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My results and shares
#31
(12-08-2023, 07:20 AM)Mulay 'Abdullah Wrote:
(12-07-2023, 08:08 AM)Mulay 'Abdullah Wrote: Comparison for modern Andalusi people and their genetic relationship with ancient populations, some examples, genetic distance, scaled:

Distance to: Moroccan_Fassi
0.04039047 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG
0.05467113 Turkey_Byzantine_oAfrica
0.06173269 IlustrativePunic(Sardinia)
0.06535801 Austria_Ovilava_Roman_oAfrica.SG
0.06542367 IlustrativePunic(Carthaginian)
0.06903298 Italy_Imperial_o1.SG
0.07393044 Lebanon_IA3_o2.SG
0.07664221 IllustrativeMorisco
0.07940548 Lebanon_Medieval_o1.SG
0.08073139 Italy_Sardinia_Roman_o
0.08208831 IllustrativeSouthIberian(VisigothicPeriod)
0.08274303 IllustrativeRomanIberian(Baetica)
0.08315462 Ibiza_Punic.SG
0.08497305 Italy_IA_Republic_oEasternMediterranean_o.SG
0.08576206 Algeria_NumidoRoman_Berber.SG
0.08684086 Morocco_LN.SG
0.08780415 England_IA_Roman_oMiddleEast.SG
0.08893806 IllustrativeEarlyMedievalIberian(MontedaNora)
0.08998183 IllustrativeAlAndalusMuslim
0.09147484 Italy_Sardinia_LA
0.09330043 Italy_Pompeii_Roman.SG
0.09509574 Egypt_ThirdIntermediatePeriod
0.09574967 Lebanon_Hellenistic.SG
0.09623467 CanaryIslands_Guanche.SG
0.09674262 Italy_Imperial_o4.SG


Distance to: Moroccan_Morisco
0.04188909 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG
0.05110735 Austria_Ovilava_Roman_oAfrica.SG
0.06184929 IlustrativePunic(Carthaginian)
0.06242623 IlustrativePunic(Sardinia)
0.06912760 CanaryIslands_Guanche.SG
0.06916566 Morocco_LN.SG
0.07089573 Turkey_Byzantine_oAfrica
0.08611551 Lebanon_Medieval_o1.SG
0.08675650 IllustrativeMorisco
0.08766008 IllustrativeSouthIberian(VisigothicPeriod)
0.08817749 Italy_IA_Republic_oEasternMediterranean_o.SG
0.08934301 IllustrativeRomanIberian(Baetica)
0.08961220 Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica
0.09217526 Italy_Imperial_o1.SG
0.09525719 IllustrativeEarlyMedievalIberian(MontedaNora)
0.09547597 Ibiza_Punic.SG
0.09603312 IllustrativeAlAndalusMuslim
0.09970620 Lebanon_IA3_o2.SG
0.10426135 Spain_Zapateria_Argar
0.10478801 Italy_Sardinia_Roman_o
0.10777041 Tunisia_Punic_oAfrica1.SG
0.11030388 Italy_Tuscany_Grosseto_Etruscan_oEastMed
0.11179437 England_IA_Roman_oMiddleEast.SG
0.11318825 Italy_Sardinia_LA
0.11374236 Algeria_NumidoRoman_Berber.SG


Distance to: Moroccan_Morisco_Tetouan
0.03371313 IllustrativeMorisco
0.03509506 IllustrativeSouthIberian(VisigothicPeriod)
0.03690700 Lebanon_Medieval_o1.SG
0.04128657 IllustrativeEarlyMedievalIberian(MontedaNora)
0.04212909 IllustrativeRomanIberian(Baetica)
0.04386197 Ibiza_Punic.SG
0.04430891 IllustrativeAlAndalusMuslim
0.04972828 IlustrativePunic(Carthaginian)
0.04984560 Italy_IA_Republic_oEasternMediterranean_o.SG
0.05010821 IlustrativePunic(Sardinia)
0.05950641 Italy_Imperial_o1.SG
0.06017992 Spain_Zapateria_Argar
0.06107990 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG
0.06445641 Italy_Tuscany_Grosseto_Etruscan_oEastMed
0.06483277 Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.06555926 Tunisia_Punic.SG
0.07086711 Algeria_NumidoRoman_Berber.SG
0.07209734 Italy_Sardinia_Roman_o
0.07236673 Italy_Medieval_o2.SG
0.07269087 IllustrativeRomanIberian(Miroico)
0.07280812 Italy_Medieval.SG
0.07285189 Croatia_SisakPogorelec_Roman.SG
0.07369850 Italy_Sardinia_LA
0.07380759 Italy_Bivio_Roman.SG
0.07405216 Italy_Lazio_Viterbo_EarlyMedieval


I suspect also some othern modern samples to have mainly or good part of Andalusi background like for examples Tunisia Sfax because Sfax with Zaghouan and some other areas in Tunisia are known historically for massive settlements from Andalusi expelled people after last definitive expulsions in XVII Th century (they were many expulsions before the tragic event of the XVIIth century) and their presence is still visible and known .
But I have no personnal information about this sample. Most of members from the current Andalusi community today in North Africa, are mostly from the last waves of refugees from Iberia in XVIIth century.

The same but with ancient individuals for to look their similarity genetic distance, scaled:

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-08-074447.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-08-074331.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-08-074253.png]

Well, for the "Morisco" from Salé and Fassi their first genetic similarity is with the outlier imperial Roman sample.
Let's go to look a little deeper how they work with 2 Way, both ancient and modern averages populations.


[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-08-143326.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-08-143227.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-08-143113.png]


Amazing, the 3 have similar affinity for the Imperial outlier sample as main source populations with similar proportion.
Tetouan has shifted toward eastern europe ancestry (very probably because of more Yamnaya), Fassi shifted to Iran/Caucasus ancestry and the last from Salé shifted to more north african ancestry. 

How look this sample with 2 Way both averages ancient and modern:

1.8 million models (0.63 s):
0.13565 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 62% Israel_PPNB + 38% Italy_Sardinia_N_oAfrica
0.13576 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 52% Italy_Sardinia_N_oAfrica + 48% Hungary_EN_Starcevo_2_all
0.13592 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 74% Hungary_EN_Starcevo_2_all + 26% Morocco_EN.SG
0.13595 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 74% Hungary_EN_Starcevo_2_all + 26% Morocco_Iberomaurusian
0.13597 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 75% Hungary_EN_Starcevo_1 + 25% Morocco_EN.SG
0.13603 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 51% Italy_Sardinia_N_oAfrica + 49% Hungary_EN_Koros
0.13604 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 52% Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica + 48% Israel_PPNB
0.13606 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 53% Italy_Sardinia_N_oAfrica + 47% Serbia_LepenskiVir_EN.SG
0.13610 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 51% Italy_Sardinia_N_oAfrica + 49% Turkey_N.DG
0.13612 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 54% Jordan_PPNC + 46% Spain_BellBeaker_oAfrica

So heavily anatolian farmer+ Iberomaurusians with mixture of Levantine, Caucaus/Iranian..

This sample with modern populations 2 Way:

392,055 models (0.24 s):

0.02396 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 55% Berber_Tunisia_Chen + 45% Italian_Jew
0.02473 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 59% Berber_Tunisia_Chen + 41% Italian_Calabria
0.02486 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 54% Berber_Tunisia_Chen + 46% Sephardic_Jew
0.02497 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 55% Berber_Tunisia_Chen + 45% Romaniote_Jew
0.02501 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 77% Tunisia + 23% Sardinian
0.02501 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 57% Moroccan_North + 43% Sephardic_Jew
0.02507 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 61% Berber_Tunisia_Chen + 39% Greek_Dodecanese
0.02507 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 59% Berber_Tunisia_Chen + 41% Sicilian_East
0.02514 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 57% Moroccan_North + 43% Italian_Jew
0.02525 Italy_Imperial_oAfrica.SG:R132.SG = 61% Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua + 39% Italian_Calabria


Ok, so we have more global comprenhensive idea, basically around, more a little of half North African ancestry properly+ combo anatolian/east med components (clearly shifted toward eastern mediterranean ancestry).So basically they have a North African ancestry shifted toward south european/east mediterannean ancestry as main type source of ancestry+ each their own shifts.



And finally their results on 2 way with modern averages populations they look like that, we must keeping in mind informations before for to better understand these results:

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-08-150126.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-08-150001.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-08-145859.png]


Well in short some remarks for Fassi: this average is from people who seem to be from ancient old urban Fassi backstock families, very typically result for traditionnal ancient Fassi families.
They are Muslims people.
Fez was inhabited mainly by some "berbers", "arabs tribes" and also was massively settled by Muslims Andalusi people and Jews Andalusi people (sephardim).
In both religion some interdictions according their own religious law, strongly limit marriages between them.
Especially since in ancient times people tended to be a little more endogamous, it was rather the elites who, as they had more use, possibilities but also interests, who tended to marry more outside the part of their ethno-religious group. In addition, in the thoraïc law, in the Halakha, judaïsm is obligatory through the mother.
I suspect that this result with a Jewish source is more of an artifact here due to a missing representative modern population in the datasheet.
Like the Imperial African outlier, this North African profile seems to have been a little more common in Antiquity, during the period of the Roman Empire and is probably the result of deep mixing between Imperial Romans who were east med shifted and North African populations or carriers of quite strong North African ancestry (as was the case of the ancient Hispano-Roman populations in the South of the Iberian Peninsula)
Besides few times this also happened to me with G25 although my numerous tests etc. have demonstrated that there is no question of "Jewish" ancestry and most of the time I have some italian like result in this aspect.
In this case this can be explained by the fact that certain populations have combos in their components sometimes making them resemble Jewish ancestry. This is the case with Italians and others for example. To conclude this point, we also find this example among the Andalusi Muslims who, when there is no representative population can sometimes emerge with results also in Jewish ancestry.
This is simply explained by the fact that Jews also partly share common components with these populations: combo basal southern European/Caucasus-Iranian combo + a pinch of some Levant. We can see this point in the post I share below, zoom picture 2 for to see the central/eastern mediterranean ancestry in iberians people, Andalusi Muslims people originally had twice more than their northern christians neighbors:
Genetics189291 likes this post
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#32
(12-05-2023, 11:27 PM)Mulay 'Abdullah Wrote: 3D PCA with some averages for modern populations and ancient averages from Illustrative DNA

[Image: Vahaduo-Eurogenes-G25-3-D-49.png]


We can see clearly their cluster: Andalusi people both  whether forced converts or not to christianism, they are same people, only legal status is different, before expulsions plot with ancient Southern Iberians. But well, this genetic continuity no longer needs to be demonstrated.
Also differences with modern Canarians populations are: less European HG ancestry, similar North African ancestry and more East Mediterannean ancestry. Modern Canarians are more on Basque/North African cline, the ancient Southern Iberian profile is more shifted to Central/Eastern Mediterranean.
Regarding this ancient "Southern Iberian" genetic profile, less European HG is because they have less Steppic component, more Eastern Mediterannean ancestry is because of Imperial Romans, ancient greeks/hellenistic and phoenicians/carthaginians settlements with possibly in addition little input from Jews and also some arabs and berber tribes settled during Islamic period.
This "Southern Iberian" genetic profil disappeared in Iberia, in modern Iberians populations with the policies of expulsion of "Moriscos" and repopulation by settlers from the north of the peninsula  and from other countries like we know from historical records, modern academic genetics studies confirmed these points, for to see this ancient "Southern Iberian" profile, picture E and others, from the study : The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years

[Image: nihms-1019025-f0001.jpg]
Genetics189291 likes this post
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#33
I must also find insha'Llâh the papers that I came across, which model this imperial outlier sample from North Africa basically as half North African ancestry and half central/eastern Mediterranean ancestry which confirm and go in the direction of the exposed points.
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#34
Well, for better insight view of the mainly type of North African ancestry of the outlier sample R132 which is the first result in 2 Way of the mainly affinity source of North African ancestry for Andalusi people, from the study Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean
:

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-052047.png]

Proportion ancestry for this Imperial oulier sample:

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-052204.png]

So basically half North African ancestry+ half Imperial Roman Ancestry.
That makes completely sense this affinity among modern North Africans Andalusi because they also share similar basic ancestry: most of Andalusi people are not totally from Arabic or Berber background even if inter marriages occured between former Hispano-Romans alias al Muwalladun people in early Islamic area and Arabs and Berbers tribes people and mostly they are (al Muwalladun) from heavily admixtures between Iberians people who predated Imperial Romans and Imperial Romans.

A short point concerning the category of "Muwalladun", "Berbers", "Arabs" etc : on historical point of view these subdivisions were mainly political because Arabs and in a minor aspect some Berbers were at the top of the hierarchy for the ruling in al Andalus but the relationship of political power between Arabs and Berbers will fluctuate and in certain areas and at certain periods, it was Berbers who dominated politically but not on global point of view excepting with Almoravides, Al Murabitun and Almohades, Al Muwwahidun dynasties in Al Andalus who were from North Africans berber tribes.
But later around the 9th and especially the 10th century, these subdivisions didn't really matter anymore.
Because the majority of Andalus according a lot of Historians was Arabized and Islamized, many marriages had occurred between the Muwallad with Arabs, with Berbers, etc. and apart from new arrivals from North Africa who do not speak Arabic or elsewhere but even those originally from Berber tribes were Arabized.



For to come back to the North African ancestry we know historically this presence in Southern Iberia since Imperial Romans but it is also possible that Southern Iberia had already received more or less strong gene flow of  North African ancestry with the Carthaginian Empire which for a fairly long period had important territories in Iberia, especially in the South, South-East.



About what is composition for the Imperial Roman Ancestry:

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-052406.png]

Well it's more clear and makes totally sense. Andalusi people here are mainly from Iberian/Imperial Roman background admixtures+North African ancestry. So affinity with this sample and similar samples is obvious.
In addition with academic paper about Iberians, including some ancient Andalusi samples with previous samples from Roman and Wisigothic period  Romans in Southern Iberia, maybe it can to give a better global view of this complex ancestry, the study: The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over the past 8000 years



But we must to remember that we lack of samples for Andalusi people from other areas in Spain and Portugal, Andalusi people were not only in the South/South-East of spain, we definitely need more ancient samples but also modern samples from North Africa where the community is bigger than other places in the world. We can see some coherent points, but we need definitely more ancient samples from other regions and modern samples.
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#35
Otherwise, I also uploaded the raw data from Ancestry to DNA Genics, I had done it before for the raw data from 23andMe. And I hadn't paid attention but I also have coordinates made by DNA Genics, I will share some results insha'Llâh with comparisons.
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#36
My results with 2 Way Ancient individuals being mixed European and partly Maghrebi Andalusi with coords from Ancestry and 23andMe for comparison:

Ancestry
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-08-072639.png]

With coords from Genetics DNA from my Ancestry's raw data so not properly G25 from Davidsky but with same "format":
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-180056.png]




23andMe
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-120613.png]

With coords from Genetics DNA from my 23andMe's raw data so not properly G25 but with same "format":
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-180605.png]
Genetics189291 likes this post
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#37
Well historical records for to understand better complex diversity and dynamism of Al Andalus are necessary.
There were minority of Arabs, Egyptians, Yemeni, Levantines, SSA, even some Persian were noted to settle in al Andalus especially in Granada area also during the Nazari Emirate based on historical sources like here as examples :Shojaeddin Shafa, De Persia a la España musulmana : la historia recuperada, Université de Huelva (Espagne), 2000, traduction en espagnol du manuscrit en français, inédit, par Maria Angeles Gallego Garcia.
Kenesson, Summer S. (1992), "Nasrid Luster Pottery: The Alhambra Vases", Muqarnas.

Some Arabs historians like Ibn Battuta and others spoke about Persians people who settled in al Andalus and they were not only from ancient Persia "Fars" but also some were from Bukhara and India under the name of "Farsi" (Persians) people. We must to understand that the "persian world" in Middle Ages and early modern history, especially in the Islamic and Arab world, is not only the "Fars" (current modern Iran) but also the Khorassan which is area with some central asia part (Bukhara for example), the current Afghanistan and the North west of indian sub continent, in modern Pakistan. We have many historical records which testify of this persian descent in Al Andalus with in addition cultural influences.

One great historical example is the notorious scholar Andalusi from Qurtuba (from Cordoba) Ibn Hazm.
He was one of the most notable and influencal figures of Islamic history about whom Imam Al-Dhahabi another famous great Islamic scholar (Syrian/Shami of Turkistani descent) said:

قال الذهبي في بداية ترجمته :

( الإمام الأوحد البحر ، ذو الفنون والمعارف ، أبو محمد ، علي بن أحمد بن سعيد بن حزم بن غالب بن صالح بن خلف بن معدان بن سفيان بن يزيد ، الفارسي الأصل ، ثم الأندلسي القرطبي اليزيدي ) المصدر : سير أعلام النبلاء ( 18 / 184 ) .

Al-Dhahabi:

“The sea of knowledge, the man with skills and insight, Abu Mohammad, Ali Ibn Ahmad Ibn Saeed IBN HAZM ibn Ghalib Ibn Salih Ibn Khalf Ibn Madan Ibn Sufyan Ibn Yazeed, OF PERSIAN DESCENT, then Andalusian (from al Andalus), Cordobian (Qurtubi).

[Siyar A’lam Al-Nubala’ 184/ 18 of Imam Al-Dhahabi]

There were Slavs also, often brought as slaves in armies,"as Saqalliba" and one of the Taifas, like Taïfa of Murcia was ruled by Slavic leadership.
It was generally very diverse, but the vast majority of inhabitants of Al Andalus were from native Hispano-Romans background who converted to Islam and obviously heavily intermixing between numerous lineages occured since the Xth century especially for late Andalusi people from the 13th century (fall of Sevilla, Cordoba, and most of city-states of al Andalus (al Ta'îfa) to definitive expulsions in the XVII th century.
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#38
(12-09-2023, 04:56 PM)Mulay 'Abdullah Wrote: My results with 2 Way Ancient individuals being mixed European and partly Maghrebi Andalusi with coords from Ancestry and 23andMe for comparison:

Ancestry
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-08-072639.png]

With coords from Genetics DNA from my Ancestry's raw data so not properly G25 from Davidsky but with same "format":
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-180056.png]




23andMe
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-120613.png]

With coords from Genetics DNA from my 23andMe's raw data so not properly G25 but with same "format":
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-180605.png]


Comparison with ancient averages for 2 Way with my G25 and DNA Genics coordinates and some results from my upload of my Ancestry's raw data according DNA Genics.


[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-111926.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-112204.png]



[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-112705.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-112507.png]







Global Ancient Composition
From 10.000 BCE to 1.500 CE
GENETIC SIMILARITY REPORT
The genetic makeup of an individual is the result of the inherited genes from their ancestors. By conducting a DNA analysis, we can identify genetic similarities to ancient populations and gain insight into an individual's ancestry. Human migration must be taken into account when interpreting these results, as it can affect the genetic makeup of a population. For instance, individuals with ancient Siberian ancestry may match genetic samples from Siberia or America due to the migration of North/East Asian populations to America over 15,000 years ago.
The ancient samples used in this analysis ranges from 10.000 BCE to 1.500 CE.
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#39
Some results based on raw data acccording DNA Genics.

Global Ancient Composition
From 10.000 BCE to 1.500 CE
GENETIC SIMILARITY REPORT
The genetic makeup of an individual is the result of the inherited genes from their ancestors. By conducting a DNA analysis, we can identify genetic similarities to ancient populations and gain insight into an individual's ancestry. Human migration must be taken into account when interpreting these results, as it can affect the genetic makeup of a population. For instance, individuals with ancient Siberian ancestry may match genetic samples from Siberia or America due to the migration of North/East Asian populations to America over 15,000 years ago.

The ancient samples used in this analysis ranges from 10.000 BCE to 1.500 CE.




Ancestry upolad

One Way
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-114046.png]

2 Way
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-114200.png]






23andMe upload

One Way
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-120025.png]

2 Way
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-115547.png]
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#40
Ancestry
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-123840.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-124049.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-124115.png]





23andMe
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-10-123652.png]
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#41
For curiosity with Chebyshev distance for the standard calculator from Davidski, I made 10 runs lol (no problem it's fast) and keep the best fit with Cycles X16 (the maximum), scaled

Chebyshev distance: 1.7324% / 0.01732411
31.2 TUR_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
29.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
11.6 WHG
8.6 TUR_Barcin_N
8.2 MAR_Taforalt
4.6 Levant_PPNB
3.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
1.8 Yoruba
1.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 Han
0.2 Jarawa

Well it's interesting because my Yamnaya is less inflated because of overlap with additional Caucasus/iran I have which is not related to Yamnaya and is not always shown by some calculators, it's better.
Besides with Illustrative my extra Caucasus/iranian is shown and interesting: they give me Caucasus Novosvobodnaya which is heavily Iranian admixed (more than CHG properly) and heavily Anatolian admixed. So it's more a combo from Illustrative  for my case because I have not "Zagros" properly.
My result as example here from Illustrative for the Bronze Age period (I colored my result with the reference attributed to me in question):

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-11-205159.png]


And admixture of this component according academic paper "Ancient human genome-wide data from a 3000-year interval in the Caucasus corresponds with eco-geographic regions":

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-11-203942.png]


Addition about 'Maykop Novosvobodnaya’ from this study:

"The Maykop period, represented by 12 individuals from eight Maykop sites (Maykop, n = 2; a cultural variant ‘Novosvobodnaya’ from the site Klady, n = 4; and Late Maykop, n = 6) in the northern foothills appears homogeneous. These individuals closely resemble the preceding Eneolithic Caucasus individuals and present a continuation of the local genetic profile. This ancestry persists in the following centuries at least until ~3100 yBP (1100 calBCE), as revealed by individuals from Kura-Araxes from both the northeast (Velikent, Dagestan) and the South Caucasus (Kaps, Armenia), as well as MBA/LBA individuals (e.g. Kudachurt, Marchenkova Gora) from the north. Overall, this Caucasus ancestry profile falls among the ‘Armenian and Iranian Chalcolithic’ individuals and is indistinguishable from other Kura-Araxes individuals (Armenian EBA) on the PCA plot (Fig. 2), suggesting a dual origin involving Anatolian/Levantine and Iran Neolithic/CHG ancestry, with only minimal EHG/WHG contribution possibly as part of the AF ancestry9"

"We also found no direct evidence of EHG or WHG ancestry in Caucasus groups (Supplementary Table 9), but observed that Kura-Araxes and Maykop-Novosvobodnaya individuals had likely received additional Iran Chalcolithic-related ancestry (24.9% and 37.4%, respectively; Fig. 4; Supplementary Table 10)."


So it's the most Iranian admixed among ancient Caucasus components and well, effectively I have also some other results not only with G25 which confirm this extra input in Caucasus/Iranian
Genetics189291 likes this post
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#42
Ayewa, from YourDNAPortal, results for ancient K36


With Ancestry raw data



[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-12-121836.png]



[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-084215.png]


[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-083654.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-083955.png]




[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-12-113549.png]
[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-084243.png]



[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-084305.png]




[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-084337.png]



[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-12-113357.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-12-113454.png]
Genetics189291 and HurricaneSeason like this post
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#43
23andMe raw data

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-12-121836.png]


[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-161923.png]




[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-161948.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-162007.png]



[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-12-113549.png]


[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-162041.png]



[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-162110.png]



[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-162132.png]



[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-162158.png]

[Image: Capture-d-cran-2023-12-09-162219.png]
HurricaneSeason and Genetics189291 like this post
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#44
Averages ancient pops reduce 7, scaled and unscaled:

Unscaled:
Distance: 0.0055% / 0.00545512 | R7P
32.9 Scotland_IA
19.4 Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya_o
18.7 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_in.preparation
18.2 Ukraine_EBA_GlobularAmphora
5.9 Morocco_EN.SG
2.9 Israel_Natufian_d
2.0 Russia_Yana_Medieval.SG

Scaled:
Distance: 0.0092% / 0.00918657 | R7P
24.9 Scotland_IA
20.6 Ukraine_EBA_GlobularAmphora
18.5 Bulgaria_EBA_Yamnaya_o
17.4 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_in.preparation
9.8 Germany_Hassleben_Germanic_elite_1.SG
6.8 Morocco_EN.SG
2.0 Congo_Kindoki_Protohistoric


Individuals, ancient, 7 reduce pops:

Unscaled
Distance: 0.0022% / 0.00215162 | R7P
22.3 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG
21.0 CanaryIslands_Guanche.SG
17.0 Germany_EN_LBK
13.5 France_Occitanie_EMBA.SG
9.5 Germany_CordedWare
9.4 England_IA
7.3 Germany_Schortens_Saxon_EMedieval


Scaled
Distance: 0.0039% / 0.00391369 | R7P
27.3 Denmark_Viking.SG
20.1 Bulgaria_EIA
19.6 Spain_Almoloya_Argar_Early
16.4 Poland_Weklice_WielbarkCulture_Roman.SG
8.1 Greece_BA_Mycenaean_in.preparation
5.8 Morocco_EN.SG
2.7 Congo_Kindoki_Protohistoric
Genetics189291 likes this post
يَا أَيُّهَا النَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَاكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَاكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَائِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوا ۚ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ اللَّهِ أَتْقَاكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
S.49:13

Code:
Unscaled
0.01794617    Spain_Roman_oMixed
0.01889478    Portugal_MonteDaNora_LateRoman
0.01890273    Austria_Ovilava_Roman
يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ إِنَّا خَلَقْنَٰكُم مِّن ذَكَرٍ وَأُنثَىٰ وَجَعَلْنَٰكُمْ شُعُوبًا وَقَبَآئِلَ لِتَعَارَفُوٓا۟ إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِندَ ٱللَّهِ أَتْقَىٰكُمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ عَلِيمٌ خَبِيرٌ
Reply
#45
Have you thought about trying QPADM
Mulay 'Abdullah likes this post
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