Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381, Y3140 > FGC12378, Y3142

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Started a blog to document research/discussions that were on anthrogenica...before it was known that genoplot had archieved the site.

Probably of interest to less than a handful of people, but at least the history of this branch has been saved, and hopefully future members can google and find it.

r-fgc12381.blogspot.com/2023/07/with-announcement-on-7252023-that.html


Going to repost pertinent info here.

Currently known ancient FGC12378 samples. 

R-FGC12378 in Zadar, Croatia in 178 AD
R-FGC47869 in Ibrany, Hungary ~975 AD
R-FGC47869 in Sirmium, Serbia ~1071 AD



My thinking has been that FGC12378> FGC47869> FGC12401 originated near the Rhine, North of the Alps, with the Italian/Hungarian FGC12378> FGC47869> FGC12401> BY5698> BY33575 line branching off this core group and heading east during the Hallstatt or La Tene period e.g. the Boii tribe; with other members of FGC12401> BY5698 and the FGC12401> FGC12384 line eventually moving North into Britain in the Late Iron age or Roman period e.g. Treveri auxiliaries.

Another possibility is during the Iron Age, both of these FGC12401 lines had moved from near the Rhine to the Pannonia region (includes present day Hungary and Northern Serbia)and arrived in Britain during the Roman period.


Then again, the reverse scenario could also be true.  A Gaulish Roman Auxiliary unit in Britain was transferred to Pannonia. 

In the 2nd century AD 20% of all Roman Military personnel were in Britain and Pannonia.  Undoubtedly there were personnel rotations between the 2 areas.  It is known that 2 Pannonian alae (cavalry) and 5 cohorts (infantry) served in Britain, the first arriving in 103 AD. www.jstor.org/stable/20186869

We know of a Celtic man from Durocortorum (Reims, France) was buried in Pannonia.

Cohors Secundae Pannoniorum – The Second Cohort of Pannonians

This was a five-hundred strong infantry unit from the province of Pannonia, the region of the modern Czech Republic. They are mentioned on the only inscribed stone recovered from the Beckfoot fort in Cumbria, where they possibly formed the late-Hadrianic garrison. Another undated stone mentioning the unit was found on Hadrian’s Wall between the forts at Housesteads and Great Chesters.

Roman Era sites in Northern and Southern England with potential links to Pannonian arrivals.
"Oxygen and strontium isotope evidence for mobility in Roman Winchester"
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440309003136

“Cultural and ethnic identity in the Roman military: a study of the Roman cemetery at Brougham in Cumbria (MA dissertation)“
www.academia.edu/5766425/Cultural_and_ethnic_identity_in_the_Roman_military_a_study_of_the_Roman_cemetery_at_Brougham_in_Cumbria_MA_dissertation_
[url=http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=7331037&u=https%3A//r-fgc12381.blogspot.com/2023/07/with-announcement-on-7252023-that.html][/url]
Another reference for Pannonians in Roman Britain.

ERIC BIRLEY
PANNONIANS IN ROMAN BRITAIN
aus: Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik 73 (1988) 151–155

Quote from the above.

Coh. V Pannoniorum seems indicated by a lead seal from Brough-under

Stainmore/Verterae CVP (Cumberland and Westmorland Transactions n.s. XXXVI,

1936, p.118):

romaninscriptionsofbritain.org/inscriptions/2411.144

Brough-under Stainmore is the location of the earliest known patrilineal ancestor of FGC12384...William Adamthwaite married there in 1769.

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Quote from the old anthrogenica thread related to this thread

Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893
If we approach the dating from known ancient dna dates:
From some source (Reich spreadsheet?), 
I have I0805, in Quedenburg, Germany is Z142>Z51, Z55>L562, and is dated to 2302 BC 
and PRU004 is Z142>FGC22963, FGC22969>FGC22940, in Prague, 2314 BC.
Both are 3 SNPs down from Z142 and have similar dates (2302-2314 BC)
If these dates and calls are correct then Z142>Z12222, Z150, Z26720 would also be 3 SNPs down from Z142 and may be similarly dated to around 2308 BC...
What if we went back and used ancient dna and 83 years per SNP from Z142>Z12222, Z150, Z26720 to FGC12401 SNP block?
Using the above ancient dna estimated starting point of 2308 BC
83 years/SNP x 20 SNPs (6+1+13) = 1660 years. 2308 BC - 1660 =
FGC12401 TMRCA 648 BC
FGC12401>FGC47875's TMRCA 565 BC
FGC12401>FGC47875>BY5698 branch TMRCA 482 BC
FGC12401>FGC47875>BY5698>BY33575, BY33576, BY33590 TMRCA 233 BC


If we approach this from present to the past (reverse of the above approach), the average number of SNPs from present day testers to FGC12401 is 32 SNPs. This was derived from:
1. FGC12401>FGC47875 average is 34 SNPs (BY5698 branch avg is 28 SNPs (34 & 22 SNPs for the 2 branches), FGC12384 branch avg is 40 SNPs (42 & 38 SNPs for the 2 branches. Average of 28 & 40 is 34 SNPs)
2. FGC12401>FTD126929 is 30 SNPs
3. Average of 34 & 30 SNPs is 32.
32 SNPs x 83 years per SNP = 2656 years, minus 1950 AD = FGC12401 TMRCA: 706 BC.
So going from known ancient dna to recent results is 648 BC, and going from present day to ancient results is 706 BC for FGC12401. The average of these 2 results is 677 BC.
FGC12401 TMRCA = 677 BC (British, Hungarian & Italian present day samples)
FGC12401>FGC47875 TMRCA = 594 BC (British, Hungarian & Italian present day samples)
FGC12401>FGC47875>BY5698 branch TMRCA = 511 BC (British, Hungarian & Italian present day samples)
FGC12401>FGC47875>BY5698>BY33575, BY33576, BY33590 TMRCA 262 BC (Hungarian & Italian present day samples)

I feel the above dates are probably closer to the truth than the current FTDNA estimates which are ~250-425 years older
Here is FTDNA’s current date for FGC12401.  The image below updates but today it says 1030 BCE or about 350 years older than my estimate of 677 BC.
I took my estimated dates above and applied them to FTDNA's Discover Time Tree for the FGC12401 branch. 

This chart is Britain centric, but note the Italo-Hungarian BY5698>BY33575 branch with a TMRCA in the La Tene period.  The brother BY5698>BY12085 branch ends up in Britain.  Their shared BY5698 TMRCA is late Hallstatt. 

Also FGC12401>FTD16929 has a TMRCA ~150 AD (Roman Era) with present day representatives from England and Switzerland.



As previously noted, there are presently no ancient FGC12401 samples and so far no U152 samples in Britain are older than 400 BC. So this branch could have entered Britain in the Iron Age, Roman Era, and/or the Middle Ages. My best guess is Roman Era arrival.

To narrow down when this branch entered Britain, it would be helpful to get any ancient samples, especially from the 1500 year gap between 250 BC to 1250 AD

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Per post 1 of this thread, a couple Roman units transferred from Britain to Noricum, which borders Pannonia.

The ala I Pannoniorum Tampiana was transferred to Noricum from Britain during Hadrian’s reign at some unspecified date between 122 and 133 and was stationed at Lentia (modern Linz, Austria)...
the cohors I Aelia Brittonum, formed under Hadrian, was sent to Favianis (Mautern). Raised in Britain, this cohort is first attested on the career inscription of Titus Appalius Alfinus Secundus (CIL 9, 5357). He commanded the unit in Noricum, apparently late in the reign of Hadrian.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Exploring the possibility that L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875
in Britain originated in Roman Era Pannonia;

Per the FTDNA database, statically speaking, presently FGC47875 is ~3.5 times more common in Hungary, than England or Italy.


1 out of 1000 Hungarian samples
1 out 3850 English samples
1 out of 3250 Italian samples
1 out of 8650 Scottish samples

This possibility influenced the current avatar choice.

[rmstevens2]

A little off topic, but your Roman soldier brought back memories. Some years back I used to play DBA (De Bellis Antiquitatis) at a local hobby shop and with my sons at home. I had an Imperial Roman army with which I was quite successful, which included some barbarian auxiliary cavalry (that made a lot of difference).

Sorry, but those were good times.

[Titane]

Exploring the possibility that L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875
in Britain originated in Roman Era Pannonia;

Per the FTDNA database, statically speaking, presently FGC47875 is ~3.5 times more common in Hungary, than England or Italy.


1 out of 1000 Hungarian samples
1 out 3850 English samples
1 out of 3250 Italian samples
1 out of 8650 Scottish samples

This possibility influenced the current avatar choice.

I also think my U-152 ancestor was a Roman soldier, but mine is L2-. Still not sure when and where he was exactly in what became France, but the closest yDNA matches are Germany, then further down, Ireland, Scotland and England, but even Ukraine and Sweden! The only other French match came from Brittany.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Links to the old related anthrogenica threads

https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/1...78-et-al/1

https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/1...fgc47869/1

[Mitchell-Atkins]

I miss AG member Shamash…my fellow U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875

Hopefully he eventually finds this place. 

If anybody has contact with him, please reach out to him.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Currently known ancient FGC12378 samples. 

R-FGC12378 in Zadar, Croatia in 178 AD
R-FGC47869 in Ibrany, Hungary ~975 AD
R-FGC47869 in Sirmium, Serbia ~1071 AD 

Here they are on ph2ter's latest plot. 
Sirmium in a no man's land at the top next to the La Tene Celts, Germanics, and Middle Ages Pannonia.
Ibrany, is in Pannonia in the middle 
Zadar is appropriately in w. Roman Balkans at the bottom.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Just wanted to post this link in this thread for reference

Britons abroad : the mobility of Britons and the circulation of British-made objects
in the Roman Empire

https://scholarlypublications.universite...64094/view

Table 3.1 Position of ala (Cavalry regiment) I Britannica
AD 69  Northern Italy Britain (ca AD 70 – 80)
Flavian dynasty  Germania Superior (ca AD 70 (?) – 86),  Pannonia (AD 86 – 105)
Dacian Wars  Pannonia (until AD 105) Dacia (AD 105 – 106)
Early second to Third century  Pannonia Inferior (AD 110 – 252)

Origin of Known personnel:
Britannia 1
Gallia 2
Borderland Germania Superior and Gallia Belgica 4
Pannonia 12
Noricum 1
Thracia 7
Unknown 6

Only two British brooches were reported from two military installations in Pannonia:
Győr, and Szöny, both in Hungary.

Table 3.8 Known origin of soldiers of ala I Brittonum
British tribes / Britannia: Town of Lindum ( modern day Lincoln, Lincolnshire) 1 
Thracian tribes / Thracia 1 Baetica 1 
Pannonian tribes / Pannonia: Town of Sirmium Pannonia Inferior 1 1
NOTE:   Ancient sample R3918 1072 AD Z150>FGC12378>-FGC47869> in Sirmium, Serbia ~1071 AD

Cohors I Belgarum:   likely raised from the British tribal entity the Belgae, in southern Britain
Position of cohors I Belgarum
Flavian dynasty  Germania Superior (until AD 97)
Second & Third century   Dalmatia (AD 97 – ca AD 197)

Table 3.12 Known origin of soldiers of cohors I Belgarum
Gallic tribes / Gaul: Lingauster 1
Illyrian tribes / Dalmatia:  Daesitae 1,  Maezaei 1 Town Iadia / Iader 1
Pannonian tribes / Pannonia:  Pannonia ,  Azinas / Azalus 1
NOTE:  Ancient sample R3747 178 AD Z150>FGC12378 in Iadar/Zadar, Croatia in 178 AD

Kind of crazy 2 of the 3 ancient FGC12378 samples are the same as locations for these units.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Quote from my old anthrogenica thread now at genoplot
https://genoplot.com/discussions/topic/1...gc47869/26

rather than calculating a location in Britain based on earliest known ancestors of samples, I going to use a location that represents a central location for Iron Age arrivals to Britain. There is no right answer here but I'm going to use the ancient intersection Icknield Way & Watling Street (51.886031, -0.520974) in present day Dunstable, Bedfordshire.
The Icknield Way is a pre Roman road, which crosses the middle of England from Norfolk to Wiltshire.
Watling Street is a 2nd century Roman road that runs from coastal Kent to the Welsh border in Wroxter, Shopshire

Here are the updated maps for selected FGC47869 subclades. I tried to use those with a TMRCA date range of 1000 BC to 500 AD.
Midpoint was Hallering, Moselle, Grand Est in north-eastern France. Between Metz, France & Saarbruken, Germany
Average date range was 127 to 215 BC. This part France is 13.9% U152 according to analysis done by Maciamo at Eupedia.
Same area overlaid ~54 BC map

Just looking at my U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401 branch, the center point between the FGC12401>FTD16929 branch and the FGC12401>FGC47975>BY5698 is between Metz, France and Saarbrucken, Germany in the Mosselle River Valley area. 

One possibility is the Moselle La Tene are the source for the spread of FGC47975 into Britain, Italy, and Hungary

Besides the Moselle La Tene group, the Treveri and Mediomatrici tribe were found in this area. 

The Treveri were a Celtic (Gaulish) tribe from the Trier area of modern day western Germany. Gaulish cavalry units were used extensively throughout the Roman Empire because of their skills on horseback and fierceness in battle. wiki

There is evidence some Treveri were in Britain as part of the Roman Auxiliares

The Lancaster Roman Tombstone: Interpretation inscription at bottom of this statute
"To the shades of the dead: Insus, Son of Vodullus, Citizen of Treveri, Cavalryman Curator of the Ala Augusta, troop of Victor." Domitia, his heir, had this set up.  

The first thing we can tell is that Insus was not a Roman citizen: he does not have the tria nomina, or triple name a Roman citizen would have. Citizenship was awarded on retirement from the Roman auxilia, so it seems likely Insus died in service. That his family could afford a quality memorial also suggests he was reasonably wealthy. His inscription records he was Treveri, from Trier in Western Germany. The Treveri had lost their independence after participating in an uprising against Julius Caesar’s Rome in 54/3BC, which the Romans put down, and they became a Roman colony from 16AD.

Insus was a Curator of his regiment: a supply officer equivalent to a quartermaster, a junior non-commissioned officer. This role required some responsibility and literacy. The Latin term Curator is still used in museums, where Curators are like quartermasters of museum collections: they ‘look after’ our objects, just as the Roman Curator ‘looked after’ military supplies, men, and horses.

There is no date on the stone noting when it was put up, but we can estimate this from Insus’ troop, the Ala Augusta ‘Victor’. Of the Ala, flanks or wings of infantry troops of about 500-1000 men, there were several called Augusta in Britain over the centuries. An Ala Augusta was stationed at Lancaster in the first century AD, and was only described as ‘Victor’ for a brief period, which allows us to estimate the date the tombstone was put up to 80AD.

Another inscription of a Roman Treveri cavalryman in Lancaster.
https://blogs.nottingham.ac.uk/argon...y-inscription/
"Insus can be compared with his comrade Apollinaris, also from Trier, whose epitaph, found in the eighteenth century in the excavation of a cellar in Pudding Lane (now Cheapside), Lancaster, closely parallels that of Insus, though no associated iconography is attested (the stone is only known from a manuscript drawing).

Dis Mani|bus | L(ucius) Iul(ius) Apol |linaris | Trever an(norum) | X*X eq(ues) al|ae Au[g(ustae)] |h(ic) [s(itus) e(st)]

‘To the shades. Lucius Iulius Apollinaris, the Treveran, 30 years old, cavalry man of the cavalry regiment Augusta lies buried here.’ (Roman Inscriptions of Britain vol. I 606)"
This one has 3 names so he must have been a Roman Citizen.

Both Insus and Apollinaris presumably joined the ala [Ala was a cavalry unit of the auxiliary troops in the Roman army] on the Continent before it was transferred to Britain. Insus is not a Roman name and its presentation here in non-tria nomina format and with no reference to veteran status may suggest that Insus has been killed whilst still serving. The most straightforward assumption is that Insus has died in Britain and that the headless enemy is a Briton. Given what we know about bilingualism in the north-western provinces, it is likely that someone named Insus, son of Vodullus, from Gaul in c. AD 100 came from a family that was at least partly Celtic-speaking. Trier was capital of Gallia Belgica and we know that the Celtic languages of northern Gaul were closely related to the British Celtic spoken in Britannia. This Treveran citizen, who is proudly presented in a north-western Roman military and Latin guise, would perhaps have found much more in common linguistically and culturally with the beheaded Briton than this portrayal might lead us to believe.

Jul 5, 2023, 12:59 AM

Lancaster is 47 miles from the birthplace of my brother y-dna branch in Brough, Westmorland (TMRCA 1740 AD).
https://lancashiremuseumsstories.wordpre...pretation/

386/387 AD:  Remarkably, the Treveri still exist as a recognisable group after nearly four hundred years of inclusion within the Roman empire. The best-known piece of evidence for Late Gaulish is found in St Jerome's (331-420) commentary on St Paul's letter to the Galatians, written in the year 386/387 (the calculation is somewhat imprecise). In it he says that the language of the Treveri in the Belgica is similar to that of the Galatians. Apart from the Greek language, which is spoken throughout the entire east of the empire, the Galatians have their own language which is almost the same as that of the Treveri. It serves to confirm that, whatever their mixed origins, the Treveri (and by extension all Belgae) spoke Celtic, not Germanic.  https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingLists...reveri.htm

As  FGC12401>FGC47975>BY5698 presently has members from Britain, Italy, and Hungary, I thought it was interesting that "Elements of the Mediomatrici may have settled near Novara, in northwestern Italy, where place-names allude to their presence, such as Mezzomerico"

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Besides the Moselle La Tene group, the Treveri and Mediomatrici tribe were found in this area. 

The Treveri were a Celtic (Gaulish) tribe from the Trier area of modern day western Germany. Gaulish cavalry units were used extensively throughout the Roman Empire because of their skills on horseback and fierceness in battle. wiki

There is evidence some Treveri were in Britain as part of the Roman Auxiliaries

The Lancaster Roman Tombstone: Interpretation inscription at bottom of this statute
"To the shades of the dead: Insus, Son of Vodullus, Citizen of Treveri, Cavalryman Curator of the Ala Augusta, troop of Victor." Domitia, his heir, had this set up.  

The first thing we can tell is that Insus was not a Roman citizen: he does not have the tria nomina, or triple name a Roman citizen would have. Citizenship was awarded on retirement from the Roman auxilia, so it seems likely Insus died in service. That his family could afford a quality memorial also suggests he was reasonably wealthy. His inscription records he was Treveri, from Trier in Western Germany. The Treveri had lost their independence after participating in an uprising against Julius Caesar’s Rome in 54/3BC, which the Romans put down, and they became a Roman colony from 16AD.

Insus was a Curator of his regiment: a supply officer equivalent to a quartermaster, a junior non-commissioned officer. This role required some responsibility and literacy. The Latin term Curator is still used in museums, where Curators are like quartermasters of museum collections: they ‘look after’ our objects, just as the Roman Curator ‘looked after’ military supplies, men, and horses.

There is no date on the stone noting when it was put up, but we can estimate this from Insus’ troop, the Ala Augusta ‘Victor’. Of the Ala, flanks or wings of infantry troops of about 500-1000 men, there were several called Augusta in Britain over the centuries. An Ala Augusta was stationed at Lancaster in the first century AD, and was only described as ‘Victor’ for a brief period, which allows us to estimate the date the tombstone was put up to 80AD.



Insus...presumably joined the ala [Ala was a cavalry unit of the auxiliary troops in the Roman army] on the Continent before it was transferred to Britain. Insus is not a Roman name and its presentation here in non-tria nomina format and with no reference to veteran status may suggest that Insus has been killed whilst still serving. The most straightforward assumption is that Insus has died in Britain and that the headless enemy is a Briton. Given what we know about bilingualism in the north-western provinces, it is likely that someone named Insus, son of Vodullus, from Gaul in c. AD 100 came from a family that was at least partly Celtic-speaking. Trier was capital of Gallia Belgica and we know that the Celtic languages of northern Gaul were closely related to the British Celtic spoken in Britannia. This Treveran citizen, who is proudly presented in a north-western Roman military and Latin guise, would perhaps have found much more in common linguistically and culturally with the beheaded Briton than this portrayal might lead us to believe.

A reconstruction of how Insus may have appeared in life by Graham Summers



Here it is sans severed head

[Mitchell-Atkins]

The Hunsruck-Eifel Culture overlaps the previously mentioned FGC47869 polygon. 




Info about the Hunsrück-Eifel Culture from a AG post

The Hunsrück-Eifel culture lasted from around the end of the 7th century BC until about 250 BC, thus running roughly parallel in the time-lime of western Germany to the period of the Hallstatt culture (Ha D) as well as the early La Tène culture (Lt A and B )...
The earlier HEK evolved from the preceding early Iron Age "Laufeld culture" and remained firmly rooted in Late Bronze Age traditions until the 6th century BC. In the second half of the 6th century BC, the region increasingly came under the influence of the adjacent Hallstatt culture to the south and was, as it were, "Hallstattized". By contrast, the Later HEK is clearly influenced by the early La Tène culture and can be described as "Celtic". The Hunsrück-Eifel culture is considered a relatively uniform culture, developing without significant interruptions over several centuries. The majority of archaeologists who have studied it believe that there was no significant immigration or emigration among its population. The adherents of the Hunsrück-Eifel culture are also associated with the Treveri, a Celtic tribe clearly documented in later writings.
Wiki
Based on the present state of research, one example of the oldest male Furntengraber of the Early La Tene standard has been found in Alsace, two in Champagne, and six in the Hunsrück-Eifel region. In all other areas with Early La Tene Furntengraber - Hesse, Wurttemberg, Burgundy, Switzerland, Austria, and Bohemia - they appear later. The numbers suggest that the Hunsrück and the Eifel were at the centre of this innovation that led to the transition from the Hallstatt to the La Tene Culture in the first half of the 5th Century BC.
Above quote from Chapter 24, page 364 of Eurasia at the Dawn of History: Urbanization and Social Change
"The Treveri can be better identified on the basis of archaeological sources. Coins that directly pass on the name Treveriare, however, unknown. For most of tribes of this ethnos, especially elaborate burial rites are characteristic which require explanations. That is to say the question arises if and how these burial rites are connected to a Treveran identity. In my opinion, there are indications for considerations in this direction. Nothing speaks against searching for the roots of this phenomenon in the preceding Hunsrück-Eifel culture. According to Oliver Nakoinz and others, it, too, represents a clearly definable archaeological culture with elite burials (Nakoinz 2005, p. 202-205). Between the Hunsrück-Eifel culture and the cultural phenomena of the younger La Tène periods in that region a clear continuity is visible (cf. Fichtl 1994, p. 96). According to my theory, the burial rites of the Treveri preserve long-standing ideas and notions from the times of the colonisation of the Hunsrück and the Eifel during the late Hallstatt and early La Tène periods.
https://shs.hal.science/halshs-03262168/document
Revisiting Migrations in Archaeology:: The Aisne-Marne and the Hunsrück-Eifel Cultures
With more than 200 examples corresponding to the beginning of the Early La Tène period, Champagne has the greatest concentration of chariot graves of the entire ‘Celtic’ world (Demoule 1999; Diepeveen-Jansen 2001). However, around 400 BC or shortly afterwards, a sharp demographic decline occurred, which suggests a massive exodus of the local population. The exhaustive tables published by Charpy (2009) leave no doubt about the decline in population: the number of cemeteries that were used during the second half of the fifth century BC is 162 (excluding doubtful cases), compared to only 36 with evidence from the first decades of the fourth century BC. These demographic changes have generally been linked with the so-called ‘Celtic migrations’ described in the Classical sources, and above all with the movement of transalpine populations to the Italic Peninsula (Kaenel 2007; Schönfelder 2010; Tomaschitz 2002). As Evans (2004: 227) summarises: The depopulation of the region can be directly linked to the Galli/Keltoi migrations discussed in the classical histories. The temporal association is clear, similar artefact styles appear in the Italian peninsula at about the same time […], and it is obvious the populations described by the classical accounts came from somewhere. The association between the two events may not be absolute, but the correlation between the events creates a reasonable hypothesis (Figure 3). The displacement of a considerable part of the population of the Champagne to new lands would thus seem certain; rarely in protohistory do we find such a clear correlation between migrations mentioned in the written sources and archaeological data.
In the nearby Belgian Ardennes there seems to have been an almost complete absence of population or at least a signifcant demographic decline for much of La Tène B, and elite burials are certainly absent (Anthoons 2009; Cahen-Delhaye 1998). It was not until the third and early second centuries BC that certain cemeteries were used again, with some occasional chariot tombs such as that at Sberchamps. On occasion, the decline in archaeological data in La Tène B has been postulated as the result of the population emigrating to east Yorkshire, giving rise to the chariot burials of the ‘Arras Culture’ (Anthoons 2007; Halkon 2013).
Moving on to the Hunsrück-Eifel area, the process of hierarchisation and centralisation came to an end during the course of the fourth century BC. Although establishing a precise chronology for the turning point is still difficult, the total number of documented sites belonging to La Tène B2 and La Tène C is certainly much lower than in the immediately preceding stages, as reected in the abandonment of numerous cemeteries and the decline of the large hilltop centres (Fernández-Götz 2014: Chapter 5) (Figure 4). The decline in population is attested not only in the archaeological record, but also by pollen data from the Eifel Maare, which is of major importance for explaining the phenomenon. In fact, for the Middle La Tène period the pollen diagrams testify to an incontestable reduction in the intensity of farming and an increase of arboreal pollen (Dörer et al. 2000)...
Not long ago, in his section on the Hunsrück-Eifel Culture, Collis (2006: 163) stated that: “To suggest that the reduction of burial numbers in La Tène B-C is due to emigration to the south and east as part of a Celtic expansion would need confirmatory evidence such as pollen evidence”. We now have that additional evidence in the form of pollen diagrams, so it is time to recognise that the hypothesis of migrations is by far the most plausible for this region...
as in the case of the Champagne, there was never a complete demographic vacuum in the Hunsrück-Eifel but only a demographic decrease. Recent research in the Ulmener Maar suggests the same thing, that is only part of the population abandoned the region. Thus, while the emigration of some of the inhabitants has to be acknowledged, it is equally true that it was a partial, not a total, exodus. This is consistent with the available information on migrations during the Iron Age, since in most cases known to us (and with a few exceptions, such as that of the Helvetii) only part of the communities left, while the rest remained in their original territories (Kaenel 2007; Kristiansen 1998)
Having set out the arguments that suggest that part of the population of the Hunsrück-Eifel and Champagne regions emigrated, it is now time to look at the reasons for the exodus of some of the inhabitants of the areas being studied. the hypothesis of overpopulation (while it almost certainly contains a grain of truth) must have been only part of more complex processes, and in any case needs not necessarily have applied to all the communities involved in migrations. If we are to believe Anthony (2007: 110): People do not migrate, even in today’s crowded world, simply because there are too many at home. […] But there are other kinds of «push» factors –war, disease, crop failure, climate change, institutionalized raiding for loot, high bride-prices, the laws of primogeniture, religious intolerance, banishment, humiliation, or simple annoyance with the neighbors. The demographic growth that can be observed in the Hunsrück-Eifel and Middle Rhine region from the middle/end of the seventh century BC led to higher population density than in previous periods. However, population density was still low. If the number of inhabitants became a problem, then it must have been in combination with other factors. This is where variables such as climate come into play. Climate could have acted, to a greater or lesser extent, as a ‘push’ factor both in the Hunsrück-Eifel and in the Champagne...
the process of centralisation that gave rise to the development of the Fürstensitze of Hallstatt D and the oppida of La Tène D took place in predominantly warmer periods, while the migrations of the fourth century BC occurred during a colder phase (Figure 5). Yet, in addition to these general trends, there were also brief episodes of climate change that may have had a strong impact on certain populations. For instance, Fischer (2006) has linked the wetter climate of the years 120-114 BC with the historically documented migrations of the Cimbri and Teutones...
In relation to the topic discussed here, it should be pointed out that the Central European climate worsened around 400 BC; this was linked to a reduction of solar activity, and appears to have occurred relatively abruptly (Maise 1998; Sirocko 2009). The correlation of this phenomenon with the movements of the Gallic peoples that sacked Rome in 387 BC is so clear that it cannot be coincidental...
In the case of the Hunsrück-Eifel area, the correlation between cultural and climate change does not appear to have been as direct as in neighbouring Champagne. In fact, the demographic decrease in the Middle Rhine-Moselle region occurred in the course of the fourth century BC, and not at the beginning of that century, suggesting that the worsening climate cannot be used as a monocausal explanation.

I quote the above, as it may the source of the split of in FGC47869 into future British and Italian/Hungarian branches.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Present day make up of Eifel, Germany...as in "Hunsruck-Eifel Culture"

[Mitchell-Atkins]

It appears an ancient Z150, Z12222 sample,  (just above the FGC12378 branch of this thread title)

has turned up in Les_Moidons, Bourgogne_Franche_Compt, France

Sample CGG023693
Necropolis Les Moidons and Parançot, Bourgogne_Franche_Compt,   46.878971 5.842749, 610BCE-450BCE, midpoint 530 BCE. IronAge Hallstatt mtdna haplogroup J1c3e

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...y-material

From the supporting data file:///C:/Users/Owner/Downloads/media-2.pdf

The Jura Culture, Bourgogne Franche Comté
Bruno Chaume

The Tumulus of Moidons/Parançot belong to what Patrice Brun defined as the Culture from the
Jura. These necropolises were set up on the French Jura Plateau; They form a cultural group,
homogeneous all along the First Iron Age (Hallstatt) on their artefact production as well as on
their funerary practices. One of the important points would be to check if these populations
were linked genetically. A few burials from Early and Late First Iron Age should put some light
on the genetic traits of these populations. The hypothesis of sedentary clan families present
since the Bronze Age is suggested by archaeologists to explain the high number of tumulus
within a small space. It will be very informative to study kinship within a group of tumulus
sharing the same territory...

Necropolis Les Moidons and Parançot
Coordinates: 46.86 5.85 and 46.87 5.83

The necropolis of Les Moidons (groups of Les Moidons and Parançot) are located in the French
part of the Jura. Around 90 tumuli with 234 graves identified, the Moidons group is one of the
most important necropolis of the eastern part of France. In the object association matrix of all
the tombs, 4 groups were identified for a period extending from the Neolithic to the Second
Iron Age (La Tène). The majority of the graves belongs to the 1st Iron Age (800-450 BC).

This site (black star) is to the south of the formerly mentioned Z150>FGC12378> FGC47869 polygon.


This area would be roughly on the route the Celts took from Gaul to Northern Italy.

According to Livy (v. 34), the Bituriges, Arverni, Senones, Aedui[Haedui on map above], Ambarri, Carnutes, and Aulerci led by Bellovesus, arrived in northern Italy during the reign of Tarquinius Priscus (7th-6th century BC) and occupied the area between Milan and Cremona.

above tribes highlighted in yellow on map

[Mitchell-Atkins]

More info on the Treveri and Mediomatrici tribes.

Treveri and Mediomatrici: Spatial delimitation, group
identities and the question of definition as regional
archaeological cultures
Ralf Gleser

https://shs.hal.science/halshs-03262168/document


And a related
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Appl..._279961155