R1b-Z2103 and its origin

[rmstevens2]

There are no threads or posts in this subforum yet. That bugs me for some reason, so you know I've got to get things started. R1b-Z2103 is too important and too interesting not to be the subject of discussion here at GenArchivist.

So, let's talk about R1b-Z2103, where it came from and how it got started.

Naturally I'm going to post one of my clunky, handmade descendant trees as a point of reference. This one provides only the very basics. You can use FTDNA Discover to do deep dives on the various branches of Z2103. 

[rmstevens2]

I must beg your indulgence and pardon for posting another of my descendant trees, but there is a good reason for doing so. This is my R1b-L754 Descendant Tree. You can see where Z2103 is under L23 under M269 in the lower right.



The reason for posting that tree is to assist with the discussion of the origin of Z2103. To understand where Z2103 came from, one has to look back to its "father", L23, and to its one brother (so far), L51. In that vein, I am also posting a screenshot of my recent use of FTDNA Discover's "Compare" on Z2103 and L51.

[rmstevens2]

Here is something Lazaridis et al wrote on pages 332-333 of the Supplementary Material of their paper, "The genetic history of the Southern Arc: A bridge between West Asia and Europe". Note that where they write "Z2013" that's a typo. Z2103 is meant.

Given that within the phylogeny of R-M269 (R-PF7562, (R-L51, R-Z2013)) both R-PF7562 and R-Z2013 have their earliest examples in the North Caucasus and steppe to the north, the most likely hypothesis is that the entire R-M269 clade originated there as well, with R-L51 representing a lineage that eventually became highly successful in mainland Europe, R-PF7562 a lineage that did not achieve the prominence of its relatives, and R-Z2013 became highly successful (briefly) as part of the Yamnaya culture and its offshoots . . . 

So, Lazaridis et al conclude that probably the entire R1b-M269 clade originated "in the North Caucasus and steppe to the north".

That makes sense, given that both Z2103 and its brother clade, L51, turn up in cultures thought to be composed of steppe pastoralist Indo-Europeans: Yamnaya (in the case of Z2103), Corded Ware (in the case of L51), and Afanasievo (both). 

Thus far, there is no evidence whatsoever that M269 or L23 and its offspring originated west of the steppe and moved east into it.

[rmstevens2]

There used to be a really nice tree of ancient DNA results at the old R1b-Z2103 Project at FTDNA. I don't see it there anymore. I seem to remember it included a couple of R1b-L23* samples. Anyone know what those were? Maybe they have since been refined. I don't know. FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections doesn't feature any R1b-L23* samples.

I don't remember his name, but there was a Russian R1b-Z2103 guy who used to post a lot of useful stuff, and he was pretty knowledgeable. Anyone out there know who I am talking about?

[rmstevens2]

Okay, well, moving right along, everybody knows that Yamnaya has been overwhelmingly R1b-Z2103, which was a huge shocker for those of us who remember when the Haak et al paper, "Massive migration from the steppe was a source for Indo-European languages in Europe", first appeared in 2015. Almost everybody up until then thought Yamnaya would be R1a-M417, but, obviously, it wasn't. 

However, R1b-Z2103 has also appeared in three Beaker samples:

1.  I2787,  2458–2202 calBC,  Szigetszentmiklós, Felső Ürge-hegyi dűlő, Hungary

2.  I4253,  2571-2208 BC,  Samborzec, Małopolska, Poland

3.  I7044,  2500-2200 BC,  Szigetszentmiklós-Üdülősor, Hungary

[jdean]

There used to be a really nice tree of ancient DNA results at the old R1b-Z2103 Project at FTDNA. I don't see it there anymore. I seem to remember it included a couple of R1b-L23* samples. Anyone know what those were? Maybe they have since been refined. I don't know. FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections doesn't feature any R1b-L23* samples.

I don't remember his name, but there was a Russian R1b-Z2103 guy who used to post a lot of useful stuff, and he was pretty knowledgeable. Anyone out there know who I am talking about?

Got this if's any help

[jdean]

There used to be a really nice tree of ancient DNA results at the old R1b-Z2103 Project at FTDNA. I don't see it there anymore. I seem to remember it included a couple of R1b-L23* samples. Anyone know what those were? Maybe they have since been refined. I don't know. FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections doesn't feature any R1b-L23* samples.

I don't remember his name, but there was a Russian R1b-Z2103 guy who used to post a lot of useful stuff, and he was pretty knowledgeable. Anyone out there know who I am talking about?

Got this if's any help

Just had a look at I0443 and the L23* call can't be relied on, there are no calls at the L2103 level, there's one call at the L23 level but that could be rot plus another at the L51 level which again could be rot. Samples definitely negative for the P310 level though.

[rmstevens2]

There used to be a really nice tree of ancient DNA results at the old R1b-Z2103 Project at FTDNA. I don't see it there anymore. I seem to remember it included a couple of R1b-L23* samples. Anyone know what those were? Maybe they have since been refined. I don't know. FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections doesn't feature any R1b-L23* samples.

I don't remember his name, but there was a Russian R1b-Z2103 guy who used to post a lot of useful stuff, and he was pretty knowledgeable. Anyone out there know who I am talking about?

Got this if's any help

That is the one I remembered, and Sergey Malyshev was the man. Is he still around?

[jdean]

That is the one I remembered, and Sergey Malyshev was the man. Is he still around?

Haven't seen him post anywhere for a while unfortunately, he traded as Smal, always somebody I took notice of when he commented on BAM files.

[jdean]

Please delete

[rmstevens2]

That is the one I remembered, and Sergey Malyshev was the man. Is he still around?

Haven't seen him post anywhere for a while unfortunately, he traded as Smal, always somebody I took notice of when he commented on BAM files.

Thanks for reminding me about the screen name Smal. I remember his input was always worth attending to. Wish he would show up here.

As I recall, there were a few other Z2103 guys who posted regularly at AG and, before that, at the old dna forums (of sacred memory). I was hoping some guys like that would show up and post here.

[jdean]

Thanks for reminding me about the screen name Smal. I remember his input was always worth attending to. Wish he would show up here.

As I recall, there were a few other Z2103 guys who posted regularly at AG and, before that, at the old dna forums (of sacred memory). I was hoping some guys like that would show up and post here.

Early days, fingers crossed contributors like Smal will naturally find their way here over time.