02-11-2024, 07:25 PM
Sample from Nalchik splits R1b1a2-V1636
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02-12-2024, 06:44 AM
So, apparently what this new Nalchik sample actually does is splits a new branch off of L389 characterized by R1b-BY15337, with V1636 underneath it, as seen in this screenshot Göran Runström posted at the FTDNA R1b Project Facebook group. So now, instead of P297 and V1636 as the two sibling branches under L389, they are P297 and BY15337.
Let us now praise famous men, and our fathers that begat us.
- Wisdom of Sirach 44:1
02-12-2024, 03:51 PM
V1636 is a pretty hefty block of snps, can Pribislav or someone else work their magic and see how many snps Nalchik is derived vs ancestral for?
It would be interesting to see how close or far this fella is from the eventual source of V1636.
02-12-2024, 05:03 PM
(This post was last modified: 02-12-2024, 05:12 PM by old europe.)
(02-11-2024, 03:33 PM)VladMC Wrote: Target: NL122_scaled If your model is correct I think that is a very precious piece of the puzzle of the PIE issue. We alredy know Golubaya Krinitsa was alredy packed with R1a and I2. a R1b sample which is V1636 stricly connected with R1b M269 came from the middle Don which was mostly Dneper Neolithic like. This would make the middle don the perfect region in which PIE could have developed. In fact the middel don samples are in fact ancestral to Yamnaya. I do not know why continue to push the middle Volga agenda. From Allentoft: We demonstrate that this “steppe” ancestry (Steppe_5000BP_4300BP) can be modelled as amixture of ~65% ancestry related to herein reported hunter-gatherer genomes from the Middle DonRiver region (MiddleDon_7500BP) and ~35% ancestry related to hunter-gatherers from Caucasus(Caucasus_13000BP_10000BP)"
02-13-2024, 05:51 AM
from eurogenes:
https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2024/02/t...prise.html We now have a human sample from the Eneolithic site of Nalchik in the North Caucasus, labeled NL122, that packs well over a quarter of this type of ancestry (see here). Below is a quick G25/Vahaduo model to illustrate the point (please note that Turkey_N = early Anatolian farmers). Target: Nalchik_Eneolithic:NL122 Distance: 2.1934% / 0.02193447 60.8 Russia_Steppe_Eneolithic 26.2 Turkey_N 13.0 Georgia_Kotias On the other hand, if, again like Iosif Lazaridis, you subscribe to the idea that the Indo-European language spread into Eastern Europe via the Caucasus in association with this early Anatolian farmer-related admixture, then I've got terrible news for you. That's because NL122 is apparently dated to a whopping 5197-4850 BCE (see here). This dating might be somewhat bloated, possibly due to what's known as the reservoir effect, because the Nalchik archeological site is generally carbon dated to 4840–4820 BCE. However, even with the younger dating, this would still mean that early Anatolian farmer-related ancestry arrived in the North Caucasus, and thus in Eastern Europe, around 4,800 BCE at the latest. That's surprisingly early, and just too early to be relevant to any sort of Indo-European expansion from a necessarily even earlier Proto-Indo-Anatolian homeland somewhere south of the Caucasus. This means that NL122 effectively debunks Iosif Lazaridis' Indo-Anatolian hypothesis. Unless, that is, Iosif can provide evidence for a more convoluted scenario, in which there are at least two early Anatolian farmer-related expansions into Eastern Europe via the Caucasus, and the expansion relevant to the arrival of Indo-European speech came well after 5,000 BCE. I haven't done any detailed analyses of NL122 with formal stats and qpAdm. But my G25/Vahaduo runs suggest that it might be possible to model the ancestry of the Yamnaya people with around 10% admixture from a population similar to NL122. Target: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Distance: 3.4123% / 0.03412328 72.6 Russia_Progress_Eneolithic 18.2 Ukraine_N 9.2 Nalchik_Eneolithic However, I don't subscribe to the idea that the Yamnaya people carry early Anatolian farmer-related admixture that spread into Eastern Europe via the Caucasus. Based on basic logic and a wide range of my own analyses, I believe that they acquired this type of ancestry from early European farmers, probably associated with the Trypillia culture. For instance... Target: Russia_Samara_EBA_Yamnaya Distance: 3.2481% / 0.03248061 80.2 Russia_Progress_Eneolithic 13.6 Ukraine_Neolithic 6.2 Ukraine_VertebaCave_MLTrypillia 0.0 Nalchik_Eneolithic Another way to show this is with a Principal Component Analysis (PCA) that highlights a Yamnaya cline made up of the Yamnaya, Steppe Eneolithic and Ukraine Neolithic samples. As you can see, dear reader, there's no special relationship between the Yamnaya cline and Nalchik_Eneolithic. The Yamnaya samples, which are sitting near the eastern end of the Yamnaya cline, instead seem to show a subtle shift towards the Trypillian farmers. Indeed, I also don't exactly understand the recent infatuation from many academics, especially Iosif Lazaridis and his colleagues, with trying to put the Proto-Indo-Anatolian homeland somewhere south of the Caucasus. Considering all of the available multidisciplinary data, I'd say it still makes perfect sense to put it in the Sredny Stog culture of the North Pontic steppe, in what is now Ukraine. Please note that all of the G25 coordinates used in my models and the PCA are available HERE.
02-13-2024, 09:23 AM
(02-13-2024, 05:51 AM)old europe Wrote: from eurogenes: Its also pretty obvious that the haplogroup came with the steppe ancestry and not vice versa. And for a people so clearly patriarchal as the Indoeuropeans, to the point of being agnatic, this means a lot. I think people shouid, in this as in other cases, concentrate more on the uniparentals and IBD sharing, especially yDNA, but mtDNA and IBD also, because those results are unamibigous, unlike autosomal results can often be. We see a rising percentage of autosomal and uniparental contribution from European Copper Age populations from East to West in the steppe groups. That's a very clear pattern, whereas the distinctively Caucasian admixture goes the opposite way, obviously, and never reaches the evenly distributed impact we would expect if that admixture would have been formative.
02-13-2024, 09:47 AM
The most important fact is the CHG-IRAN arrival in the steppe where a previously EHG lived for a good time and the production of a new completely admixed population there replacing the local EHG - the Southern CHG-IRAN invasion and conquest of Europe with Indo-European language. In the case of the Y-DNA we can observe a succession of different local clades related to the local archaeological cultures no more existent in the region just like in Khvalysnk, Yamnaya, Afanasievo. We just need more samples to understand the CHG-IRAN proportions in the invasion and Conquista.
(02-12-2024, 05:03 PM)old europe Wrote:(02-11-2024, 03:33 PM)VladMC Wrote: Target: NL122_scaled Middle Don HGs aren’t really ancestral to anyone. Yamnaya/Steppe is ~80% Steppe Eneolithic + ~15% Ukraine HG + ~5% EEF. The big question is, what is Steppe Eneolithic. Is it Nalchik+EHG?
02-13-2024, 03:17 PM
Code: Target: NL122_scaled Code: Target: NL122_scaled Code: Target: NL122_scaled Code: Target: NL122_scaled Code: Target: NL122_scaled Samples used Code: ARM_Aknashen_N:I3931__BC_5908,0.099026,0.127957,-0.07995,-0.059432,-0.047393,-0.009203,0.0094,-0.004154,-0.051335,-0.014943,0.006333,0.003297,-0.009514,-0.003441,-0.001764,0.014585,0.027902,0.002787,0.009427,-0.006128,0.013476,0.003833,-0.003944,0.002892,0.004311
I checked the provenance of Chalcolithic specimens from the period 5000-4000 BC. and took as their sources all the samples from the period 8000-5000 BC. without Nalchik and with Nalchik, we got the following picture:
without Nalchik: Target: Nalchik_Eneolithic:NL122 Distance: 3.0639% / 0.03063854 | R5P 49.0 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 37.0 ARM_Aknashen_N 10.6 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN 3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso Target: Ukraine_Eneolithic_CernavodăI_KartalA:KTL001.merge Distance: 3.9577% / 0.03957715 | R5P 39.0 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 21.4 ARM_Aknashen_N 21.2 Baltic_LTU_meso 10.8 BGR_MP_N 7.6 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso Target: UKR_Deriivka_En:ukr104 Distance: 1.7624% / 0.01762434 | R5P 63.6 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 14.2 UKR_Deriivka_N 8.0 IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_Meso 7.8 Hungary_N 6.4 RUS_Karelia_HG_Meso Target: UKR_LN_Sredni_Stog_En_Igren_Dnepr-4200BC Distance: 3.6107% / 0.03610693 | R5P 69.0 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 13.4 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 9.6 ARM_Masis_Blur_N 4.6 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN 3.4 ARM_Aknashen_N Target: Ukraine_LN_Usatovo_Majaky:MAJ023.merge Distance: 1.9711% / 0.01971095 | R5P 39.0 ARM_Aknashen_N 25.2 BGR_MP_N 15.6 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 14.6 RUS_Vologda_Veretye_Meso 5.6 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso Target: RUS_Vonyuchka_LN:VJ1001 Distance: 5.2306% / 0.05230616 | R5P 57.6 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 24.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso 10.4 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 7.4 ARM_Aknashen_N Target: RUS_Progress_LN: PG2004 Distance: 4.8991% / 0.04899101 | R5P 58.8 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 23.2 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 9.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso 8.4 ARM_Aknashen_N Target: RUS_Progress_LN: PG2001 Distance: 5.0216% / 0.05021556 | R5P 48.2 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 22.6 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 21.2 ARM_Aknashen_N 8.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso Target: RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_LN:I1722 Distance: 7.8864% / 0.07886429 | R5P 41.4 ARM_Aknashen_N 41.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_N 10.6 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 6.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso Target: RUS_Khvalynsk_LN:I11837 Distance: 3.3479% / 0.03347887 | R5P 49.8 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 15.4 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 15.0 RUS_Vologda_Veretye_Meso 13.2 RUS_Karelia_HG_Meso 6.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso the same samples with Nalchik: Target: RUS_Khvalynsk_LN:I11837 Distance: 3.0548% / 0.03054816 | R5P 26.0 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 25.0 RUS_Karelia_HG_Meso 21.6 Nalchik_Eneolithic 17.4 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 10.0 RUS_Vologda_Veretye_Meso Target: RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_LN:I1722 Distance: 7.4968% / 0.07496825 | R5P 34.6 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_N 30.8 ARM_Aknashen_N 27.8 Nalchik_Eneolithic 6.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso Target: RUS_Progress_LN: PG2001 Distance: 4.0104% / 0.04010420 | R5P 54.6 Nalchik_Eneolithic 27.2 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 16.4 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 1.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso Target: RUS_Progress_LN: PG2004 Distance: 4.3994% / 0.04399362 | R5P 35.2 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 34.8 Nalchik_Eneolithic 28.4 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 1.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso Target: RUS_Vonyuchka_LN:VJ1001 Distance: 4.7864% / 0.04786396 | R5P 35.8 Nalchik_Eneolithic 32.0 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 16.0 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 15.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso 0.6 RUS_Karelia_HG_Meso Target: Ukraine_LN_Usatovo_Majaky:MAJ023.merge Distance: 1.6695% / 0.01669485 | R5P 37.2 Nalchik_Eneolithic 22.0 ARM_Aknashen_N 18.8 RUS_Karelia_HG_Meso 11.2 BGR_MP_N 10.8 BGR_Ohoden_N Target: UKR_Deriivka_En:ukr104 Distance: 1.7624% / 0.01762434 | R5P 63.6 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 14.2 UKR_Deriivka_N 8.0 IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_Meso 7.8 Hungary_N 6.4 RUS_Karelia_HG_Meso Target: Ukraine_Eneolithic_CernavodăI_KartalA:KTL001.merge Distance: 3.8699% / 0.03869873 | R5P 37.6 Nalchik_Eneolithic 26.0 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 16.4 BGR_MP_N 12.2 Baltic_LTU_meso 7.8 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso
02-13-2024, 03:54 PM
In general, depending on whether Nalchik is the ancestor of Progress or Progress is the ancestor of Nalchik, the situation changes significantly
02-13-2024, 04:28 PM
(02-13-2024, 01:39 PM)Mithra Wrote:(02-12-2024, 05:03 PM)old europe Wrote:(02-11-2024, 03:33 PM)VladMC Wrote: Target: NL122_scaled (02-13-2024, 03:54 PM)VladMC Wrote: In general, depending on whether Nalchik is the ancestor of Progress or Progress is the ancestor of Nalchik, the situation changes significantly Is that even a question? I think that Progress and Nalchik had both an ancestor from which they branched from, but Progress being closer to this ancestor autosomally, while Nalchik had mixed with additional, more Anatolian farmer shifted Caucasian settlers. The origin of the steppe component with CHG is more likely from the Lower Don and coastal Pontic area, and even older than both, clearly so.
02-13-2024, 05:42 PM
Then this scheme is the main one. Their steppe share is about the same 50-60%. The other components are either completely different or have different proportions.
Target: Nalchik_Eneolithic:NL122 Distance: 3.0639% / 0.03063854 | R5P 49.0 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 37.0 ARM_Aknashen_N 10.6 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN 3.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso Target: RUS_Vonyuchka_LN:VJ1001 Distance: 5.2306% / 0.05230616 | R5P 57.6 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 24.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso 10.4 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 7.4 ARM_Aknashen_N Target: RUS_Progress_LN: PG2004 Distance: 4.8991% / 0.04899101 | R5P 58.8 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 23.2 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 9.6 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso 8.4 ARM_Aknashen_N Target: RUS_Progress_LN: PG2001 Distance: 5.0216% / 0.05021556 | R5P 48.2 Russia_N_Golubaya_Krinitsa_Lower_Don 22.6 TJK_Tutkaul_Meso 21.2 ARM_Aknashen_N 8.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_Meso
02-13-2024, 06:09 PM
Do these models include West Siberia N as a source? If not, I think that'll prove important. You clearly need a high ANE source which we see develop towards Steppe Maykop 1000 years later.
02-13-2024, 06:35 PM
(02-13-2024, 06:09 PM)Chad Wrote: Do these models include West Siberia N as a source? If not, I think that'll prove important. You clearly need a high ANE source which we see develop towards Steppe Maykop 1000 years later. There is no such thing in Nalchik. In Progress, it is presented TJK Tutkaul.meso |
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