek language to what is now Greece and the Aegean. 

I guess that's enough from me for the first post in this thread. Feel free to post your own opinions.

[rmstevens2]

Moving left to right in the tree posted in the first post above, we come to R1b-L23, which is pretty well known. Under L23 are the two sibling clades, L51 and Z2103. L51 is represented in the steppe pastoralist Afanasievo culture, in the oldest Corded Ware samples thus far known, and in Bell Beaker. Z2103 is dominant in the steppe pastoralist Yamnaya culture, but it's in Afanasievo, Corded Ware, and Bell Beaker, as well.

It's probably not necessary to talk about the numerous L51 and Z2103 samples from the cultures mentioned above, all of which cultures are thought to be important in the Indo-European saga. 

Next we'll discuss BY15337 and V1636. Feel free to post about anything having to do with L389 though. I don't want to be the only one posting in this thread.

[rmstevens2]

Last so far under R1b-L389 is the BY15337 branch. The SNP BY15337 was recently discovered as a consequence of testing the ancient sample NL122, known as "Nalchik 1" in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections. Nalchik 1 split what had been the R1b-V1636 block into R1b-BY15337, with its six SNPs (formerly in the V1636 block), and V1636, with its huge 121-SNP block. Nalchik 1, needless to say, was derived for the BY15337 block but ancestral for the V1636 block.

The kurgans in Nalchik in the North Caucasus piedmont have been the subject of curiosity and discussion for a long time. The following is from Mallory's In Search of the Indo-Europeans, pages 205-206:

One of the earliest north Caucasian sites of importance is the cemetery at Nalchik. Here were found 147 burials placed under very low mounds which together formed an extensive low kurgan covering an area of about 300 square metres. Although twelve of the burials were found in the supine position with legs flexed (as we frequently encounter in the steppe), the majority were deposited on their sides, males on their right and females on their left. Ochre frequently accompanied the burials . . .

Nalchik precedes the Maykop culture which takes its name from the famous royal barrow at Maykop southeast of the Sea of Azov . . . Burials are typically found beneath kurgans which generally employ stone constructions such as cromlechs and stone cists. The deceased are found buried either in the supine position with legs flexed, or on their sides. Copper objects are a frequent burial accompaniment . . .

More important from our point of view is the elaboration of their burials, with stone constructions which many archaeologists see as a source for the stone-built tombs encountered in the Lower Mikhaylovka and Kemi Oba cultures.

Both Corded Ware and its derivative, Bell Beaker, practiced sexual dimorphism in their burial rites, like what was done in most of the kurgan burials at Nalchik.

This is from page 187 of David Anthony's The Horse The Wheel and Language:

Near Nalchik, in the center of the North Caucasian piedmont, was a cemetery containing 147 graves with contracted skeletons lying on their sides in red ochre-stained pits in groups of two or three under stone cairns. Females lay in a contracted pose on the left side and males on their right.

Ibid, page 291:

The stone walls of the Nalchik grave chamber incorporated carved stone stelae like those of the Mikhailovka I and Kemi-Oba cultures (see Figure 13.110).

[rmstevens2]

Thus far, BY15337 is mostly represented by R1b-V1636. A quick glance at FTDNA Discover's Time Tree tells the V1636 story: Progress 2001, 4994-4802 BC, an Eneolithic steppe sample from Progress, Stavropol Krai, Russian Federation; Samara Valley 35, 4934-4777 BC, a Khvalynsk II sample from the Volga River, Khvalynsk, Samara, Russian Federation; Progress 2004, 4240-4047 BC, another Eneolithic steppe sample from Progress; Kartak 5, 3763-3638 BC, a Cernavoda sample from Kartal, Odessa Oblast, Ukraine; and the Maykop sample Sharakhalsun 6010, 3550-3350 BC, from  Sharakhalsun, Stavropol Krai, Russian Federation.

Then there is Arslantepe 38, 3365-3102 BC, from Arslantepe, Malatya Province, Turkey, which probably represents the advent of steppe pastoralist proto-Anatolian speakers in Anatolia. Kalavan 1, 2623-2461 BC, was recovered in Armenia, and Armenian is an Indo-European language. 

Gjerrild 5, 2341-2061 BC, is the westernmost ancient R1b-V1636 yet found. He belonged to the Single Grave Corded Ware culture. His remains were recovered at the Gjerrild site, Gjerrild, Denmark.

[rmstevens2]

It seems to me pretty obvious that L389 originated east of peninsular Europe, yet there are diehards out there - very few in number - who still claim that "R1b" is western European in origin, by which they really mean M269 and especially L51. 

I know of one such person who claims that "R1b" is of Western Hunter Gatherer origin. Of course, his proof sample is Villabruna 1. 

Baffling.

[rmstevens2]

It seems to me pretty obvious that L389 originated east of peninsular Europe, yet there are diehards out there - very few in number - who still claim that "R1b" is western European in origin, by which they really mean M269 and especially L51. 

I know of one such person who claims that "R1b" is of Western Hunter Gatherer origin. Of course, his proof sample is Villabruna 1. 

Baffling.

Villabruna 1 was L761, but he was ancestral for L389. Of course, Villabruna 1 was recovered in Villabruna in NE Italy. Since Villabruna 1 is the oldest R1b sample of any kind thus far found, some folks interpret that to mean that R1b originated in Central or Western Europe. But if that is what Villabruna 1 means, where is the R1b in peninsular Europe in subsequent ages, i.e., after Villabruna 1, who is dated 12,268-11,851 BC?

The only R1b in peninsular Europe subsequent to Villabruna 1 before the third millennium BC is represented by R1b-PF6323 in the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers at the Iron Gates along the Danube border of Romania and Serbia about 3,000 years after Villabruna 1. In PF6323, only V88 still exists.  The sibling to V88 under PF6323, FT360002, was found in several Mesolithic Hunter-Gatherers at the Iron Gates, but after that it disappears from the ancient record and is apparently extinct. There are currently no known modern men who are derived for FT360002, so V88 is it. And now V88 is rare everywhere in Europe. It is frequent only in Chad in Sub-Saharan Africa, where its bearers apparently migrated in the last African Humid Period, about 12 to 5 kya.

If Villabruna 1 represents the beginning of R1b, then where is R1b in peninsular Europe after Villabruna 1, aside from PF6323, which is derived for L761 but ancestral for L389? Why is it that L389 is only found east of peninsular Europe before the third millennium BC, when the Indo-Europeans appear, along with their language, religion, and culture? 

[rmstevens2]

My own personal opinion is that R1b-M343 was born in either Central Asia or North Asia among Ancient North Eurasians. The ancient DNA evidence will eventually prove that (IMHO). 

L389 was probably born in Central Asia.

[rmstevens2]

I added some notes to my R1b-L754 Descendant Tree that are relevant to this thread. If you see anything that should be corrected, let me know so I can fix it. 

[rmstevens2]

Had to fix a boneheaded error in my L754 descendant tree from the last post above. I meant to call L51 and Z2103 the two offspring of L23, but I referred to them as its siblings, which obviously they are not. They are siblings of each other, but not of L23, which is their "daddy".

Here's the fixed tree. 

[rmstevens2]

I have updated the tree from the post above to reflect relevant new data from the 2024 Lazaridis preprint, "The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans".

[alanarchae]

this is a great thread Rich but would ignore be possble to post the last map at higher resolution. The notes in red are blurry and hard to read (I find red hard to read anyway)

[rmstevens2]

this is a great thread Rich but would ignore be possble to post the last map at higher resolution. The notes in red are blurry and hard to read (I find red hard to read anyway)

Yeah, you have to click on it and find a way to magnify it. I'm not sure how easy that is to do.

[rmstevens2]

Here's that L754 tree with notes, hopefully large enough to read this time and edited to make them a little briefer. You'll still have to click on the tree and magnify it. 

[Piquerobi]

Thanks, they provide a brief and at the same time excellent overview of R1b, its clades, their relationships and where they have been found so far.

[alanarchae]

Here's that L754 tree with notes, hopefully large enough to read this time and edited to make them a little briefer. You'll still have to click on the tree and magnify it. 

Cheers Rich. It certainly shows that L23 had some close and distant cousin fellow travellers on the steppe and moving beyond in the 5th, 4th and 3rd millennia. Also for much deeper time showing the extreme age and diversity of R1b in eastern Europe since the Mesolithic if not even the late upper palaeolithic.