My results and shares

[Mulay 'Abdullah]

Have you thought about trying QPADM

Yes of course I've already thought about it, I even asked on AG if someone would agree to do it for me.
If someone know very well how to use it, keeping the confidentiality of my raw data without sharing  and is ready, that would be great, I would really like to know how I would be modeled with this tool
I don't know very well how qpAdm works but maybe we need samples of North Africans with background from al Andalus in the database too? and well I'm a little bit mixed, I need more than 3 Way.

[Mulay 'Abdullah]

Here is my first result for Iron Age in 2 Way. I have had these samples many times in my first results in 2 or 3 Way, it's recurrent, I had already talked about them on AG forum.
It's interesting because their genetic profile is particular: they are Etruscans but have a more "Northern" profile than other Etruscan averages, they are more shifted towards the Central European populations of the Bronze Age, the label given by Illustrative DNA can therefore be confusing.
It's even more interesting because they are not from a recent local admixture.


Description shared by Illustrative DNA:
Sample(s): CAM002, VET005, R10342


"Two C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu unrelated individuals (VET005 and CAM002) are characterized by a higher proportion of Yamnaya-related ancestry (40%) and are consistent with deriving from those Chalcolithic or Bronze Age European populations from both central and southern Europe that carried a high fraction of steppe-related ancestry. The two tested C.Italy_Etruscan.Ceu individuals represent an incoming ancestry that is not the result of recent local admixture. Those individuals originate from two different archeological sites and are radiocarbon dated to the seventh and third century BCE, respectively. Therefore, rather than persisting across several centuries, this distinct ancestry profile might have arrived independently from northern regions into central Italy multiple times."


Basically, it's a distinct central italic/italian profile in the Iron Age which is more northern shifted because more heavily Steppic than Etruscan and Latin averages which are ancient populations representatives of the central italic/italian ancestry in the Iron Age.

[Rober_tce]

@Mulay ‘Abdullah, do you have andalusies samples of 15th-16th centuries? I’m researching about andalusi impact in Iberian Peninsula, and when I say andalusi, I refer to their complete ancestral bloodlines, not only North African influence, because as you know surely, andalusies were in most number of them, hispanic-romans converted to Islam, whose admixed with north africans through next centuries after 711 conquest. These samples, if they exist, would be interesant to analyze.

[Mulay 'Abdullah]

@Mulay ‘Abdullah, do you have andalusies samples of 15th-16th centuries? I’m researching about andalusi impact in Iberian Peninsula, and when I say andalusi, I refer to their complete ancestral bloodlines, not only North African influence, because as you know surely, andalusies were in most number of them, hispanic-romans converted to Islam, whose admixed with north africans through next centuries after 711 conquest. These samples, if they exist, would be interesant to analyze.

I don't understand what you mean and we have some samples from this period but only from Grenada and Valencia regions, basically the south east.
We lack ancient samples from some major areas like in Aragon (outside Valencia area), Castilla, Portugal and other parts of al Andalus.
For the South Portugal we have the Montedanora samples which can be used as some proxy for some Mozarabic and Muwalladun people in early period of Al Andalus for his western part ("gharb al Andalus") and well in fact also for some other Andalusi people because they are similar on average, than samples from the "south_east", islamic period including..
This ancient "southern iberian" genetic profile which has twice more north african and central/eastern mediterranean ancestry than iberians from the north is "autochtonous", and seems typical for ancient southern iberians people when we see samples from Monte DaNora and from the South East.
This local ancient southern iberian profile disappeared with politics of colonization from northern iberian kingdoms through the "Reconquista" and forced expulsions, whether those who were forcibly converted to Christianity or others

For ancient Andalusi samples, what complicates the situation is that with the status of the "Mudejars" then the disappearance of their status and the population movements orchestrated after that by the news Christian powers by expelling communities from the peninsula or within the peninsula but outside their region of origin in some regions, the tracks are more blurred (it's especially the case for people from Grenada, Sevilla and Cordoba areas before last definitive expulsions from the peninsula ).
Besides if we are calling Andalusi in the Maghreb or "Morisco", in fact it has also some more distinctions for those who know and remember their affiliation, in the Communauty in exil (affiliations depending area where their ancestors lived before forced expulsions and also in addition sometimes for those who know if they have a specifical arab and or berber lineage).
As example, the "Benghabrit" family, a notorious Algerian Andalusi family in Algeria, has Arab lineage background from Arabs from Levant, the Banu al Ghassan...

The segmentation between "Arabs", "Muwallad" and "Berbers" (later added to a lesser extent that of the "Saqalliba" whose "Slavic" origin is noted but which in reality concerned the "white slaves" coming from from the Christian or pagan world, not limited only to areas of Slavic settlement, some also came from Galicia, Italy or elsewhere, in opposition to the "Sudani" slaves, "black slaves" coming mainly from Sahelian Africa) in society will exist especially in the beginning because the Arabs were the main leaders and official political beneficiaries of the "Futuhat" of al Andalus. 
The Ummayyad Califate relied mainly on Arab governors in the administration of its provinces because the political links were also based at the very beginning on links of political relations between the Arab tribes which were the first people historically to bear and expand the Islamic Message.
The "Berbers", the North Africans even if they were the most numerous soldiers in the Futuhate troops, had a lesser political and cultural role in the conquests and in Al Andalus. But that does not mean that there was no North African influence in these aspects, everything is not binary.
The names of the Djund, armed corps established in al Andalus, refer to the names of the cities of Shâm (the Levant).
It was especially in the beginnings of the establishment of the Almoravids and then the Almohads in Al Andalus that the North Africans gained greater political leadership and prestige in Al Andalus but very quickly these North African dynasties will "Andalusized", and the political and civilizational orientation in al Andalus remained above all "Arab" and not "North African". Andalusi were for example masters for poetry in classical arabic (they also had their own local arabic) especially with Shâmi (Levant) heritage.

It is the same during the periods of the Mûluk al Tawa'if, "Reyes al Taifa", the "Banu Dhu Annun" was an Andalusi dynasty with Arab identity and lineage claiming but which had in fact historically become Arabized, "Andalusianized", reigning in Tulaytullâh, Toledo, we know that originally this dynasty must have had origins in North Africa.
Another example, the Banu Hûd another Andalusi dynasty during the period of Ta'ifa in Saraqusta area (Zarogoza), had Arab from Yemen lineage background but were not seen as foreigners by other Andalusi people..
Conversely the Banu Ziris who had just arrived in al Andalus at the time of the "Fitna" between the Banu Hammud family coming from the Maghreb and the Caliphate dynasty of Banu 'Ummawiyya", which was established in the region of Granada, is of Berber origin, from the "Sanhadja" people in North Africa, was perceived as a foreign dynasty by the locals.
The Banu Hammud family having a nisba, sherifi affiliation, from the Family of the Holy Prophet Salla Llâhu' Alayhi wa Sallâm, established for several centuries in the Maghreb before its entry into al Andalus and supported by some recently arrived Berbers, claiming Arab lineage, identity, was seen in beginnings as a foreign dynasty.
Apart from the very first times following the Futuhate, all those who subsequently during the long history of al Andalus had just recently settled and established in al Andalus, were perceived as "foreigners", as non-Andalusi whether they are from an Arab or Berber tribe.

Andalusi people like Christians iberians from northern kingdoms, made the distinction and saw differently those who had newly arrived, perceived as "foreign political powers" even if in some cases they were seen in beginnings as protectors and saviors of al Andalus like for Almoravid dynasty, among Islamic Andalusi scholars and common Andalusi people.
Being "Andalusi" is being part of people who historically, culturally, politically, geographically is linked and also belonged to the History of the Iberian Peninsula, especially to the Islamic period of course which is the period and context where this identity emerged.
As example despite Sephardim Jews in North Africa and elsewhere are not on genetical point of view from local Iberians people background or very few linked to them unlike current Muslims Andalusi people in North Africa and elsewhere, they are also remnants of this identity and civilization.

[estel]

Since Berbers already share a lot of ancient ancestry with Iberians, I don't think there is a way of identifying "morisco" ancestry just from looking at DNA?

[estel]

Can you share eurogenes k13 of a fully andalusi relative?

[Genetics189291]

Since Berbers already share a lot of ancient ancestry with Iberians, I don't think there is a way of identifying "morisco" ancestry just from looking at DNA?

I wouldn’t say that Berbers share a lot of ancient ancestry, their components are from a different source

[Mulay 'Abdullah]

Since Berbers already share a lot of ancient ancestry with Iberians, I don't think there is a way of identifying "morisco" ancestry just from looking at DNA?

I wouldn’t say that Berbers share a lot of ancient ancestry, their components are from a different source

I think it's safer and more correct to say that both Iberians and North Africans, share partly common ancient ancestries by differents and numerous ways. In the same time they share a lot but also in the same time they remain differents a lot. 
Iberia and Northwest Africa were always linked through History.

[Mulay 'Abdullah]

Can you share eurogenes k13 of a fully andalusi relative?

Yeah of course, marhaban, I will share insha'Llâh. But hey, Eurogenes K13 is not the only and not forcibly the better, the more pertinent calculator (in addition it was originally made only for those who are only from current modern european countries). It's better to have more results from numerous differents calculators if we want to have a better gloabal idea with these.

[Rober_tce]

@Mulay ‘Abdullah, do you have andalusies samples of 15th-16th centuries? I’m researching about andalusi impact in Iberian Peninsula, and when I say andalusi, I refer to their complete ancestral bloodlines, not only North African influence, because as you know surely, andalusies were in most number of them, hispanic-romans converted to Islam, whose admixed with north africans through next centuries after 711 conquest. These samples, if they exist, would be interesant to analyze.

I don't understand what you mean and we have somme samples from this period but only from Grenada and Valencia regions, basically the south east.
We lack ancient samples from some major areas like in Aragon (outside Valencia area), Castilla, Portugal and other parts of al Andalus.
For the South Portugal we have the Montedanora samples which can be used as some proxy for some Mozarabic and Muwalladun people in early period of Al Andalus for his western part ("gharb al Andalus") and well in fact also for some other Andalusi people because they are similar on average, than samples from the "south_east", islamic period including..
This ancient "southern iberian" genetic profile which has twice more north african and central/eastern mediterranean ancestry than iberians from the north is "autochtonous", and seems typical for ancient southern iberians people when we see samples from Monte DaNora and from the South East.
This local ancient southern iberian profile disappeared with politics of colonization from northern iberian kingdoms through the "Reconquista" and forced expulsions, whether those who were forcibly converted to Christianity or others

For ancient Andalusi samples, what complicates the situation is that with the status of the "Mudejars" then the disappearance of their status and the population movements orchestrated after that by the news Christian powers by expelling communities from the peninsula or within the peninsula but outside their region of origin in some regions, the tracks are more blurred (it's especially the case for people from Grenada, Sevilla and Cordoba areas before last definitive expulsions from the peninsula ).
Besides if we are calling Andalusi in the Maghreb or "Morisco", in fact it has also some more distinctions for those who know and remember their affiliation, in the Communauty in exil (affiliations depending area where their ancestors lived before forced expulsions and also in addition sometimes for those who know if they have a specifical arab and or berber lineage).
As example, the "Benghabrit" family, a notorious Algerian Andalusi family in Algeria, has Arab lineage background from Arabs from Levant, the Banu al Ghassan...

The segmentation between "Arabs", "Muwallad" and "Berbers" (later added to a lesser extent that of the "Saqalliba" whose "Slavic" origin is noted but which in reality concerned the "white slaves" coming from from the Christian or pagan world, not limited only to areas of Slavic settlement, some also came from Galicia, Italy or elsewhere, in opposition to the "Sudani" slaves, "black slaves" coming mainly from Sahelian Africa) in society will exist especially in the beginning because the Arabs were the main leaders and official political beneficiaries of the "Futuhat" of al Andalus. 
The Ummayyad Califate relied mainly on Arab governors in the administration of its provinces because the political links were also based at the very beginning on links of political relations between the Arab tribes which were the first people historically to bear and expand the Islamic Message.
The "Berbers", the North Africans even if they were the most numerous soldiers in the Futuhate troops, had a lesser political and cultural role in the conquests and in Al Andalus. But that does not mean that there was no North African influence in these aspects, everything is not binary.
The names of the Djund, armed corps established in al Andalus, refer to the names of the cities of Shâm (the Levant).
It was especially in the beginnings of the establishment of the Almoravids and then the Almohads in Al Andalus that the North Africans gained greater political leadership and prestige in Al Andalus but very quickly these North African dynasties will "Andalusized", and the political and civilizational orientation in al Andalus remained above all "Arab" and not "North African". Andalusi were for example masters for poetry in classical arabic (they also had their own local arabic) especially with Shâmi (Levant) heritage.

It is the same during the periods of the Mûluk al Tawa'if, "Reyes al Taifa", the "Banu Dhu Annun" was an Andalusi dynasty with Arab identity and lineage claiming but which had in fact historically become Arabized, "Andalusianized", reigning in Tulaytullâh, Toledo, we know that originally this dynasty must have had origins in North Africa.
Another example, the Banu Hûd another Andalusi dynasty during the period of Ta'ifa in Saraqusta area (Zarogoza), had Arab from Yemen lineage background but were not seen as foreigners by other Andalusi people..
Conversely the Banu Ziris who had just arrived in al Andalus at the time of the "Fitna" between the Banu Hammud family coming from the Maghreb and the Caliphate dynasty of Banu 'Ummawiyya", which was established in the region of Granada, is of Berber origin, from the "Sanhadja" people in North Africa, was perceived as a foreign dynasty by the locals.
The Banu Hammud family having a nisba, sherifi affiliation, from the Family of the Holy Prophet Salla Llâhu' Alayhi wa Sallâm, established for several centuries in the Maghreb before its entry into al Andalus and supported by some recently arrived Berbers, claiming Arab lineage, identity, was seen in beginnings as a foreign dynasty.
Apart from the very first times following the Futuhate, all those who subsequently during the long history of al Andalus had just recently settled and established in al Andalus, were perceived as "foreigners", as non-Andalusi whether they are from an Arab or Berber tribe.

Andalusi people like Christians iberians from northern kingdoms, made the distinction and saw differently those who had newly arrived, perceived as "foreign political powers" even if in some cases they were seen in beginnings as protectors and saviors of al Andalus like for Almoravid dynasty, among Islamic Andalusi scholars and common Andalusi people.
Being "Andalusi" is being part of people who historically, culturally, politically, geographically is linked and also belonged to the History of the Iberian Peninsula, especially to the Islamic period of course which is the period and context where this identity emerged.
As example despite Sephardim Jews in North Africa and elsewhere are not on genetical point of view from local Iberians people background or very few linked to them unlike current Muslims Andalusi people in North Africa and elsewhere, they are also remnants of this identity and civilization.

Efectively I asked for samples of andalusi population after 1492, who made forced in 1502 to conversion. In 16th century, andalusi were very admixed between all ethnic groups that conformed in begining Al-Andalus (hispanic-roman or muwallad, arabs and berbers). In other threads of AG people has discussed very much about NA influence in Iberia, my point is knowing which is genetic composition of andalusies after Granada conquest.

[Mulay 'Abdullah]

I'm too lazy to share Gedrosia calculators, but if I'm asked I'll share them too later insha'llah.

[Genetics189291]

I think Harppaworld is one of the worse calculators for North Africans

[Mulay 'Abdullah]

I think Harppaworld is one of the worse calculators for North Africans

lol, i don't really know what is the worst but well being mixed a bit with in addition uncommon ancestry I do with what is offered to me...

[Mulay 'Abdullah]

@Mulay ‘Abdullah, do you have andalusies samples of 15th-16th centuries? I’m researching about andalusi impact in Iberian Peninsula, and when I say andalusi, I refer to their complete ancestral bloodlines, not only North African influence, because as you know surely, andalusies were in most number of them, hispanic-romans converted to Islam, whose admixed with north africans through next centuries after 711 conquest. These samples, if they exist, would be interesant to analyze.

Efectively I asked for samples of andalusi population after 1492, who made forced in 1502 to conversion. In 16th century, andalusi were very admixed between all ethnic groups that conformed in begining Al-Andalus (hispanic-roman or muwallad, arabs and berbers). In other threads of AG people has discussed very much about NA influence in Iberia, my point is knowing which is genetic composition of andalusies after Granada conquest.

I should reread the article: The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years
I believe that certain south-east Iberian samples had been identified from certain artefacts, from some details, as possibly being "moriscos" although having the classic characteristics of Muslim burials.
But from memory, I believe they did not draw any definitive conclusions for the samples in question.
In any case, strong endogamy already existed before the period (which differed more or less according the kingdoms and regions) where the only choice was exile, death or forced conversion to Christianity. 
Within the Andalusi "Mudejar" communities, endogamy had already prevailed for a long time and they formed the majority of Muslims, the remainder living in the Emirate of Granada with the status of free Muslims people.
The new status of "moro new Christian" (morisco) did not change much on this point, even if the political and religious authorities of the Iberian kingdoms encouraged mixed unions, especially those of women with this new status with the "old Christians". These measures had finally very limited effectiveness and were generally a failure, because the members continued to have matrimonial strategies between them and allowing them to protect themselves against the politico-religious measures they were subjected to (to a certain extent.....because the Inquisition lurked at every street corner and being denounced by an "old Christian" or a hateful fellow "morisco" for any reason could very quickly happen).
We can add on this subject that there were also probably few cases of conversions of Jews to Islam during the period of persecution against the Jews by the Christian crowns, before their last definitive expulsions (they were expelled before the Morisco Community), from the time when Mudejar communities still had a legal statut, a legal existence, but this phenomenon must have been quite weak.
Besides, regarding this point, that is relatively little known to the general public: the region of Granada before the time of the Ta'ifas was already heavily populated by a strong Jewish community according some historical records from al Andalus.

We need in fact more ancient samples from other major areas were Mudejars who by force of circumstances subsequently became the “morisco” , not only from the South East and if possible for the entire medieval period with extension to the early modern period (late middle age/ early modern period).
But I think that samples we have show the general profile, the "regional" differences within the communities, in the regions, having to relate more to the variations that any population experiences. But ithat's just my point of view , I could be totally wrong, because in any case we lack other samples from other regions in the different periods to draw a conclusion on it. The only thing at the moment that we have solid is for the South East, even for the South of Portugal we need more samples to have a more solid point of view.
In any case, with strong endogamy and a common deep history shared over several centuries, I think a certain "homogenization" must have occurred, except for "new cases".

[Rober_tce]

Thank you very much for the information.

What you say about Granada was this way, what's more, the founding of the city in the 11th century was around a town in Sabika called Garnata al-Yahud, which was initially constituted by a Jewish community. The conversions of Jews to Islam in the 12th century were really scarce, as you say, however the conversions to Christianity between the 14th and 15th centuries were massive (practically two-thirds of the Jewish population of the Christian kingdoms converted after the pogroms of 1391 and the preachings of Vicente Ferrer at the beginning of the 15th century), with which the expulsion of the Jewish population in 1492 was not so serious in numbers, if on top of those who had to leave, half chose to stay and convert.

Unfortunately, the expulsion of the Moriscos was in greater numbers, with the difference that they were already officially Christians. Although every expulsion process involved exceptions, and textbooks do not talk much about this, they prefer to omit this information. The survival of Jewish converts in Spain was greater after the expulsion decree for the reasons I mentioned before, but we cannot separate from Spain the Muslim converts who were able to stay, as the standar spanish official History intend. More and more genealogical writings of Moorish individuals and families are being discovered. For example, after the Alpujarras Revolt in 1571, in the towns themselves empty of Moors a priori, a minority of them were able to return because they were collaborators in some cases, or obtain other types of permits such as teaching the repopulators who had arrived from other kingdoms. to teach them to till the land, as an example I can put you in my family tree, because I discovered a Moorish couple, who I know were Moorish because they dated their birth in Alpujarra towns in 1550, where only moorish lived according to what I have consulted in farming books and repartimientos (Cañar, Soportújar), who after the conflict specifically returned to Cáñar and where their grandoughter was born, who is my ancestor, who mixed with an old Christian line (in which there were also two Jewish converts in the 15th century), of which they used the old Christian surnames to perpetuate themselves and avoid future problems. From this old part of my tree I can tell you that almost all the lines are old Christian repopulators, except three Jewish-converted lines (one of these line I know with certainty its origin and its individuals) and one Moorish, and all of these lines ended up settling in the former Kingdom of Granada, especially between the city of Granada and four towns in the Alpujarras.

For genealogical advances about this question I recommend to the Professor Enrique Soria Mesa, he’s specializated in jewish converted, but also he is researching now moorish lines, for example a serie of individuals procesed by Inquisition in 18th century.

For finalize my post, we could say moorish population was minnor their settlement in Spain after expulsión, but there were exceptions whose today is being discovered through genealogical registers.