K13 Averages from Romania and Analyses

[Riverman]

K13 Averages from Romania and Analyses

On Eupedia it was brought to my attention that Dorkymon has created a well-structured site which provides us with K13 data from various regions and ethnic groups from Romania. 
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/or...ost-674494
Here is the direct link to the site and data:
https://geneticaromd.github.io/adn/database.html

Since I'm more used to G25 tools, I converted a larger portion of these K13 results into G25. They seem to plot OK on the PCA, after conversion, but they aren't fully compatible with regular G25 samples. Which means the converted results behave normal to each other, as far as I can tell, but they regularly prefer other converted results before regular G25 coordinates for some unknown reasons.

Here are some of the results I got when playing around with this data.

At first I made a custom PCA for the Romanian samples to see how they behave to their basic source groups - I added some non-Romanian samples to put things into a wider context:




One can see the dense cluster for the Romanian core and those which deviate in a Southern (Moldova Gagauzia and Tighina), Slavic (Moldova Balti), Hungarian (Maramures) and German (Satu Mare) direction.

In the centre of the Romanian core is clearly Oltenia in my opinion.

The next thing I did was using Oltenia as the core group and all the main minorities and neighbours as additional references for an admixture run - of course they are not all ideal, but like I wrote before, regular G25 don't get picked up as much. With regular G25 one could use German Erlangen, Hungarian, Russian Kursk and Greek Laconia as proxies, but because of the different original formats, that doesn't work as well.

This was the result of the admixture run sorted by Oltenia-like percentages:



For some models it causes troubles to differentiate between Slavic, Hungarian and German, because Hungarian is to large degree a mix of German and Slavic, and even the Southern admixture is similar to Romanians.
Anyway, I think its a nice approach and the Oltenia sample is really a good representative for core Romanian, with many other regions showing varying degrees of admixture from the neighbours and minorities.

Next the samples on the Europe1 G25 standard PCA. Bucharest is between the two Oltenia samples, which kind of proves the central position of the Oltenians.


And here is my final interpretation with a fairly large number of the samples and how they behave to each other - relative to the Romanian core vs. neighbours and ethnic minorities:



If someone knows a similar compilation of regional and ethnic data samples for other countries and people, it would be great to know. Even if the G25 conversions from K13 are surely not high quality and fully comparable with regular G25 data, their relative behaviour and positioning on the PCA makes sense. I did test it with other samples I have, both regular G25 coordinates and conversions from K36, both are surely better, and the basic positioning is pretty much the same. Only minor shifts up and down, to put it that way.

[Tomenable]

Your images don't work anymore.

[vlrs]

K13 Averages from Romania and Analyses

Can you please re-add the pictures because they are not visible anymore?

[Riverman]

Here are the images I saved, unfortunately they were removed by the Imagehost.

PCA of the samples:




PCA with marked trends:



The trends are pretty straightforward and prove in my opinion that a more Southern Romanian core expanded into territories which were occupied or later settled by Slavs, Hungarians and Germans in particular.
The only Southern shifted outlier in this sample group are the Gagauz people (only a bit) and the ethnic minorities of Jews and Roma (significantly). This proves the ethnic affiliatio nof the Gagauz people, which speak an Anatolian Turkish dialect.

[FR9CZ6]

Here are the images I saved, unfortunately they were removed by the Imagehost.

PCA of the samples:




PCA with marked trends:



The trends are pretty straightforward and prove in my opinion that a more Southern Romanian core expanded into territories which were occupied or later settled by Slavs, Hungarians and Germans in particular.
The only Southern shifted outlier in this sample group are the Gagauz people (only a bit) and the ethnic minorities of Jews and Roma (significantly). This proves the ethnic affiliatio nof the Gagauz people, which speak an Anatolian Turkish dialect.

Good job. Could you please share the G25 cords you've used?

[Riverman]

Good job. Could you please share the G25 cords you've used?

This should be most of the used values:

Code:

Romania_Ardeal_Saxon(7),0.137118,0.146269,0.056303,0.029196,0.040472,0.011963,0.002615,0.006810,0.006481,0.003761,0.002868,0.000643,-0.001836,-0.002706,0.004162,0.000381,-0.002710,-0.000839,-0.001474,0.000027,0.000141,0.001182,0.000365,0.000545,-0.000887
Romania_Ardeal_Hungarian,0.132847,0.127583,0.050179,0.026377,0.029716,0.009081,0.003946,0.007851,0.001956,-0.003137,0.006299,-0.001600,0.003150,0.000322,-0.001365,-0.000985,-0.000537,-0.001530,-0.001595,0.000227,-0.001832,0.000067,0.001354,-0.000564,-0.000620
Romania_Maramures_SatuMare(7),0.134619,0.139583,0.046064,0.020394,0.032292,0.008408,0.003100,0.007030,0.000729,-0.002847,0.007371,-0.001722,0.003567,0.000880,-0.001478,-0.000730,-0.000429,-0.001794,-0.002086,-0.000040,-0.001954,0.000200,0.001536,-0.000839,-0.000824
Romania_Ardeal_Harghita(2),0.134258,0.141069,0.041824,0.014205,0.025054,0.006946,0.002980,0.005520,-0.003462,-0.003733,0.005572,-0.000723,0.001605,-0.000462,-0.000248,-0.000309,-0.000272,-0.001805,-0.002384,-0.000903,-0.002154,-0.000709,0.001464,-0.002138,-0.000710
Romania_Ardeal_Bistrita(15),0.133463,0.136333,0.043081,0.016733,0.029884,0.005678,0.003335,0.008207,0.000906,-0.002810,0.008924,-0.002414,0.005327,0.001941,-0.004107,-0.001610,0.000729,-0.002316,-0.002538,0.000078,-0.002816,-0.000617,0.001942,-0.001749,-0.000680
Romania_Ardeal_Hunedoara(19),0.132331,0.140332,0.038160,0.010823,0.028712,0.004621,0.002202,0.007020,0.001173,-0.000158,0.008050,-0.001760,0.004139,0.001286,-0.003360,-0.001394,0.000611,-0.002316,-0.002725,-0.000214,-0.002560,-0.000861,0.001817,-0.001960,-0.000567
Romania_Ardeal_Brasov(20),0.132130,0.139118,0.037940,0.011217,0.028232,0.006017,0.002216,0.006667,0.001288,-0.000136,0.007122,-0.001562,0.003575,0.000751,-0.002198,-0.000915,0.000025,-0.002039,-0.002465,-0.000182,-0.002124,-0.000507,0.001624,-0.001495,-0.000557
Romania_Maramures(15),0.134721,0.138545,0.043377,0.021349,0.030992,0.008706,0.003831,0.008351,0.000193,-0.004657,0.009176,-0.002432,0.005213,0.002058,-0.003512,-0.001310,0.000600,-0.002286,-0.002607,-0.000123,-0.002849,-0.000225,0.001963,-0.001777,-0.000877
Romania_Banat_Timis(35),0.133019,0.140188,0.038529,0.011246,0.027392,0.005109,0.002982,0.007261,0.000132,-0.001127,0.007369,-0.001525,0.003565,0.000830,-0.002650,-0.001158,0.000399,-0.002178,-0.002601,-0.000368,-0.002476,-0.000852,0.001730,-0.001979,-0.000573
Romania_Ardeal_Cluj(38),0.132872,0.139287,0.040179,0.012979,0.029132,0.004664,0.002510,0.007561,0.001801,-0.000080,0.008064,-0.001774,0.004139,0.001247,-0.003490,-0.001545,0.000643,-0.002308,-0.002672,-0.000110,-0.002584,-0.000901,0.001790,-0.001943,-0.000569
Romania_Ardeal_Sibiu(17),0.132179,0.140726,0.039392,0.013287,0.029009,0.004909,0.002475,0.007085,0.002007,-0.000111,0.007911,-0.001462,0.003546,0.001115,-0.003282,-0.001631,0.000791,-0.002330,-0.002747,-0.000340,-0.002642,-0.000999,0.001784,-0.002132,-0.000559
Romania_Ardeal_Mures(18),0.132342,0.138813,0.038882,0.013532,0.028333,0.003841,0.002527,0.007568,0.002253,-0.000415,0.007593,-0.001945,0.004352,0.000876,-0.002586,-0.000989,0.000037,-0.002081,-0.002485,0.000185,-0.002225,-0.000628,0.001576,-0.001579,-0.000663
Romania_Oltenia_Dolj(28),0.131979,0.142612,0.036305,0.007475,0.027204,0.003485,0.002869,0.007771,0.000546,0.000480,0.007716,-0.001480,0.003696,0.000952,-0.003391,-0.001485,0.000816,-0.002422,-0.002920,-0.000430,-0.002707,-0.001282,0.001837,-0.002449,-0.000499
Romania_Oltenia_Olt(12),0.129923,0.140987,0.034058,0.005701,0.027444,0.003312,0.001842,0.006914,0.001424,0.001726,0.007903,-0.001489,0.003820,0.001185,-0.003778,-0.001634,0.000980,-0.002496,-0.003002,-0.000418,-0.002691,-0.001301,0.001893,-0.002404,-0.000398
Romania_Oltenia_Valcea(21),0.131417,0.141824,0.034787,0.007301,0.026718,0.002672,0.002012,0.006962,0.001185,0.000944,0.008244,-0.001595,0.004037,0.001381,-0.004093,-0.001757,0.001089,-0.002501,-0.002908,-0.000381,-0.002840,-0.001397,0.001902,-0.002404,-0.000454
Romania_Oltenia_Gorj(17),0.131319,0.141890,0.035810,0.007504,0.028767,0.003509,0.001594,0.006631,0.002695,0.002775,0.006796,-0.001061,0.002766,0.000300,-0.002315,-0.001204,0.000332,-0.002239,-0.002848,-0.000320,-0.002164,-0.001040,0.001587,-0.002089,-0.000444
Romania_Muntenia_Prahova(32),0.130256,0.139970,0.032501,0.006795,0.026231,0.002175,0.001498,0.006379,0.001419,0.000936,0.007927,-0.001723,0.004222,0.001213,-0.003510,-0.001338,0.000693,-0.002360,-0.002816,-0.000215,-0.002563,-0.001152,0.001787,-0.002133,-0.000476
Romania_Muntenia_Dambovita(24),0.130106,0.140527,0.032711,0.005450,0.025244,0.002475,0.001916,0.006441,0.001083,0.000769,0.007098,-0.001570,0.003809,0.000680,-0.002580,-0.000947,0.000223,-0.002145,-0.002615,-0.000185,-0.002252,-0.001001,0.001629,-0.001854,-0.000473
Romania_Dobrogea_Constanta(35),0.130757,0.139784,0.033572,0.005481,0.025527,0.003062,0.002015,0.007146,0.001278,0.001184,0.007702,-0.001682,0.004150,0.001048,-0.003612,-0.001409,0.000780,-0.002415,-0.002905,-0.000258,-0.002632,-0.001311,0.001827,-0.002359,-0.000419
Romania_Muntenia_Bucuresti(131),0.130856,0.140133,0.034013,0.007279,0.025964,0.003693,0.001979,0.006676,0.000690,-0.000049,0.007892,-0.001787,0.004285,0.001220,-0.003394,-0.001255,0.000662,-0.002344,-0.002806,-0.000278,-0.002609,-0.001069,0.001829,-0.002168,-0.000509
Romania_Muntenia_Teleorman(25),0.130382,0.141522,0.029358,0.002074,0.024374,0.001245,0.001819,0.007054,0.001029,0.001377,0.007455,-0.001951,0.004658,0.000873,-0.002943,-0.000778,0.000181,-0.002243,-0.002774,0.000008,-0.002278,-0.001065,0.001671,-0.001953,-0.000492
Romania_Muntenia_Giurgiu(17),0.130659,0.138975,0.030109,0.003504,0.025899,0.001820,0.001596,0.006295,-0.000131,0.002423,0.006942,-0.000804,0.002471,0.000490,-0.003225,-0.001534,0.001134,-0.002557,-0.003245,-0.000919,-0.002742,-0.001702,0.001862,-0.003079,-0.000263
Romania_Moldova_Botosani(36),0.135409,0.135267,0.051016,0.028387,0.031746,0.010382,0.005111,0.009373,-0.000595,-0.007949,0.010255,-0.003112,0.006457,0.002924,-0.004532,-0.001721,0.000793,-0.002234,-0.002205,0.000165,-0.003181,0.000012,0.002115,-0.001338,-0.000998
Romania_Moldova_Suceava(40),0.134259,0.133810,0.050455,0.029867,0.031203,0.010404,0.005266,0.009149,0.000336,-0.008113,0.009490,-0.002989,0.006076,0.002428,-0.003510,-0.001345,0.000283,-0.001969,-0.001945,0.000310,-0.002805,0.000273,0.001891,-0.000924,-0.001014
Romania_Moldova_Iasi(53),0.133283,0.136502,0.043937,0.021634,0.029892,0.008148,0.003915,0.008562,0.000333,-0.005675,0.009934,-0.002955,0.006337,0.002633,-0.004460,-0.001554,0.000878,-0.002378,-0.002588,0.000104,-0.003116,-0.000335,0.002091,-0.001809,-0.000887
Romania_Moldova_Vaslui(21),0.132876,0.137678,0.044311,0.017777,0.028682,0.007413,0.003886,0.008420,0.000941,-0.003144,0.007898,-0.002221,0.004749,0.001231,-0.002691,-0.001046,0.000023,-0.001989,-0.002231,0.000159,-0.002365,-0.000304,0.001686,-0.001292,-0.000747
Romania_Moldova_Galati(21),0.132115,0.140765,0.037634,0.010645,0.028178,0.004210,0.001689,0.006702,0.001858,-0.000522,0.008828,-0.002206,0.005104,0.001832,-0.004060,-0.001508,0.000764,-0.002394,-0.002738,0.000009,-0.002703,-0.000865,0.001895,-0.001895,-0.000618
Moldova_Balti(32),0.133281,0.132462,0.048680,0.027777,0.030050,0.010057,0.005414,0.009950,-0.000379,-0.008201,0.010518,-0.003383,0.007085,0.003137,-0.005075,-0.001825,0.001024,-0.002334,-0.002318,0.000243,-0.003376,-0.000164,0.002199,-0.001580,-0.000949
Moldova_Gagauzia(24),0.128035,0.142953,0.024023,-0.001982,0.021534,-0.000740,0.001688,0.006357,-0.000626,0.000447,0.008287,-0.001934,0.004938,0.001460,-0.004193,-0.001250,0.001122,-0.002606,-0.003186,-0.000459,-0.002973,-0.001731,0.001977,-0.002877,-0.000419
Moldova_Chisinau(10),0.131597,0.133653,0.045009,0.025272,0.028975,0.009406,0.003971,0.008799,0.000768,-0.005306,0.009412,-0.002675,0.005713,0.002205,-0.004084,-0.001578,0.000876,-0.002335,-0.002600,0.000036,-0.003091,-0.000453,0.001998,-0.002012,-0.000862
Moldova_Tighina(12),0.129327,0.144620,0.030786,0.002223,0.025031,0.001749,0.001936,0.006974,0.000077,-0.000389,0.008405,-0.002208,0.005264,0.001384,-0.003602,-0.000987,0.000715,-0.002529,-0.003198,-0.000181,-0.002768,-0.001250,0.001919,-0.002654,-0.000629
Romania_Csango/Romanian Catholic(27),0.133014,0.122916,0.052206,0.028749,0.029676,0.009384,0.004412,0.008003,0.000274,-0.004724,0.006287,-0.001529,0.002966,0.000320,-0.001666,-0.001193,-0.000133,-0.001669,-0.001792,-0.000044,-0.002187,-0.000158,0.001509,-0.001182,-0.000583
Moldova_EastSlavic(20),0.137642,0.131058,0.065761,0.051148,0.037307,0.019850,0.008377,0.011766,-0.002013,-0.019282,0.014484,-0.005310,0.010476,0.006010,-0.006897,-0.002347,0.001567,-0.002425,-0.001965,0.000549,-0.004373,0.001300,0.002795,-0.000891,-0.001665
Romania_Moldova_Jewish(4),0.109435,0.148180,-0.008795,-0.047968,0.012369,-0.020038,-0.007044,0.000575,0.013726,0.018883,0.004158,-0.002455,0.006649,-0.001201,-0.000874,0.001382,-0.002418,-0.001586,-0.002547,0.002372,0.000560,-0.001560,0.000461,0.000207,0.000269
Romania_Muntenia_Roma(12),0.095523,0.067293,-0.057783,0.020382,-0.016882,0.013336,-0.000985,0.008666,0.015090,0.013265,0.004455,-0.001560,0.004542,0.000706,-0.003934,-0.000189,0.000938,-0.001850,-0.002335,-0.000161,-0.001975,-0.001744,0.001040,-0.001826,0.001232
Romania_Ardeal_1/4Roma(1),0.122530,0.115534,0.013092,0.020836,0.016043,0.007500,0.000397,0.006540,0.006478,0.002753,0.006769,-0.002067,0.004668,0.000978,-0.002479,-0.000447,-0.000203,-0.001750,-0.002035,0.000390,-0.001824,-0.000411,0.001262,-0.000886,-0.000238

Keep in mind that they behave good to each other and other converted coordinates from K13, but a bit odd against other G25 coordinates.

[Ioas]

To add on this here is pca that uses all this Romanian samples and plots them with other populations https://i.imgur.com/7LPwDu9.png

[FR9CZ6]

Thanks Riverman. I've never seen any Transylvanian Saxon samples before, though I know some people who have some Saxon ancestry via their great-grandparents or grandparents. It's amazing that after such a long time, they're still quite distinct genetically, even though they obviously have a significant admixture from the locals.

[Riverman]

This is the admixture run I didn't re-post before:



Among Romanians, the most (Saxon and Swabian) German are from Satu Mare, the most Szekler-Hungarian from Suceava. The latter is more debatable, because a mix of German-Hungarian-Slavic is present in Suceava, which basically simulates more actual Hungarian than there really is. Generally its more difficult to precisely separate Hungarian and German than Romanian and German.

[corrigendum]

Keep in mind that they behave good to each other and other converted coordinates from K13, but a bit odd against other G25 coordinates.

K13>G25 sims tend to depict part of ANF ancestry as Natufian/Levantine. Much of the 4-5% Natufian component in the sims is probably just ANF ancestry.

Comparison with Albanians and Serbs:



The two main components of Romanians are Slavic and Paleo-Balkan.

[Ioas]

Keep in mind that they behave good to each other and other converted coordinates from K13, but a bit odd against other G25 coordinates.

K13>G25 sims tend to depict part of ANF ancestry as Natufian/Levantine. Much of the 4-5% Natufian component in the sims is probably just ANF ancestry.

Comparison with Albanians and Serbs:



The two main components of Romanians are Slavic and Paleo-Balkan.

Where are the serbs  that plot with Albanians from ? Also the Serbian and romanian overlap is almost perfect