Ashkenazi Jewish Origins Thread

[Rodoorn]

I think the Roman communities along the Rhine might be responsible for a lot of (Eastern) Mediterranean lineages in our lands; if I remember correctly, there will be more results from the (Late) Roman/Merovingian period from the NRW area soon.

Just as think exercise.

I have asked Chat GPT:

Which change in numbers is bigger? On the one hand  the change in numbers when a solitary Y-DNA  branch flows in 1000 AD into a population that this Y-DNA branch still survives today in this population? On the other hand the change that someone is hit  by a thunder and wins the postcode lottery during a lifetime in the Netherlands?

To determine which change in numbers is bigger between the survival of a solitary Y-DNA branch from 1000 AD to today and the probability of being hit by thunder and winning the postcode lottery during a lifetime in the Netherlands, we need to examine the probabilities involved in both scenarios.

### Scenario 1: Y-DNA Branch Survival from 1000 AD

1. **Introduction and Survival of Y-DNA Branch**:
  - A solitary Y-DNA branch enters a population in 1000 AD.
  - Assuming the population size was around 1,000,000 people in 1000 AD.

2. **Modern Population**:
  - Considering the modern Netherlands with approximately 17 million people.

3. **Generations**:
  - From 1000 AD to 2024 AD is approximately 1024 years.
  - Assuming 25 years per generation, this gives us about 41 generations.

4. **Calculating Survival**:
  - Assuming a conservative probability of 0.5 for each generation (each man has a 50% chance of having at least one son who survives), the probability of survival over 41 generations is \(0.5^{41} \approx 4.55 \times 10^{-13}\).
  - Real-world survival rates might be higher due to multiple descendants and interconnected populations.

### Scenario 2: Hit by Thunder and Winning Postcode Lottery

1. **Probability of Being Hit by Thunder**:
  - The annual chance of being struck by lightning in the Netherlands is roughly 1 in 1,000,000.
  - Over an average 80-year lifetime, this is about \(80 \times 1/1,000,000 = 1/12,500\).

2. **Probability of Winning the Postcode Lottery**:
  - The chance of winning the postcode lottery is around 1 in 10,000,000 for major prizes.

3. **Combined Probability**:
  - The combined probability of both events happening in a lifetime is the product of the two probabilities: \( \frac{1}{12,500} \times \frac{1}{10,000,000} = 8 \times 10^{-12} \).

### Comparison:

- **Survival of Y-DNA**:
  - The probability of a Y-DNA line surviving over 41 generations is approximately \(4.55 \times 10^{-13}\).

- **Thunder and Lottery**:
  - The probability of being struck by lightning and winning the postcode lottery is \(8 \times 10^{-12}\).

**Conclusion**:
The change in numbers is bigger in the scenario of someone being hit by thunder and winning the postcode lottery during a lifetime in the Netherlands. The probability of this combined event, while very small, is still larger than the probability of a solitary Y-DNA branch surviving from 1000 AD to the present day. The Y-DNA survival probability is \(4.55 \times 10^{-13}\), which is smaller than the \(8 \times 10^{-12}\) probability of the combined thunder and lottery event.

[Pylsteen]

I'll elaborate later today, there are some interesting insights from a.o. our friend Penninx.

[Rodoorn]

I'll elaborate later today, there are some interesting insights from a.o. our friend Penninx.

There are a few things to consider (I correspond on practically daily basis with Penninx we have made a website together).

- E-V22's rise 8000 ybp> went most probably together with the rise of the (semi) nomadic pastoralists and the semitic language from the 'heartland' in Southern Levant. That's differentiated from how Penninx and I hitherto considered it (see https://e-v22.net);

- mark that in the Erfurt paper and also by people like Khan is stressed that the modern Ashkenazim don't fully equal the Jewish in NW Europe in the middle ages and most probably not fully the Frisian Jews between 1600-1700. Mark that in 1670 they got a cemetery before that no sedentary Jews in Leeuwarden. Khan: 'a lot of the medieval Jewish communities simply went extinct.' And I would add that this could also be the case with some E-V22 lines like E-L1401 which has a clear semitic base.

- the spread in NW Europe - and even more in Friesland!- of E-V22/E-L1401 is complete solitary, white ravens.  I was previous indeed convinced that the Roman empire moved some semitic E-V22 to the Rhineland (Aachen, Köln, Mainz etc) and from there to Friesland, nevertheless when this happened during the middle ages the survival rate unto today is incredible small (in fact non existent).

- we have to consider that seen the autosomal of my father there is a presence beyond noise c.q. the 1% Druze in overall autosomal DNA. The Druze are according to Davidski when he wrote about the Erfurt paper most comparable with the Near East/ Levant Jews.  Davidski: "the spreadsheet also shows that the so called Middle Eastern cluster is modal (that is, it peaks in) the Druze."  Beneath the 1% Druze in total of chromosomes, there is a clear presence in especially some chromosomes (3,4, and more), so  that can't be seen as noise or some kind of Frisian average (no way!).

- this equals about an entre in my tree about 7 generations ago, that's end 17 th century, Wartena close to Leeuwarden in a Frisian skipper family which belonged to a Roman-Catholic minority. Mark that an influx of a solitary Y-DNA 7 generations ago and the survival unto today is already small but not fare fetched.

- last but not least the social context: a Semitic/Jewish line infused in a non-Jewish (in casu Roman Catholic) Frisian family was from both sides taboo. They didn't met, they didn't mix (norm along the Roman-Catholics and the Jews), but in Leeuwarden about 7 generations ago from my father they used the same worship house known as the Ammelander Pijp. That didn't change their norms but when they shared the same room they couldn't ignore each other. This opens the opportunity of: illegitimate child, adoption, foundling etc. Of course this was covered up. Nevertheles this was a real 'social opportunity', that was in that sense quite unique!



So no proof, no definite story, but 'let go of the idea of a Jewish paternal origin':not yet. Because with all the complications this is- also from the numeric, genetic side- imho the most real option. Of course when there is a better scenario be my guest! And yes I'm argumentative, not easy satisfied etc etc  but since the days of Baruch Spinoza this is also a nice tradition isn't it?

[Rodoorn]

Deleted, have to examen it more.

[Pylsteen]

I wanted to comment on your last message, but I see you've deleted it; in any case, the family of Uri halevi (who is the direct paternal ancestor of rabbi Jacobs, and from whom I descend as well) is certainly Ashkenazi. He was asked by the emerging Portugese community in Amsterdam to teach them the beginnings of the jewish rites; imagine, the Portugese were raised for already 4 generations in a catholic environment, they didn't remember much about judaism except for very general things, so they needed someone who knew about the rites. Later rabbi halevi went back to Emden/Friesland.

The rest I will respond on later today! First enjoy the nice pentecost weather.

[Rodoorn]

I wanted to comment on your last message, but I see you've deleted it; in any case, the family of Uri halevi (who is the direct paternal ancestor of rabbi Jacobs, and from whom I descend as well) is certainly Ashkenazi. He was asked by the emerging Portugese community in Amsterdam to teach them the beginnings of the jewish rites; imagine, the Portugese were raised for already 4 generations in a catholic environment, they didn't remember much about judaism except for very general things, so they needed someone who knew about the rites. Later rabbi halevi went back to Emden/Friesland.

The rest I will respond on later today! First enjoy the nice pentecost weather.

I deleted it because I want to examen it more, not only because of a few notes. When he played such a role in Amsterdam, this could also mean that he had to teach the Leeuwarder Jews about Judaism.....to some conversos.

[Pylsteen]

Ok, first a post about specifically the Sephardic migrations out on top of my head... as you know it is close to my heart since my jewish gg-mother was a quarter Portugese-jewish.

So, what may Sephardic migrations have meant for the Ashkenazi populations? First, it is important IMO to distinguish between two groups of Sephardic migrants:

1. The older group, leaving Iberia already in 1492. This group remained religiously jewish, and migrated mainly to Portugal, North Africa, places in Italy, the Ottoman Empire and central Europe; one example may have been the family of my ancestor Nathan Spanier (an Ashkenazi from lower Saxony, but note the surname). In both Poland and Germany these are assumed to have been absorbed by the larger Ashkenazi populations.
   
2. The conversos (new christians). Those that remained in Iberia and converted to catholicism after 1492, during the early 16th century also including those jews that had fled to Portugal. During the 16th century, a diaspora started, caused by IMO both trading opportunities and the rise of the inquisition, first in places such as Antwerp, from the late 1590s Amsterdam and Hamburg, and also in typical places such as Venice, Livorno, Bordeaux, Brazil, and later London communities emerged. They tended to be involved in trade over sea, such as with Africa and the Americas (especially Brazil and the Caribbean), in which they utilized their large network of relatives. Often they had family and friends still in Portugal and in other places of the diaspora. When they had come to Antwerp, Amsterdam and Hamburg, they were initially not accepted as jews, but they were as Portugese catholics. In the Dutch Republic, they were welcome in Amsterdam, Middelburg (temporarily), The Hague and Rotterdam. Smaller communities were present in Naarden and Maarssen. Outside of these places, they were generally not found during the 17th and 18th century: why leave the large cities where your network was? Only singletons may have left. There is no clear evidence for conversos in Leeuwarden during the 17th century; IIRC, there were one or two families in Emden. The conversos tended to be (obsessively) proud of their Iberian heritage. Ashkenazim were seen as foreign people, speaking a different language (Yiddish) and had a lower prestige. In Amsterdam, the Portugese were the landlords, Ashkenazim the tenants. Marriages between both groups were frowned upon and were very rare before the late 18th century; in the cases that they did occur, the groom was often Italian/Venetian rather than Iberian jewish. From the late 18th century onwards, mixed marriages became more common due to the impoverishment of many Sephardic families and emancipation of the Ashkenazim. Besides that, there exist stories during the 17th and 18th century of Portugese men who had fathered children by their Ashkenazi maids. A small stream of conversos also went to Poland.
   

Long story short: when speaking about the Sephardim, the first migration of Sephardim during the 16th century to Ashkenazi lands IMO were largely absorbed by the local Ashkenazi communities; it is not clear to me how large this group was and whether there are still paternal lineages from them left among the current-day Ashkenazim. The conversos of the 17th century however stuck more together in the larger cities and tended to keep a larger social distance from the Ashkenazim; their genetic influence on the Ashkenazim during the 17th and 18th century was very small IMO.

Next post more on the larger context.

[Pylsteen]

My post from earlier in this thread is pretty much how I think about the origins of the Ashkenazim, summarized:

1. Proto-Ashkenazim resulting from a bottleneck of Western Jews, likely between ca. 600-900 AD (probably Carolingian context)
   
2. Spread of post-bottleneck Ashkenazim among France, Germany, England, Central+Eastern Europe where they heavily mixed with mostly Slavic women. In the meantime, Jews from IMO mostly Italy, but other places such as Iberia and the Byzantine empire as well migrated to Germany. This all created several subclusters of Ashkenazim.
   
3. During the entire middle ages periods of expulsion and intermarriage led again to a fairly homogenous Ashkenazi population at the beginning of the modern era, with a cline from Germany in the west to Russia in the east. Some input from Sephardic (and Greek) jews in the early modern period, etc. The entire story of all expansions and expulsions is too extensive to write down here.
   

On the Y-DNA and the ancient samples we have

Probably interesting for your quest is the model Penninx ran to explain the current-day distribution of Y-dna frequencies among Ashkenazim. Especially his model 4 seems in line with what we see. In this model, there are 75 surviving lineages from 400 founder men, arriving during several periods in time. Following this model, I would say there may have been roughly 300 lineages that entered the Ashkenazi population from its beginning until the later middle ages, from both jewish fathers and European men, that have disappeared from the modern-day Ashkenazim. I imagine that several of these lineages are still present among other present-day jewish groups, and perhaps even among non-jewish groups (there's the possibility you are interested in - the only things I am cautious about are the social circumstances, indeed from both sides a conversion or mixed relationship was very much taboo but also the total lack of understanding of your lineage from 3500 BC to the 1600s).

That during the middle ages jews from other communities enriched the early Ashkenazi gene pool is IMO quite good visible from all the Ashkenazi Cohen-lineages below J1-Z18271: several of the Ashkenazi-specific branches have high medieval TMRCA's rather than "Carolingian", although of course the age of its entrance before the TMRCA cannot exactly be determined.

Can the ancient samples tell us something?

Among the Erfurt samples we have the following Y-DNA results:

• Erfurt-ME ("Rhinelandic" IMO): 2x J2a-L556, 1x R1b-Y19847 (both typically Ashkenazi)
  
• Erfurt-EU ("Kna'anic" IMO): 1x J1-CTS4459 (IMO likely downstream J-ZS2616), 1x T-Y105938, 1x R1b-L4, 1x R1b-L584 (IMO possibly downstream R-FGC36759 or R-FGC14602), 1x R1b-Y4364 (IMO possibly downstream R-Y19847), 1x E1b-CTS10298 (can be downstream E1b-Y36800 or E1b-PF6769 (incl. Einstein lineage) but also Sephardic E1b-S16614 (incl. Curiel lineage), largely Ashkenazic with some space for interpretation.
  

Besides the Erfurt samples, we also have the earlier 12th century samples from Chapelfield (England). These English jews must have been descended from the French jews that William the Conqueror brought to England and are IMO likely similar to the Proto-Ashkenazim and Rhinelandic jews. They share the bottleneck with the Erfurt and modern Ashkenazim, they lack the Slavic admixture found in Erfurt-EU samples, as expected.

Y-DNA lineages found among them:

• 1x E1b-PF6769, 1x J1-FT174623 (found in modern-day Sephardim, not in Ashkenazim, such as its larger sister lineages below J1-ZS4297), 1x T-Y125276 (seems present among Ashkenazim these days, but seems more prolific in Sephardim).
  

among the medieval samples we see indeed the lineages as found in modern Ashkenazim, but also (especially in Chapelfield) lineages that are more common in Sephardim today and seem to reflect a larger diversity among medieval Ashkenazi Y-DNA that was lost later on.

[Dewsloth]

Ok, first a post about specifically the Sephardic migrations out on top of my head... as you know it is close to my heart since my jewish gg-mother was a quarter Portugese-jewish.

So, what may Sephardic migrations have meant for the Ashkenazi populations? First, it is important IMO to distinguish between two groups of Sephardic migrants:

1. The older group, leaving Iberia already in 1492. This group remained religiously jewish, and migrated mainly to Portugal, North Africa, places in Italy, the Ottoman Empire and central Europe; one example may have been the family of my ancestor Nathan Spanier (an Ashkenazi from lower Saxony, but note the surname). In both Poland and Germany these are assumed to have been absorbed by the larger Ashkenazi populations.
   
2. The conversos (new christians). Those that remained in Iberia and converted to catholicism after 1492, during the early 16th century also including those jews that had fled to Portugal. During the 16th century, a diaspora started, caused by IMO both trading opportunities and the rise of the inquisition, first in places such as Antwerp, from the late 1590s Amsterdam and Hamburg, and also in typical places such as Venice, Livorno, Bordeaux, Brazil, and later London communities emerged. They tended to be involved in trade over sea, such as with Africa and the Americas (especially Brazil and the Caribbean), in which they utilized their large network of relatives. Often they had family and friends still in Portugal and in other places of the diaspora. When they had come to Antwerp, Amsterdam and Hamburg, they were initially not accepted as jews, but they were as Portugese catholics. In the Dutch Republic, they were welcome in Amsterdam, Middelburg (temporarily), The Hague and Rotterdam. Smaller communities were present in Naarden and Maarssen. Outside of these places, they were generally not found during the 17th and 18th century: why leave the large cities where your network was? Only singletons may have left. There is no clear evidence for conversos in Leeuwarden during the 17th century; IIRC, there were one or two families in Emden. The conversos tended to be (obsessively) proud of their Iberian heritage. Ashkenazim were seen as foreign people, speaking a different language (Yiddish) and had a lower prestige. In Amsterdam, the Portugese were the landlords, Ashkenazim the tenants. Marriages between both groups were frowned upon and were very rare before the late 18th century; in the cases that they did occur, the groom was often Italian/Venetian rather than Iberian jewish. From the late 18th century onwards, mixed marriages became more common due to the impoverishment of many Sephardic families and emancipation of the Ashkenazim. Besides that, there exist stories during the 17th and 18th century of Portugese men who had fathered children by their Ashkenazi maids. A small stream of conversos also went to Poland.
   

Long story short: when speaking about the Sephardim, the first migration of Sephardim during the 16th century to Ashkenazi lands IMO were largely absorbed by the local Ashkenazi communities; it is not clear to me how large this group was and whether there are still paternal lineages from them left among the current-day Ashkenazim. The conversos of the 17th century however stuck more together in the larger cities and tended to keep a larger social distance from the Ashkenazim; their genetic influence on the Ashkenazim during the 17th and 18th century was very small IMO.

Next post more on the larger context.

It's funny that my last fully (autosomally) Rhine Ashkenazi ancestor, who was baptised Catholic at birth, grew up in Germany to be, besides a paper magnate, a "royal Spanish and Portuguese consul who ran a general agency for emigrants to America via Le Havre" -- almost like they still had solid connections with [Converso? Sephardic?] communities there:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alois_Dess...n_Dessauer

[Rodoorn]

@Pijlsteen, thanks for the exposé, nice read!

Nevertheless it doesn't react on my quest and considerations.

As E-V22 has most probably a connection with the occurrence of semi nomadic pastoralism and the spread of proto-Semitic in the  Southern-Levant (and beyond) 6000 BCE. My E-L1401 is branched of 3500 BCE, so at the start of the Bronze Age in the Southern Levant, that most probably is connected to one of the Canaanite groups as described in:

The Genomic History of the Bronze Age Southern Levant

Judaism is from about 2000 BC so it's quite possible that people with E-L1401 were from the early days part of it.

In the case of E-L1401 we see this is a fully but really a fully solitary line in Friesland, in North Dutch, in Dutch in North West Europe even in the whole of Europe

For such solitary lines it is an understatement that it's more likely that it infused in the last centuries than in the middle ages (see for the changes above). The simple fact is that towards Friesland there is since about 1650 no other known semitic spread than that of the Jews! Simple but true. (By the way neither before

Chatgpt

"Scenario: Genetic Drift and Small Population

Initial migrant group: 1 male with the Y-DNA line.
The population remains small and isolated.
Due to genetic drift, after several generations, there's a high chance of losing the Y-DNA line purely by chance if the male descendants do not survive or do not have male offspring."

This was in imo with regard to the Frisian Jews AND with E-L1401 the case.

And true this would be a line that is not restricted to Jewish E-V22 "usual suspects", in fact @Riverman gives a perfect prescription of it:

"What I wonder about is how common actually rare yDNA-subclades among Ashkenazi Jews are, which have a deeper Jewish history, to put it that way. Like going back to the Medieval period and earlier.
Because most Ashkenazi lineages are both widespread and well-tested, due to Medieval and later founder events, as well as Ashkenazi Jews being more willing and able to test than many other populations from around the world. But are there actually proven, historically Jewish lineages which are more rare? Its hard to prove they are Jewish without ancient DNA and when there is no more than 1 Jewish tester.
I tried to find such rare lineages with say less than 3 modern testers which are clearly Jewish, but with no luck so far. All proven Jewish subclades have, if consulting FTDNA and YFull, got more testers and experienced a founder event. That's why I'm asking whether there are any known rare ones at all.

The criteria would be:
- Less than 4, but more than 1 tester with FTDNA and YFull being combined
- A TMRCA pointing to an old branching event from within the Jewish population, not a recent (after 1700) proselyte, NPE or other such scenarios."

E-L1401 could be such a line....there are more such E-V22 beneath E-PH2818 (E-L1401 is branched of), like in the Jewish E project  FTDNA dataset: "95660 Elkayam / Kaim: Sefarad, Spain, Morocco, Israel Morocco E-PH2818".




Hidden in between your own suggestion?

"Besides the Rhineland and Kna'anim groups there was likely more substructure we dont know of yet. In any case, both groups contributed to the modern Ashkenazim in different proportions (a cline is still seen from German jews to Russian jews). Of course there are many complex details due to the many expulsions. Additionally, Sephardim, perhaps Italkim and jews from the Levant/Mesopotamia also came to Central/Eastern Europe."