Time Maps main post-glacial European ancestry components

[ChrisR]

I find this Fig. 3: Spatiotemporal kriging analysis of major ancestries. in Population genomics of post-glacial western Eurasia (Allentoft et al 2024) very interesting and a good concept to analyze and show the shifts in post-glacial West Eurasia - maybe the North African coast and Fertile Crescent should be included better IMHO.


First I would like to discuss the selection of time periods and reference samples:
WHG ancestry (Italy_15000BP_9000BP), Neolithic farmer ancestry (Boncuklu_10000BP), steppe migrations around 5,000 cal. bp introduced both EHG (MiddleDon_7500BP) and CHG (Caucasus_13000BP_10000BP)

I had no time to read the whole paper and additional information, so did they specify which samples were used to define the 4 ancestral clusters?

So to maybe reconstruct them in G25 etc. and try a similar analysis. Also interesting to hear opinions if for Central/West Europe other ancestral clusters should be considered?

I my current Alpha (unpublished) Post-Glacial Euro/Alpine reference calculator I have the following 6 references:
Eur-WHG = WHG
Eur-EHG = EHG
Aegean-Anatolia-Levant_EF = Neolithic farmer
Caucasus-Zagros_HG-EF = CHG
Armenia-Mesopotamia_EF (not in Allentoft et al 2024, in between Aegean-Anatolia-Levant_EF and Caucasus-Zagros_HG-EF, unsure if a real post-glacial reference or already admixed)
Siberia-HG (not in Allentoft et al 2024, seems very low in IA West Eurasian samples so maybe not relevant enough?)

   

[alexfritz]

judging by the most recent maps (c. 300 BP) only ANF and steppe left a lasting impression
post-glacially speaking

[ph2ter]

I can make such maps for any reference for the periods: LN, EBA, MBA, IA-Roman, modern

[ph2ter]

Like for example:

[ChrisR]

I can make such maps for any reference for the periods: LN, EBA, MBA, IA-Roman, modern

Thanks ph2ter, indeed I think your maps are better meaning more informative then the ones in the paper figure.
I had in mind to ask you, but would prefer to discuss the best references before going to analysis. I have some questions to you but also anyone else:

1) Can you share what your used ancient references for WHG, EEF, Yamnaya are exactly?
2) What do you think about using EHG and CHG instead of Yamnaya, the later being a less good westward origin reference then Corded Ware or his ancestor/s?
3) What do you think about Armenia-Mesopotamia_EF and Siberia-HG as minor but possible Post-Glacial sources for some movement to Europe?

[ph2ter]

I can make such maps for any reference for the periods: LN, EBA, MBA, IA-Roman, modern

Thanks ph2ter, indeed I think your maps are better meaning more informative then the ones in the paper figure.
I had in mind to ask you, but would prefer to discuss the best references before going to analysis. I have some questions to you but also anyone else:

1) Can you share what your used ancient references for WHG, EEF, Yamnaya are exactly?
2) What do you think about using EHG and CHG instead of Yamnaya, the later being a less good westward origin reference then Corded Ware or his ancestor/s?
3) What do you think about Armenia-Mesopotamia_EF and Siberia-HG as minor but possible Post-Glacial sources for some movement to Europe?

1: In some cases it is maybe only one sample, but usually I took the average of the most characteristic references:

Code:

EEF,0.116187154,0.182560923,0.003249077,-0.099981231,0.050991615,-0.048119308,-0.003850385,-0.007774846,0.040007923,0.082146538,0.008793923,0.011436077,-0.023797077,6.35385E-05,-0.044860692,-0.010321692,0.024121077,-0.000838154,0.011564154,-0.009398769,-0.015597385,0.006078,-0.004531692,-0.004096846,-0.005775538
WHG,0.130612,0.1112005,0.192897,0.20001875,0.14579625,0.056824,0.01562825,0.03432525,0.081912,-0.00350825,-0.01221975,-0.0175345,0.0237115,-0.00158275,0.047638,0.0614885,0.001532,0.0066195,-0.006128,0.054776,0.0923685,0.010696,-0.0403635,-0.1486655,0.01676475
EHG,0.122929,0.032496667,0.129980667,0.209843333,-0.010668667,0.056800333,-0.019036,-0.023921667,-0.002318,-0.086683333,0.017646,-0.018783333,0.033399,-0.038855667,0.018729,0.029258333,-0.014299,0.003040667,-0.003854667,0.012214,-0.007029333,0.015951,0.010558,-0.020886667,-0.009101
CHG,0.084229,0.1045995,-0.0914515,-0.003876,-0.089863,0.019662,0.0210335,-0.0036925,-0.129975,-0.076995,-0.0051965,0.02248,-0.049058,0.002133,0.029044,-0.0241975,0.029141,-0.0064615,-0.0189175,0.037768,0.0343145,-0.0069245,0.003266,-0.020846,-0.0006585
YAMNAYA,0.125837778,0.089253889,0.042907889,0.115455556,-0.027868444,0.044684556,0.004491111,-0.002948667,-0.054857889,-0.072995667,0.001858333,0.000349667,-0.001651778,-0.023609889,0.037262889,0.015734,1.11111E-07,-0.001478,-0.001704,0.012505889,-0.003119667,0.001374,0.011229222,0.018436222,-0.004523667
IRAN,0.045339667,0.065332333,-0.1523565,0.008021167,-0.1233565,0.026913,0.0137875,0.000846167,-0.081639,-0.056797,-0.003545333,-0.0004995,0.0043855,-0.008876833,0.0327765,0.054472333,-0.005346,0.005764333,0.013721833,-0.033578667,0.006883667,-0.029202667,-0.008771333,-0.0370135,0.0206965
SIBERIA,0.0839445,-0.136081,0.0832495,0.15108425,-0.090863,0.02767975,-0.048882,-0.047998,-0.02684375,-0.06496725,0.0302855,-0.00588225,0.0239715,-0.0568725,0.01543825,0.0115355,-0.0144725,0.00272375,0.00399075,0.006128,-0.0354685,0.00995425,0.01996625,0.004097,-0.00805325
AMUR,0.019729333,-0.450895,0.079824,-0.055986667,-0.050060667,-0.045366333,0.013709333,0.010461,0.007294667,0.015004,-0.047092333,0.001698333,0.002329,0.017386667,-0.000724,-0.005303667,-0.005041667,0.000718,0.008966333,0.019967667,-0.00104,-0.026338333,-0.021280667,-0.003253333,-0.019958333
LEVANT,0.0685785,0.17289375,-0.027341,-0.14333225,0.028082,-0.064633,-0.01721475,-0.01407625,0.08094025,0.03603725,0.012504,-0.01618575,0.0353815,0.000688,-0.01347025,0.002917,0.00440025,-0.00456075,-0.006976,0.01572625,-0.00414875,0.005317,-0.002311,-0.00478975,-0.001946
MOROCCO,-0.189857,0.0812424,-0.0233816,-0.085918,0.026897,-0.0562244,-0.0688578,0.0189222,0.1556838,0.0023324,0.0228318,-0.0328806,0.0757278,-0.0494342,0.0694074,-0.035799,0.007719,-0.0649408,-0.1416618,0.0393438,-0.037908,-0.1254826,0.0707936,-0.0144358,0.0191596
CHINA,0.01935,-0.442263,0.0126335,-0.0560405,0.043854,0.0105975,0.003995,-0.000692,0.000102,0.0071075,-0.092724,-0.0129635,0.012859,-0.005849,-0.0065825,0.0005965,0.0022815,-0.00152,-0.002577,-0.005878,0.012041,0.01558,0.0156525,-0.000181,0.006227
INDOCHINA,-0.0034145,-0.334617,-0.0708985,-0.0040375,0.1024805,0.0292835,-0.00893,0.000577,0.015237,-0.006652,0.043601,0.007568,-0.0066895,-0.011216,-0.0050895,0.004243,0.005802,0.0020905,-0.0079815,0.0005,0.0043675,0.0072335,-0.002773,-0.0092785,0.0054485
ASIAN-PACIFIC,0.009675,-0.4087505,-0.0511,-0.0363375,0.1120205,0.040997,-0.00329,-0.00773,-0.009408,-0.0088385,0.0369435,0.002623,-0.0068385,0.0028905,0.007736,0.0082205,0.0024775,0.004434,0.0016345,-0.0116305,0.003743,-0.013911,0.0036975,-0.0134355,-0.0332905
INDIA,0.034147,-0.081242,-0.179887,0.122741,-0.096941,0.068886,0.00094,0.006923,0.035383,0.020228,-0.005034,0.004946,-0.006838,0.007019,0.002172,0.004375,0.007041,0.007348,-0.001383,0.00025,0.004367,-0.008779,-0.000863,-0.001566,-0.007065
SOUTHEAST-ASIA,-0.0381305,-0.216308,-0.1384035,0.1313,0.056626,-0.089942,-0.004935,0.004961,0.037837,0.016219,0.0107175,0.000075,-0.001561,0.0012385,-0.000407,-0.002188,0.0021515,0.0001265,-0.004462,0.0194465,0.0074245,0.0075425,-0.007703,0.0013255,-0.002455
WEST-AFRICA,-0.6038315,0.0573775,0.0139535,0.0272935,-0.00277,0.0027885,0.1236155,-0.0956495,0.0122715,-0.005285,-0.001299,-0.0219555,-0.021184,-0.0037845,0.0023075,0.0005965,0.011278,0.0184965,-0.003331,-0.001876,-0.0028075,0.000618,-0.000801,-0.00241,-0.0034725
EAST-AFRICA,-0.548058,0.051792,0.011125,0.0172805,0.001077,-0.001952,0.143709,-0.1073035,0.0579825,-0.037085,-0.003654,-0.0200075,-0.023563,-0.003303,0.0158795,-0.0101435,0.028489,0.1040115,-0.0267735,-0.0056275,-0.012166,0.0033385,0.001787,-0.004579,-0.0028735
SOUTH-AMERICA,0.050113583,-0.311090528,0.120835611,0.096469333,-0.111858417,-0.019909778,-0.288521306,-0.344466306,-0.010714917,-0.014796444,0.000320361,-0.002056472,-0.001238944,0.02309375,-0.007886694,0.004990528,0.005255028,-0.000355306,0.005474806,0.00577025,-0.001382944,0.004994139,0.000034361,-0.000796556,-0.001284111
CENTRAL-AMERICA,0.04467525,-0.317353,0.1119105,0.09197425,-0.11640625,-0.0169425,-0.2842455,-0.3302745,-0.00869225,-0.014761,-0.00024375,-0.0058075,0,0.02373975,-0.00257875,0.00477325,0.0079535,0.00072825,0.00339375,0.0005315,-0.0020275,0.012087,-0.00221875,-0.000512,-0.00302375
NORTH-AMERICA,0.047426333,-0.307367,0.115273333,0.090655333,-0.104327,-0.015431667,-0.254438333,-0.302141,-0.011658,-0.020228333,0.000541667,-0.00005,0.000099,0.013991667,-0.009862333,0.008486,0.005519333,0.003251667,0.004315333,0.004627667,0.003494,-0.002473,-0.003861667,0.002972,-0.000678667
CANADA,0.052928,-0.3234465,0.1071025,0.080427,-0.1029425,-0.0170125,-0.195294,-0.2371055,-0.005011,-0.016219,-0.004547,0.0020235,0.000223,-0.005161,-0.0077365,-0.003845,0.0009775,0.003674,0.006222,0.0113805,0.0024955,-0.0061825,0.0067785,0.0063865,0.0055085
AUSTRALIA,-0.042115,-0.224432,-0.205154,0.215442,0.145566,-0.322398,-0.007285,0.014538,-0.000818,0.003098,-0.004872,-0.002248,0.004311,-0.001239,-0.008415,-0.000796,0.004694,-0.001774,-0.01169,-0.003377,0.003369,-0.006801,-0.000863,-0.001928,-0.00946
SOUTH-AFRICA,-0.642816,0.05560025,0.0257385,0.037145,-0.00030775,-0.001743,0.2677945,-0.2073375,0.01083975,0.01603675,0.00755125,-0.06676575,-0.02151875,0.0066745,0.02269925,-0.01962325,0.0339325,0.2934425,-0.0953105,0.00572175,-0.0336595,-0.003215,0.00252625,-0.00159675,-0.00296375
AFRICA-PASTORAL,-0.298975667,0.096137,-0.02489,-0.076874,0.003693,-0.040346333,-0.011985667,-0.004846,0.124895667,-0.082917333,-0.007307667,-0.008492667,-0.005351667,-0.002752333,0.023208333,-0.023645,0.018775333,0.001942333,0.004232,-0.005169333,-0.005865,0.001607667,0.000123333,-0.004619,0.001277333
JAPAN,0.00626025,-0.3442645,-0.05251425,0.0092055,0.0400075,0.00906375,0.00458275,-0.0023655,0.02275325,0.01676575,-0.04802625,-0.00543275,0.00680125,-0.00622725,-0.02110475,-0.01664,0.00384625,0.01108525,0.00521625,-0.008598,0.06869125,-0.048379,0.01007575,0.00774175,-0.0988535
TAIWAN,0.006829,-0.379808,-0.035449,-0.02907,0.119715,0.0502,-0.00094,-0.005769,-0.014112,-0.025695,0.03329,-0.001798,-0.016055,0.012799,-0.005157,0.010209,-0.005607,0.007855,0.00352,0.001376,0.024582,-0.003091,0.014666,-0.004579,-0.015567
KOLYMA,0.042115,-0.33614,0.09164,0.044251,-0.080015,-0.022311,-0.047707,-0.049844,-0.007363,-0.021686,0.00747,-0.007044,0.015907,-0.024497,-0.019815,-0.002784,0.00352,0.010388,0.015587,0.010005,0.003244,-0.021887,0.014543,0.008676,0.009819
NewHGBSD,0.144383,0.125736,0.190632,0.207451,0.135740,0.077367,0.026005,0.047214,0.045325,-0.048160,0.001635,-0.035475,0.061590,0.070751,-0.008036,0.015020,-0.001770,0.006019,-0.012572,0.044291,0.041209,-0.004623,-0.023482,-0.100809,0.010388

2:
CHG-EHG combination instead of Yamnaya is not good for Europe, because in Europe all CHG came from Yamnaya/CW (except some additional CHG in southern Italy and Balkan in small amounts). It is only good for the period before the formation of Yamnaya.

3:
Armenia-Mesopotamia_EF is made of Iran, Levant, EEF and CHG.
You need also Kolyma and Amur beside EHG for Saami/Finnic people.

[ChrisR]

3:
Armenia-Mesopotamia_EF is made of Iran, Levant, EEF and CHG.
You need also Kolyma and Amur beside EHG for Saami/Finnic people.

Thank you very much!!! All very useful and informative for me!
I will certainly use 1 and 2.

Regarding 3: 
I find Levant (Israel_Natufian_d, Israel/Jordan_PPNB) with Anatolia (Turkey_TepecikCiftlik/Kumtepe_N) and EEF (Greece_NeaNikomedeia/Peloponnese_N) very close.
Similar part of Iran (GanjDareh_N) with CHG (Kotias.SG:KK1) look close.
So do you mean Armenia-Mesopotamia_EF (Armenia_Aknashen_N, Iraq_PPNA, Iran_HajjiFiruz_N) is an average (mixture) of all those?
Thx for the Saami/Finnic advise - I focus on the Alpine area, so I am inclined to drop irrelevant minor ancestral clusters for this area to simplify things, however it is important to understand all influences in Europe for me. My conclusion is to drop Armenia-Mesopotamia_EF as well as Siberia-HG for an "Alpine-Arc Post-Glacial calc". Instead of EHG I will need to find a good Yamnaya/CW reference as early as possible (LN, C). Some Work to do.

[ph2ter]

Moving gif for WHG from Neolithic to modern times:

[ph2ter]

EEF:

[ph2ter]

Yamnaya:

[Ioas]

EEF:

The eef modern for romania is kinda wrong it show that southern translyiana  has less eef then serbs but  on dorkymon project on Moldovans and romanians they plot a bit more south of them expect Kosovo serbs
From his project https://imgur.com/m2wtfGn

[ph2ter]

The eef modern for romania is kinda wrong it show that southern translyiana  has less eef then serbs but  on dorkymon project on Moldovans and romanians they plot a bit more south of them expect Kosovo serbs
From his project https://imgur.com/m2wtfGn

In Transylvania I have Hungarians.