Q-M242 and Subclades

[rmstevens2]

Thought I should mention, while I am thinking of it and before I forget, that sample DRO001, from the 2021 Papac et al paper, "Dynamic changes in genomic and social structures in third millennium BCE central Europe", was Q-SK1932.

He had 81.5% steppe DNA (Yamnaya_Samara) and was one of only two non-R1 members of Papac et al's Bohemia_CW_Early group (the other was I-L460). He was an early Bohemian Corded Ware guy dated to 2872-2633 calBC.

Interestingly, that's downstream of M346 (Q-M242>MEH2>M346>Y4800>SK1932).

Maybe I should have put DRO001 in the "Famous Q-M242 Persons" thread? 

Aha! I found him in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections with a more refined haplogroup: Q-FT380500 (Q-M242> >MEH2>M346>Y4800>SK1932>Y6846>YP6185>Y147687>FT380500).

In Ancient Connections he's called "Droužkovice 1", dated 2872 - 2633 BC (same date given above).

[kolompar]

Very interesting because those estimates would put the American migration quite presicely around 12000 BC. It also looks like a lot of other Q was part of that source population or somewhere nearby, including the European lines. So was it a separate ANE migration to Europe from R?
R1a's branching is consistent with it being from the same migration and it's also found at the same sites as some Q, maybe even most of R1b would work (L389/P297/M269?), but the Villabruna/IronGates branch is a few thousand years earlier and also has a different distribution.
Was it an earlier, more southern route? A whole different population? Or maybe the datings are a bit off, and Villabruna is also from around 12000 BC so could be just a pioneer from the same migration?
(Also, which one spoke Proto-Indo-European...)

[rmstevens2]

Very interesting because those estimates would put the American migration quite presicely around 12000 BC. It also looks like a lot of other Q was part of that source population or somewhere nearby, including the European lines. So was it a separate ANE migration to Europe from R?
R1a's branching is consistent with it being from the same migration and it's also found at the same sites as some Q, maybe even most of R1b would work (L389/P297/M269?), but the Villabruna/IronGates branch is a few thousand years earlier and also has a different distribution.
Was it an earlier, more southern route? A whole different population? Or maybe the datings are a bit off, and Villabruna is also from around 12000 BC so could be just a pioneer from the same migration?
(Also, which one spoke Proto-Indo-European...)

Villabruna is dated 12,268-11,851 BC, midpoint 12,059 BC, so he is from around 12,000 BC, and he had ANE DNA. 

According to Kale in this post, those Iron Gates HGs were about 20% ANE.

[rmstevens2]

Where are our Q members? We should have some of them contributing to this subforum - taking it over, really. 

Come on, guys! Don't leave it to your old ANE haplogroup R relatives!

[Uintah106]

Very interesting because those estimates would put the American migration quite presicely around 12000 BC. It also looks like a lot of other Q was part of that source population or somewhere nearby, including the European lines. So was it a separate ANE migration to Europe from R?
R1a's branching is consistent with it being from the same migration and it's also found at the same sites as some Q, maybe even most of R1b would work (L389/P297/M269?), but the Villabruna/IronGates branch is a few thousand years earlier and also has a different distribution.
Was it an earlier, more southern route? A whole different population? Or maybe the datings are a bit off, and Villabruna is also from around 12000 BC so could be just a pioneer from the same migration?
(Also, which one spoke Proto-Indo-European...)

Villabruna is dated 12,268-11,851 BC, midpoint 12,059 BC, so he is from around 12,000 BC, and he had ANE DNA. 

According to Kale in this post, those Iron Gates HGs were about 20% ANE.

The oldest sites of Human habitation in the Americas based on carbon dating(Book of Mormon not withstanding) are older than these dates sometimes considerably. Q-M242 exixts in Europe as well.' In Northern Europe, haplogroup Q comprises about 2.5% of males. According to the Swedish Haplogroup Database, 4.1% (27/664, as of Jan 2016) of Swedish males belong to Q-M242. About 2/3 of the samples analyzed subclades in detail belong to Q1a2b-F1161/L527 and about 1/3 are in Q1a2a-L804. By county, they are distributed intensively in the southern region (Götaland,: not to be confused with Gotland), and rarely to the north. If recalculated by county-population weights, the frequency of Q in Sweden reaches 4.7%."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242' This indicates a back migration. Maybe from Beringia?

[Uintah106]

Very interesting because those estimates would put the American migration quite presicely around 12000 BC. It also looks like a lot of other Q was part of that source population or somewhere nearby, including the European lines. So was it a separate ANE migration to Europe from R?
R1a's branching is consistent with it being from the same migration and it's also found at the same sites as some Q, maybe even most of R1b would work (L389/P297/M269?), but the Villabruna/IronGates branch is a few thousand years earlier and also has a different distribution.
Was it an earlier, more southern route? A whole different population? Or maybe the datings are a bit off, and Villabruna is also from around 12000 BC so could be just a pioneer from the same migration?
(Also, which one spoke Proto-Indo-European...)

Villabruna is dated 12,268-11,851 BC, midpoint 12,059 BC, so he is from around 12,000 BC, and he had ANE DNA. 

According to Kale in this post, those Iron Gates HGs were about 20% ANE.

The oldest sites of Human habitation in the Americas based on carbon dating(Book of Mormon not withstanding) are older than these dates sometimes considerably. Q-M242 exixts in Europe as well.' In Northern Europe, haplogroup Q comprises about 2.5% of males. According to the Swedish Haplogroup Database, 4.1% (27/664, as of Jan 2016) of Swedish males belong to Q-M242. About 2/3 of the samples analyzed subclades in detail belong to Q1a2b-F1161/L527 and about 1/3 are in Q1a2a-L804. By county, they are distributed intensively in the southern region (Götaland,: not to be confused with Gotland), and rarely to the north. If recalculated by county-population weights, the frequency of Q in Sweden reaches 4.7%."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242' This indicates a back migration. Maybe from Beringia?

And this ' In 2000 the research group at Oxford University headed by Dr. Agnar Helgason first discovered the haplotype that was much later to become known as Q-L804. In 2000 the strange haplotype was called “branch-A” (i.e. R1b-branch A) and it was found uniquely on Iceland and Scandinavia.[2] Later studies completed the genetic bridge by determining that Q-L804 is related to Q-M242 populations of Native Americans, Turkmen (Q-M3) and Siberian populations of the Selkup and Ket people (Q-L54*xM3).[3] [4]

[rmstevens2]

So, where are our Q guys or guys who have Q in their maternal Y-DNA lines? You need to be posting here.

It's a cool haplogroup, one that I wouldn't mind at all if it was my own (is it okay to say stuff like that?).

[kolompar]

The oldest sites of Human habitation in the Americas based on carbon dating(Book of Mormon not withstanding) are older than these dates sometimes considerably. Q-M242 exixts in Europe as well.' In Northern Europe, haplogroup Q comprises about 2.5% of males. According to the Swedish Haplogroup Database, 4.1% (27/664, as of Jan 2016) of Swedish males belong to Q-M242. About 2/3 of the samples analyzed subclades in detail belong to Q1a2b-F1161/L527 and about 1/3 are in Q1a2a-L804. By county, they are distributed intensively in the southern region (Götaland,: not to be confused with Gotland), and rarely to the north. If recalculated by county-population weights, the frequency of Q in Sweden reaches 4.7%."https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_Q-M242' This indicates a back migration. Maybe from Beringia?

What do you mean by considerably older? I could see the haplogroup estimations being off by a thousand years or two. But as mentioned before, Indigenous Americans descend from just to branches that each have a TMRCA around 11k BC, and together 13k BC but with the EHG Q-L804 between them. It could be a back migration but it doesn't have to be.
And there's also C-BY63635 which again splits from Eurasian lines at 13k BC and has a TMRCA of 11k BC
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...3635/story
C-P39 and other Q lines are later Eurasian migrations.
And these are the mt-haplogroups
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/A2/ - no accurate dating, ancestor TMRCA 19000 ybp with several Eurasian branches
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/B2/ - TMRCA 13700 ybp
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/C1/ - TMRCA 15600 ybp, with 4 American branches and two Eurasian
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/D1/ - TMRCA 17200 ybp 
https://www.yfull.com/mtree/X2a/ - formed >20000 ybp, TMRCA 6400 ybp but ancestor formed 11800 ybp

[parasar]

Thought I should mention, while I am thinking of it and before I forget, that sample DRO001, from the 2021 Papac et al paper, "Dynamic changes in genomic and social structures in third millennium BCE central Europe", was Q-SK1932.

He had 81.5% steppe DNA (Yamnaya_Samara) and was one of only two non-R1 members of Papac et al's Bohemia_CW_Early group (the other was I-L460). He was an early Bohemian Corded Ware guy dated to 2872-2633 calBC.

Interestingly, that's downstream of M346 (Q-M242>MEH2>M346>Y4800>SK1932).

Maybe I should have put DRO001 in the "Famous Q-M242 Persons" thread? 

Aha! I found him in FTDNA Discover's Ancient Connections with a more refined haplogroup: Q-FT380500 (Q-M242> >MEH2>M346>Y4800>SK1932>Y6846>YP6185>Y147687>FT380500).

In Ancient Connections he's called "Droužkovice 1", dated 2872 - 2633 BC (same date given above).

Also:
Saint Petersburg 48 was a man who lived between 2878 - 2636 BCE during the Central Asia Bronze Age and was found in the region now known as Yenisey River bank of Karasuk, Altai Mountains, Russian Federation.
He was associated with the Afanasievo Karasuk cultural group.

Yenisey 47 was a man who lived between 2837 - 2498 BCE during the Early Bronze Age and was found in the region now known as Yenisey River, Altai Mountains, Russian Federation.
He was associated with the Bronze Age Central Asia cultural group.

Saint Petersburg 49 was a man who lived between 2617 - 2472 BCE during the Central Asia Bronze Age and was found in the region now known as Yenisey River bank of Karasuk tributary, Altai Mountains, Russian Federation.
He was associated with the Afanasievo Karasuk cultural group.