H10e does ring a Bell!

[Rodoorn]

I very recently got the results of my mother's mtdna, FTDNA labeled it as H10 thans to the YSEQ mt Clade Finder I could take it a step further H10e, but no further steps beneath it could be made.

My mother comes from one of the absolute oldest inhabitant parts of the Netherlands, called  the Hondsrug, a sand ridge in the Northern Netherlands (Drenthe). Going from mother to mother I could stay on the Hondsrug, unfortunately not further than a woman born in 1724 in Vries the headquarter of the old "Saxon dingspil" Noordenveld.

And with a look at the wiki page my first hunch was: case closed. Because autosomal she is very close to Danish IA, and H10e has a clear Viking touch (wiki):



But then with a look at her matches at FTDNA I guess it isn't so case close as it looked like for me, this is the main picture:


The nearest are not in the northeast (Scandinavia) but clearly in the northwest.

Let's zoom in:


Red is 100% bull's eye, orange 1 step, yellow 2 steps, green 3 steps away. And then we get a picture, the red ones are: one closely in the North of the Netherlands, one in the Rhineland, but even three on the Isles: Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Saxons? Doesn't seem like  The area around the Anglo-Saxon heartland is blanc...

But wiki offers another- in depth clue-: the Bell Beakers!

"Haplogroup H10e has been found at a neolithic site, namely the Bom Santo cave near Lisbon, Portugal. This is the oldest sample of H10 which has ever been found and it has been dated to 3735 BCE (+- 45 years). Out of 14 individuals analyzed there was only a single sample belonging to haplogroup H, namely a migrant male belonging to haplogroup H10e.[2]

In 2008 mitochondrial DNA was extracted from a gravesite in Eulau (2,600 BCE) which has been associated with the Corded Ware Culture. Haplogroup H10e was found in one individual out of nine tested.[5]" 

The last one brought me to a real crime scene investigation by one of my favorite archeologist Harald Meller. He and a team around him figured out that a massacre in Eulau (Elbe-Saale) at a CW village was probably committed by the nearby Schönfelder people. It was likely that CW man had kidnapped woman from the Schönfelder culture. These man and woman became couples. But the Schönfelder people took revenge and murdered the women and their children (13!).

See this magnificent story:


And guess what one of the Schönfelder woman presumably captured by the CW man had: H10e.

And the fascinating thing is that the Schönfelder culture seems to be influenced by very early Bell Beakers from the Iberian penninsula. And the oldest H10e is actual a sample from Bom Santo cave near Lisbon, Portugal. So did BB woman cross such distances....it seems like.

See this archeological work in which the connections are being made between the Schönfelder culture and the BB from the Iberian pensula:
https://www.academia.edu/52396069/Glocke...der_Kultur

Ok but BB hotspots in Central Germany is not Hondsrug, Drenthe, Dutch. But the amazing thing is that the same paper shows that is was exactly the case, the hotspot in central Germany, and the one were my mothers' ancestry lived: the Hondsrug.



This very early BB activities on the Hondsrug can be confirmed by other archeologist like by prof Harry Fokkens (BB expert in the Netherlands). See: https://www.sidestone.com/openaccess/9789088900846.pdf

So I guess we got in the case of my mother's mtdna (H10a) that is deeply rooted in the BB culture!

Fee free to comment and to add.

[JonikW]

I very recently got the results of my mother's mtdna, FTDNA labeled it as H10 thans to the YSEQ mt Clade Finder I could take it a step further H10e, but no further steps beneath it could be made.

My mother comes from one of the absolute oldest inhabitant parts of the Netherlands, called  the Hondsrug, a sand ridge in the Northern Netherlands (Drenthe). Going from mother to mother I could stay on the Hondsrug, unfortunately not further than a woman born in 1724 in Vries the headquarter of the old "Saxon dingspil" Noordenveld.

And with a look at the wiki page my first hunch was: case closed. Because autosomal she is very close to Danish IA, and H10e has a clear Viking touch (wiki):



But then with a look at her matches at FTDNA I guess it isn't so case close as it looked like for me, this is the main picture:


The nearest are not in the northeast (Scandinavia) but clearly in the northwest.

Let's zoom in:


Red is bull's 100%, yellow 1 step, yellow 2 steps, green 3 steps away. And then we get a picture, the red ones are: one closely in the North of the Netherlands, one in the Rhineland, but even three on the Isles: Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Saxons? Doesn't seem like  The area around the Anglo-Saxon heartland is blanc...

But wiki offers another- in depth clue-: the Bell Beakers!

"Haplogroup H10e has been found at a neolithic site, namely the Bom Santo cave near Lisbon, Portugal. This is the oldest sample of H10 which has ever been found and it has been dated to 3735 BCE (+- 45 years). Out of 14 individuals analyzed there was only a single sample belonging to haplogroup H, namely a migrant male belonging to haplogroup H10e.[2]

In 2008 mitochondrial DNA was extracted from a gravesite in Eulau (2,600 BCE) which has been associated with the Corded Ware Culture. Haplogroup H10e was found in one individual out of nine tested.[5]" 

The last one brought me to a real crime scene investigation by one of my favorite archeologist Harald Meller. He and a team around him figured out that a massacre in Eulau (Elbe-Saale) at a CW village was probably committed by the nearby Schönfelder people. It was likely that CW man had kidnapped woman from the Schönfelder culture. These man and woman became couples. But the Schönfelder people took revenge and murdered women and their children (13!).

See this magnificent story:


And guess what one of the Schönfelder woman presumably captured by the CW man had: H10e.

And the fascinating thing is that the Schönfelder culture seems to be influenced by the Iberian pensula very early Bell Beakers. And the oldest H10e is actual a sample from Bom Santo cave near Lisbon, Portugal. So did BB woman cross such distances....it seems like.

See this archeological work in which the connections are being made between the Schönfelder culture and the BB from the Iberian pensula:
https://www.academia.edu/52396069/Glocke...der_Kultur

Ok but BB hotspots in Central Germany is not Hondsrug, Drenthe, Dutch. But the amazing thing is that the same paper shows that is was exactly the case, the hotspot in central Germany, and the one were my mothers' ancestry lived: the Hondsrug.



This very early BB activities on the Hondsrug can be confirmed by other archeologist like by prof Harry Fokkens (BB expert in the Netherlands). See: https://www.sidestone.com/openaccess/9789088900846.pdf

So I guess we got in the case of my mother's mtdna (H10a) that is deeply rooted in the BB culture!

Fee free to comment and to add.

You've done really well with matches, Rodoorn, and they look more Isles focused than my own Welsh line, which might be surprising. Beakers must be a possibility but given the number of red matches in Britain and roughly your own area, we might also be seeing the Germanic migrations that left some regions in the homelands depopulated.

It's interesting to compare yours with my own V matches. I don't know what the heck is going on with mine, although I've also pondered Beakers as a possibility. Certainly my matches are much more distant than yours. 

Given my heavy representation in Scandinavia, I'd also considered the Normans for my line because of their role in Wales. I reckon I can rule that out now given that your matches are much closer. Yours would surely be Migration Period at the latest given what we know of movements, and so many of them are relatively close in time compared with mine. We've both got a lot to think about.

[Rodoorn]

You've done really well with matches, Rodoorn, and they look more Isles focused than my own Welsh line, which might be surprising. Beakers must be a possibility but given the number of red matches in Britain and roughly your own area, we might also be seeing the Germanic migrations that left some regions in the homelands depopulated.

It's interesting to compare yours with my own V matches. I don't know what the heck is going on with mine, although I've also pondered Beakers as a possibility. Certainly my matches are much more distant than yours. 

Given my heavy representation in Scandinavia, I'd also considered the Normans for my line because of their role in Wales. I reckon I can rule that out now given that your matches are much closer. Yours would surely be Migration Period at the latest given what we know of movements, and so many of them are relatively close in time compared with mine. We've both got a lot to think about.




@JonikW

Well I don't think we have indices that the bottleneck was total depopulated and all went to Friesland and England. In other cases like yours we have also hits around Denmark....

In the case of my mother it is most probably an older layer that survived the Saxon influx. It is known that in the third century the coastal area in North Dutch became depopulated (and later on filled by Anglo-Saxons). On the sandy area's that were  BB hotspots like the Hondsrug in Drenthe and the Veluwe in Gelderland/ Overijssel this was  to a lesser extent the case. For the last one we can also show this on Y-DNA level, R1b S116 (P312) has also connotations with the Bell Beakers. In the Netherlands we see an empty place in Westergo, the area in NW Friesland that was totally depopulated at the end of Roman times, there were obviously no BB orientated haplotypes that came in with the Anglo-Saxons (on the contrary). The area's around the Veluwe (Salian Frankish) were not so much influenced by the Anglo-Saxon stream. Until now we see  R1b S116 on an elevated level there.

The low in the NW (Westergo) the elevation in the middle (Veluwe), from Altena et al The Dutch Y-chromosomal landscape (2019):


What could be interesting is the suggestion in the paper about the Schönfeld culture and the link with the Iberian BB, they suggest a connection with brides (from Iberian BB). May be this is also a missing link in the the spread of the BB towards the North?

[Pylsteen]

Great! We need more dutch mt samples. My own is from the 17th century peat areas in the Groene Hart, but I also have a full German match, perhaps medieval. Eventually it seems to be LBK > Funnel Beaker > CWC etc. Have you looked in the Logan mt database yet?

[JonikW]

You've done really well with matches, Rodoorn, and they look more Isles focused than my own Welsh line, which might be surprising. Beakers must be a possibility but given the number of red matches in Britain and roughly your own area, we might also be seeing the Germanic migrations that left some regions in the homelands depopulated.

It's interesting to compare yours with my own V matches. I don't know what the heck is going on with mine, although I've also pondered Beakers as a possibility. Certainly my matches are much more distant than yours. 

Given my heavy representation in Scandinavia, I'd also considered the Normans for my line because of their role in Wales. I reckon I can rule that out now given that your matches are much closer. Yours would surely be Migration Period at the latest given what we know of movements, and so many of them are relatively close in time compared with mine. We've both got a lot to think about.




@JonikW

Well I don't think we have indices that the bottleneck was total depopulated and all went to Friesland and England. In other cases like yours we have also hits around Denmark....

In the case of my mother it is most probably an older layer that survived the Saxon influx. It is known that in the third century the coastal area in North Dutch became depopulated (and later on filled by Anglo-Saxons). On the sandy area's that were  BB hotspots like the Hondsrug in Drenthe and the Veluwe in Gelderland/ Overijssel this was  to a lesser extent the case. For the last one we can also show this on Y-DNA level, R1b S116 (P312) has also connotations with the Bell Beakers. In the Netherlands we see an empty place in Westergo, the area in NW Friesland that was totally depopulated at the end of Roman times, there were obviously no BB orientated haplotypes that came in with the Anglo-Saxons (on the contrary). The area's around the Veluwe (Salian Frankish) were not so much influenced by the Anglo-Saxon stream. Until now we see  R1b S116 on an elevated level there.

The low in the NW (Westergo) the elevation in the middle (Veluwe), from Altena et al The Dutch Y-chromosomal landscape (2019):


What could be interesting is the suggestion in the paper about the Schönfeld culture and the link with the Iberian BB, they suggest a connection with brides (from Iberian BB). May be this is also a missing link in the the spread of the BB towards the North?

I like your ideas. It's also great just to have the opportunity to look at your matches map because I think I've only seen these for two other fellow Europeans whose ancestry I've known.

I suppose one problem we all have in general when trying to draw conclusions from our maps is that mtDNA dispersals will be very different from those we see with Y DNA. That's obviously because in patrilocal societies men often stayed on the ancestral land throughout many generations but the women were always married out. 

You know my love of old literature, and the “Laments” in Kalevala 22 must reflect the experience of so many of our female ancestors when the time came for them to leave their birthplace for their new husband's land, often with no say at all in the matter. This passage from that section is from Keith Bosley’s Oxford translation, which I particularly admire:

“ 'Go along, sold maid 
with him now, bought hen! 
Now your hour is close 
right at hand your time to leave 
for your leader is by you 
your dear taker at the doors 
and the stallion champs the bit 
and the sledge awaits a maid. 
Since you were keen on money 
quick to give your hand 
eager to become betrothed 
to try on the ring keenly 
now get in the sledge 
eagerly in the bright sleigh 
quickly get away 
and like a good girl be off!
Young maid, you scarcely 
glanced to either side 
or puzzled your head if you'd 
done a deal you regretted 
to weep over for ever
to whimper over for years 
when you left your father's home 
shifted from your birthplaces 
from your kindly mother, from 
the farmyards of your parent”

All of this must make our task formidably difficult when you consider the repercussions of that marrying out – into neighbouring and sometimes distant communities – over, say, 2,000 years. We'll lose any sense of geographical focal points that we can get with Y DNA, until (if we're lucky and I'm not) more recent generations. At the same time, I realise we still might be able to say that a haplogroup was once carried predominantly by Neolithic farmer women or Beakers.

Another issue is the far more random, less constant, mutation rates for mtDNA compared with Y. So I wonder if it's possible that your red matches are actually as far away in time as my yellow or green ones. Somehow in my case I might be seeing a gradual dispersal of women from the continent into Scandinavia (but it also might be the other way round) while your Isles dispersal is one of the things that looks noteworthy for you. 

I've been stumped with my case, and I don't even have a working theory, unlike your own interesting one. I'd like to see more maps for Dutch testers and others in our corner of Europe.

[Rodoorn]

You've done really well with matches, Rodoorn, and they look more Isles focused than my own Welsh line, which might be surprising. Beakers must be a possibility but given the number of red matches in Britain and roughly your own area, we might also be seeing the Germanic migrations that left some regions in the homelands depopulated.

It's interesting to compare yours with my own V matches. I don't know what the heck is going on with mine, although I've also pondered Beakers as a possibility. Certainly my matches are much more distant than yours. 

Given my heavy representation in Scandinavia, I'd also considered the Normans for my line because of their role in Wales. I reckon I can rule that out now given that your matches are much closer. Yours would surely be Migration Period at the latest given what we know of movements, and so many of them are relatively close in time compared with mine. We've both got a lot to think about.




@JonikW

Well I don't think we have indices that the bottleneck was total depopulated and all went to Friesland and England. In other cases like yours we have also hits around Denmark....

In the case of my mother it is most probably an older layer that survived the Saxon influx. It is known that in the third century the coastal area in North Dutch became depopulated (and later on filled by Anglo-Saxons). On the sandy area's that were  BB hotspots like the Hondsrug in Drenthe and the Veluwe in Gelderland/ Overijssel this was  to a lesser extent the case. For the last one we can also show this on Y-DNA level, R1b S116 (P312) has also connotations with the Bell Beakers. In the Netherlands we see an empty place in Westergo, the area in NW Friesland that was totally depopulated at the end of Roman times, there were obviously no BB orientated haplotypes that came in with the Anglo-Saxons (on the contrary). The area's around the Veluwe (Salian Frankish) were not so much influenced by the Anglo-Saxon stream. Until now we see  R1b S116 on an elevated level there.

The low in the NW (Westergo) the elevation in the middle (Veluwe), from Altena et al The Dutch Y-chromosomal landscape (2019):


What could be interesting is the suggestion in the paper about the Schönfeld culture and the link with the Iberian BB, they suggest a connection with brides (from Iberian BB). May be this is also a missing link in the the spread of the BB towards the North?

I like your ideas. It's also great just to have the opportunity to look at your matches map because I think I've only seen these for two other fellow Europeans whose ancestry I've known.

I suppose one problem we all have in general when trying to draw conclusions from our maps is that mtDNA dispersals will be very different from those we see with Y DNA. That's obviously because in patrilocal societies men often stayed on the ancestral land throughout many generations but the women were always married out. 

You know my love of old literature, and the “Laments” in Kalevala 22 must reflect the experience of so many of our female ancestors when the time came for them to leave their birthplace for their new husband's land, often with no say at all in the matter. This passage from that section is from Keith Bosley’s Oxford translation, which I particularly admire:

“ 'Go along, sold maid 
with him now, bought hen! 
Now your hour is close 
right at hand your time to leave 
for your leader is by you 
your dear taker at the doors 
and the stallion champs the bit 
and the sledge awaits a maid. 
Since you were keen on money 
quick to give your hand 
eager to become betrothed 
to try on the ring keenly 
now get in the sledge 
eagerly in the bright sleigh 
quickly get away 
and like a good girl be off!
Young maid, you scarcely 
glanced to either side 
or puzzled your head if you'd 
done a deal you regretted 
to weep over for ever
to whimper over for years 
when you left your father's home 
shifted from your birthplaces 
from your kindly mother, from 
the farmyards of your parent”

All of this must make our task formidably difficult when you consider the repercussions of that marrying out – into neighbouring and sometimes distant communities – over, say, 2,000 years. We'll lose any sense of geographical focal points that we can get with Y DNA, until (if we're lucky and I'm not) more recent generations. At the same time, I realise we still might be able to say that a haplogroup was once carried predominantly by Neolithic farmer women or Beakers.

Another issue is the far more random, less constant, mutation rates for mtDNA compared with Y. So I wonder if it's possible that your red matches are actually as far away in time as my yellow or green ones. Somehow in my case I might be seeing a gradual dispersal of women from the continent into Scandinavia (but it also might be the other way round) while your Isles dispersal is one of the things that looks noteworthy for you. 

I've been stumped with my case, and I don't even have a working theory, unlike your own interesting one. I'd like to see more maps for Dutch testers and others in our corner of Europe.

Unfortunately, I cannot draw any conclusions, Jonik. Think I suggest more options or possible links. Perhaps by putting it succinctly, that is partly style (real Dutch) and also because I am not a native speaker it may seem more like conclusions than I even have in mind!

Nevertheless, I like to throw a stone into the pond, often missing but perhaps occasionally hitting, that's my fun on a forum.

That said, I think brides may still be an underexposed element in the BB network. Of which I do not harbor too romantic images, you are undoubtedly more of a romantic than I am, I think it was dealing and whealing so it had a high arranged marriage content and a low level of a lover on a sled

Indeed anything but a Christmas idea Jonik!

Nevertheless, it remains fascinating because in the case of BB we had an Iberian and Dutch model, which are more or less mutually exclusive, but perhaps the BB brides are literally and figuratively connected (shot across the bow).

[Orentil]

Regarding the mating networks, what we know from the great Lech valley study in Germany (Mittnik et al.) is that all (!) of the wives of the farmers of the early bronze age came from outside the valley and that all (!) of the daughters left the valley from a certain age on. No marriages within the valley over several generations. It might be possible to extrapolate this habit back into the Dutch BB age.

[Isidro]

Interesting, this paper was published in July of this year and if I read it right they found Northern European MtDNA in Iberia prior to the BB era.
It will be amazing what the future will bring to unravel the European Bell Beaker landscape between the North and the South.

https://www.mdpi.com/2313-5778/7/3/51
Abstract
The chronological period from the beginning of the Chalcolithic Age to the end of the Bronze Age on the Iberian northern sub-plateau of the Iberic Peninsula involves interesting social and cultural phenomena, such as the appearance of the Bell Beaker and, later, the Cogotas I cultures. This work constructs a genetic characterisation of the maternal lineages of the human population that lived on the northern sub-plateau between 5000 and 3000 years ago through an analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA)

[JonikW]

Regarding the mating networks, what we know from the great Lech valley study in Germany (Mittnik et al.) is that all (!) of the wives of the farmers  of the early bronze age came from outside the valley and that all (!) of the daughters left the valley from a certain age on. No marriages within the valley over several generations. It might be possible to extrapolate this habit back into the Dutch BB age.

This is the point I was making, including with my Kalevala example of a bride leaving her ancestral land for distant parts (I may be a romantic -- OK, I am, as Rodoorn says -- but that doesn't affect the point). The Lech valley won't be unusual and what this means is that modern mtDNA matches maps of the kind Rodoorn and I posted are difficult to draw conclusions from, because the networks expand ever outwards over time and eventually become massive as some pass away and others take their place. 

I suppose I find it a little frustrating because I'm spoilt on the Y DNA front given that I1 is as clear a case as you can get when it comes to Isles testers: you just have to work out which of the Germanic migrations most likely applies in your own case.

[Orentil]

Regarding the mating networks, what we know from the great Lech valley study in Germany (Mittnik et al.) is that all (!) of the wives of the farmers  of the early bronze age came from outside the valley and that all (!) of the daughters left the valley from a certain age on. No marriages within the valley over several generations. It might be possible to extrapolate this habit back into the Dutch BB age.

This is the point I was making, including with my Kalevala example of a bride leaving her ancestral land for distant parts (I may be a romantic -- OK, I am, as Rodoorn says -- but that doesn't affect the point). The Lech valley won't be unusual and what this means is that modern mtDNA matches maps of the kind Rodoorn and I posted are difficult to draw conclusions from, because the networks expand ever outwards over time and eventually become massive as some pass away and others take their place. 

I suppose I find it a little frustrating because I'm spoilt on the Y DNA front given that I1 is as clear a case as you can get when it comes to Isles testers: you just have to work out which of the Germanic migrations most likely applies in your own case.

The same seems to be the case for my haplogroup R1b-U106 after the bronze age, the spread is simple enough even for me to understand (if not an earlier "Belgian" layer of expansion will be found) ;-) I also gave up to trace my mtDNA besides the big picture (but actually it points to Germany, Sweden, Poland, Norway as top 4 countries acc. to myFTDNA so I have a very boring combination for a German).

[Rodoorn]

Regarding the mating networks, what we know from the great Lech valley study in Germany (Mittnik et al.) is that all (!) of the wives of the farmers  of the early bronze age came from outside the valley and that all (!) of the daughters left the valley from a certain age on. No marriages within the valley over several generations. It might be possible to extrapolate this habit back into the Dutch BB age.

 Davidski about these samples:

"- WEHR_1192SkA is very similar to Bell Beakers from the northern Netherlands with whom he shares the R1b-P312 Y-haplogroup, suggesting that he was part of a population that moved into the Lech Valley from potentially as far away as the North Sea coast"

It's kind of odd that my mother comes very near this sample.....the nowadays North Dutch samples along this BB:

[Rodoorn]

Interesting, this paper was published in March of this year and if I read it right they found  Northern European steppe  MtDNA in Iberia prior to the BB era.
It will be amazing what the future will bring to unravel the European Bell Beaker landscape between the North and the South.

https://www.mdpi.com/2313-5778/7/3/51
Abstract
The chronological period from the beginning of the Chalcolithic Age to the end of the Bronze Age on the Iberian northern sub-plateau of the Iberic Peninsula involves interesting social and cultural phenomena, such as the appearance of the Bell Beaker and, later, the Cogotas I cultures. This work constructs a genetic characterisation of the maternal lineages of the human population that lived on the northern sub-plateau between 5000 and 3000 years ago through an analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA)

Thanks, that what was I was looking for!

[Rodoorn]

"In this important new review the author shows that neither trade nor migration can account
for the distribution of Bell Beakers and the associated artefacts and burial practices in Europe.
The materials were generally local and rooted in local know-how. However recent stable isotope
results show small-scale population changes associated with the arrival of Beaker practice. The
distribution of Bell Beakers could thus reflect the movement of marriage partners."

I know it is just a tiny straw yet nevertheless Mtdna H10e could support this.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication..._BC_Europe

[Leeloo]

Nice thread. I am H10e* (done a full sequence test but quite annoyed it didn't branch further yet) and my direct maternal lineage is German.

[Rodoorn]

Nice thread. I am H10e* (done  a full sequence test but quite annoyed it didn't branch further yet) and my direct maternal lineage is German.

Nice thanks! Keep you posted!