E-V13 - Theories on its Origin and New Data

[Riverman]

theytree doesn't seem to care too much about samples, whether it has low coverage, is not negative for downstream for sure.

I mean perhaps they want to include as much as samples as possible.

FTDNA has included it as well. You can find it in Discovery under E-L618. In any case, it can be used as a safe starting point unless we get more information.

[Capsian20]

theytree doesn't seem to care too much about samples, whether it has low coverage, is not negative for downstream for sure.

I mean perhaps they want to include as much as samples as possible.

FTDNA has included it as well. You can find it in Discovery under E-L618. In any case, it can be used as a safe starting point unless we get more information.

Its possible this sample its E-L618* or at least E-L618<CTS1975*

[Riverman]

theytree doesn't seem to care too much about samples, whether it has low coverage, is not negative for downstream for sure.

I mean perhaps they want to include as much as samples as possible.

FTDNA has included it as well. You can find it in Discovery under E-L618. In any case, it can be used as a safe starting point unless we get more information.

Its possible this sample its E-L618* or at least E-L618<CTS1975*

I think that much is confirmed, the question from which individual this haplogroup is coming from, from the actual Copper Age burial or from a different individual, because of the supposed contamination and the, for the site and time, rather unusual autosomal profile.

[Capsian20]

FTDNA has included it as well. You can find it in Discovery under E-L618. In any case, it can be used as a safe starting point unless we get more information.

Its possible this sample its E-L618* or at least E-L618<CTS1975*

I think that much is confirmed, the question from which individual this haplogroup is coming from, from the actual Copper Age burial or from a different individual, because of the supposed contamination and the, for the site and time, rather unusual autosomal profile.

maybe it's related with Yamnaya

[Riverman]

I'm also looking forward to this paper I posted about before:

CONTRASTING GENETIC IMPACTS OF EASTERN MIGRANTS ON EARLY IRON AGE COMMUNITIES IN HUNGARY AND TRANSYLVANIA

Luka Papac1, Mariana Egri2, Angela Mötsch1, Thiseas Lamnidis1, Szilárd Gál3, Aurel Rustoiu2, Stephan Schiffels1

1 Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany.
2 Institute of Archaeology and Art History, Cluj-Napoca, Romania.
3 Mureş County Museum, Târgu Mureş, Romania.

Ancient DNA from Iron Age nomads across the Eurasian steppe, including individuals from “Scythian” contexts, has revealed their varied genetic origins and high genetic diversity. However, little is known about their genetic impact and legacy on European communities. By analysing genomes of “Scythian” Age individuals from Transylvania (n=67, unpublished) and Hungary (n=7, previously published), we find ~40% eastern admixture in Transylvania but 0% in Hungary. In contrast to the trans-Eurasian migrations to the Pannonian Basin in the Avar period, the eastern ancestry in Transylvanian “Scythians” largely came from “Scythian” communities in neighbouring Moldova and Ukraine, which admixed into the pre-existing Balkan genetic substratum. In addition to eastern ancestry, we find multiple genetic outlier individuals from central/northern Europe and southern Balkans buried in “Scythian” contexts, implying a dynamic admixture process associated with the formation of these “Scythian” communities. From Transylvania, we reconstruct several families from “Scythian” burial contexts up to three generations deep, most consisting of members with and without eastern ancestry, documenting real-time admixture between locals and eastern migrants. Among these is also a case of siblings buried 11km apart. However, this eastern ancestry did not persist after the “Scythian” period, with subsequent “Celtic” Age associated individuals (n=6) carrying primarily the pre-existing local ancestry with limited evidence of additional central European or eastern gene flow.

This completely debunks the idea of the "Balkan ancestry" spreading only in the Roman era North of the Danube and it proves, what I have been saying all along, that the local ancestry persisted during the Scythian, Celtic and Sarmatian period in the East Carpathians. There can be little doubt that this local (mostly Dacian) element will yield E-V13.

[rafc]

I'm also looking forward to this paper I posted about before:

CONTRASTING GENETIC IMPACTS OF EASTERN MIGRANTS ON EARLY IRON AGE COMMUNITIES IN HUNGARY AND TRANSYLVANIA

Luka Papac1, Mariana Egri2, Angela Mötsch1, Thiseas Lamnidis1, Szilárd Gál3, Aurel Rustoiu2, Stephan Schiffels1

1 Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany.
2 Institute of Archaeology and Art History, Cluj-Napoca, Romania.
3 Mureş County Museum, Târgu Mureş, Romania.

Ancient DNA from Iron Age nomads across the Eurasian steppe, including individuals from “Scythian” contexts, has revealed their varied genetic origins and high genetic diversity. However, little is known about their genetic impact and legacy on European communities. By analysing genomes of “Scythian” Age individuals from Transylvania (n=67, unpublished) and Hungary (n=7, previously published), we find ~40% eastern admixture in Transylvania but 0% in Hungary. In contrast to the trans-Eurasian migrations to the Pannonian Basin in the Avar period, the eastern ancestry in Transylvanian “Scythians” largely came from “Scythian” communities in neighbouring Moldova and Ukraine, which admixed into the pre-existing Balkan genetic substratum. In addition to eastern ancestry, we find multiple genetic outlier individuals from central/northern Europe and southern Balkans buried in “Scythian” contexts, implying a dynamic admixture process associated with the formation of these “Scythian” communities. From Transylvania, we reconstruct several families from “Scythian” burial contexts up to three generations deep, most consisting of members with and without eastern ancestry, documenting real-time admixture between locals and eastern migrants. Among these is also a case of siblings buried 11km apart. However, this eastern ancestry did not persist after the “Scythian” period, with subsequent “Celtic” Age associated individuals (n=6) carrying primarily the pre-existing local ancestry with limited evidence of additional central European or eastern gene flow.

This completely debunks the idea of the "Balkan ancestry" spreading only in the Roman era North of the Danube and it proves, what I have been saying all along, that the local ancestry persisted during the Scythian, Celtic and Sarmatian period in the East Carpathians. There can be little doubt that this local (mostly Dacian) element will yield E-V13.

Hard to say much on it as long as we don't see the data. It seems to be complementary to the Rohrlach paper (also from the Max Planck institute) which goes up to the LBA, while this paper seems to pick up somewhere in the EIA. I wonder if they are meant to come out together.

But note that the paper you cite is not on the current list of accepted papers for E-A-A 2024. It was submitted in any case, it's where we got all those abstracts we were not supposed to see from, so there is still a chance it will be accepted, the list is not final. The Rohrlach paper is on the list of accepted ones.

[Capsian20]

https://twitter.com/AlbHistory/status/17...Ft2CF0c-4x

[Riverman]

Some supposedly new samples from the Tisza region, mostly from the Avar period:
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...9#pid17119

Theytree assignments:
https://www.theytree.com/portal/index/sa...ommunities

14 E1b1b/E-V13 samples. Those more downstream are E-CTS9320, E-S2979, E-L241 and E-Y150909. No idea whether are are completely new samples, but they come from this paper:

Network of large pedigrees reveals social practices of Avar communities

From 567/68 CE, the onset of the Avar period, populations from the Eurasian Steppe settled in the Carpathian Basin for approximately 250 years. An extensive sampling for archaeogenomics (424 individuals) and isotopes, combined with archaeological, anthropological, and historical contextualization on four Avar-period cemeteries, allowed for a detailed description of the genomic structure of these communities and their kinship and social practices. We present the largest set of pedigrees reconstructed so far through aDNA, spanning over 9 generations comprising ~300 individuals. We uncover a strict patrilineal kinship system, where patrilocality and female exogamy were the norm and multiple reproductive partnering and levirate unions were commonly practiced. The absence of consanguinity indicates this society maintained a detailed memory of ancestry over generations. These kinship practices correspond to the evidence of historical sources and anthropological research on Eurasian Steppe societies. Novel network analyses of identity-by-descent DNA connections suggest social cohesion between communities was maintained via females. Finally, despite the absence of major ancestry shifts, the level of resolution reached by our analyses allowed us to detect genetic discontinuity: the replacement of a community at one of the studied sites. This was paralleled with changes in the archaeological record and was likely due to local political realignment.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB72021

The majority looks pretty Southern/South Eastern, but they vary, some have East-Central Asian ancestry as well.

[Southpaw]

There is a possibility that the people we knew as Phrygians used to live in Thrace before being driven out by actual Thracian E-V13-ers.

[Riverman]

There is a possibility that the people we knew as Phrygians used to live in Thrace before being driven out by actual Thracian E-V13-ers.

The Phrygians being most commonly identified with the Brygi in the Balkans. Those are supposed to have around Albania:



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges

It is pretty obvious that Illyrians and Thracians both pushed Brygi and Paeonians. While the Brygi can't possibly be associated with E-V13, the status of Paeonians is less obvious. Oftentimes its not even clear whether a tribe was Thracian, Paeonian or Brygi to begin with. The sources on those people are relatively scarce, yet they don't look to me like being associated with E-V13 generally speaking.

[Southpaw]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges

It is pretty obvious that Illyrians and Thracians both pushed Brygi and Paeonians. While the Brygi can't possibly be associated with E-V13, the status of Paeonians is less obvious. Oftentimes its not even clear whether a tribe was Thracian, Paeonian or Brygi to begin with. The sources on those people are relatively scarce, yet they don't look to me like being associated with E-V13 generally speaking.

I was quite clear in my post, i didn't imply Brygi/Phrygians are associated with E-V13, i said there is glimpses that potentially Phrygians might have been pushed to Anatolia from Eastern Balkans during LBA-EIA transition.

[Riverman]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges

It is pretty obvious that Illyrians and Thracians both pushed Brygi and Paeonians. While the Brygi can't possibly be associated with E-V13, the status of Paeonians is less obvious. Oftentimes its not even clear whether a tribe was Thracian, Paeonian or Brygi to begin with. The sources on those people are relatively scarce, yet they don't look to me like being associated with E-V13 generally speaking.

I was quite clear in my post, i didn't imply Brygi/Phrygians are associated with E-V13, i said there is glimpses that potentially Phrygians might have been pushed to Anatolia from Eastern Balkans during LBA-EIA transition.

I know you didn't imply so, just wanted to point it out for the general audience

However, the other point I made was rather about the Brygi being usually considered more at home further to the West in the Central Balkans. Probbly forming a substrate for some of the Southern Illyrians?

[Qrts]

Coords for the E-M35 individuals from the Tisza region study, most of whom are E-V13. There's even an E-V65 individual but his coords weren't published.

Code:

HungaryUpperTisza_AvarPeriod:HNJ025,0.129758,0.14319,0.039598,0.008721,0.041546,0.001116,0.0047,0.000462,-0.000614,0.014214,0.001299,0.008243,-0.00996,-0.007982,-0.003257,0.007292,-0.002086,-0.000253,0.012067,-0.006378,0.000374,0.005688,-0.011462,0.006507,0.002515
HungaryDTI_AvarPeriod:KUP021,0.0097,0.008,0.0085,-0.0048,0.0051,-0.0047,0.0046,0.0003,0.0066,0.0073,0.001,0.0033,-0.0076,-0.0064,-0.0069,-0.0006,0.0109,0.0002,0.0038,-0.0066,0.0002,-0.0002,0.0053,-0.0061,0.0019
HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod:RKF200,0.0107,0.0155,0.0008,-0.0154,0.0062,-0.0064,0.0035,0.0025,0.004,0.0163,0.0051,0.0025,-0.0133,-0.0035,-0.0133,-0.003,0.0014,-0.0017,0.0071,-0.0104,-0.0097,0.0071,-0.0011,0.0022,-0.0053
HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod:RKF137,0.0112,0.0158,0.001,-0.0125,0.0099,-0.0053,0.0014,0.0001,0.0036,0.0205,-0.0037,0.003,-0.0119,0.0135,-0.0198,-0.0086,-0.0024,-0.0014,0.0044,-0.0095,-0.0068,0.004,-0.0083,0.0005,-0.0034
HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod:RKF115,0.0112,0.0145,0.002,-0.0131,0.0046,-0.0072,0.0016,0.0013,-0.0041,0.0117,0.0007,0.0003,-0.008,-0.0018,-0.0155,-0.0035,0.008,0.0011,0.0066,0.0027,-0.0057,0.0004,0.0028,0.0026,-0.0052
HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod:RKF027,0.0108,0.0116,0.0055,-0.0063,0.0083,-0.0012,0.0013,0.0045,-0.0002,0.0091,-0.0063,0.0035,-0.0093,-0.0027,-0.0097,0.0045,0.0127,-0.0025,0.0043,-0.0016,-0.0089,0.0019,0.0008,0.0037,0.0008
HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod:RKF223,0.105855,-0.016248,0.022627,-0.011628,-0.016311,-0.019243,0.003995,0.006,-0.006954,0.002734,-0.01429,-0.000599,0.003271,-0.005092,0.004614,0.001724,0.001434,0.00038,-0.001508,0.002626,-0.002121,0.002473,-0.008258,0.002771,0.006347
HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod:RKC041,0.120652,0.147252,0.015839,-0.024871,0.022158,-0.002789,-0.00094,0.002077,0.010635,0.030433,-0.003085,0.004346,-0.001041,0.005367,-0.013843,-0.016574,-0.005476,-0.001647,0.007039,-0.001876,-0.000499,0.004822,-0.001356,0.001446,0.001557
HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod:RKF026,0.120652,0.102568,0.029415,-0.010336,0.024312,-0.010598,0.00188,0.000923,0.007158,0.021686,0,0.003597,-0.007284,-0.005505,-0.007872,-0.009679,-0.000913,-0.002787,0.006411,-0.002501,-0.010731,0.008656,-0.00037,-0.004579,-0.004431
HungaryMiddleTisza_AvarPeriod:RKC003,0.0106,0.0107,0.0075,-0.0007,0.0055,-0.0009,0.0002,0.0037,0.0034,0.0076,0.0004,0.0047,-0.0014,0.0019,-0.0071,0.0006,0.0002,0.0051,0.0068,0.0051,-0.0042,-0.0013,0.0036,0.0013,-0.0042
HungaryMiddleTisza_LSarHunP:RKO016,0.12862,0.122879,0.044877,0.020026,0.023389,0.01255,0.00235,0.003923,-0.004909,0.006014,0.005034,0.003297,-0.000149,-0.004129,0.000543,0.001856,0.002477,0.004307,0.000251,0.003126,-0.004617,-0.001731,0.00493,0.011086,-0.000838

[Dreneu]

Some supposedly new samples from the Tisza region, mostly from the Avar period:
https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...9#pid17119

Theytree assignments:
https://www.theytree.com/portal/index/sa...ommunities

14 E1b1b/E-V13 samples. Those more downstream are E-CTS9320, E-S2979, E-L241 and E-Y150909. No idea whether are are completely new samples, but they come from this paper:

Network of large pedigrees reveals social practices of Avar communities

From 567/68 CE, the onset of the Avar period, populations from the Eurasian Steppe settled in the Carpathian Basin for approximately 250 years. An extensive sampling for archaeogenomics (424 individuals) and isotopes, combined with archaeological, anthropological, and historical contextualization on four Avar-period cemeteries, allowed for a detailed description of the genomic structure of these communities and their kinship and social practices. We present the largest set of pedigrees reconstructed so far through aDNA, spanning over 9 generations comprising ~300 individuals. We uncover a strict patrilineal kinship system, where patrilocality and female exogamy were the norm and multiple reproductive partnering and levirate unions were commonly practiced. The absence of consanguinity indicates this society maintained a detailed memory of ancestry over generations. These kinship practices correspond to the evidence of historical sources and anthropological research on Eurasian Steppe societies. Novel network analyses of identity-by-descent DNA connections suggest social cohesion between communities was maintained via females. Finally, despite the absence of major ancestry shifts, the level of resolution reached by our analyses allowed us to detect genetic discontinuity: the replacement of a community at one of the studied sites. This was paralleled with changes in the archaeological record and was likely due to local political realignment.

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB72021

The majority looks pretty Southern/South Eastern, but they vary, some have East-Central Asian ancestry as well.

Do we know yet which of these 14 are confirmed E-V13, and which are new?

[corrigendum]

I'm also looking forward to this paper I posted about before:

CONTRASTING GENETIC IMPACTS OF EASTERN MIGRANTS ON EARLY IRON AGE COMMUNITIES IN HUNGARY AND TRANSYLVANIA

Luka Papac1, Mariana Egri2, Angela Mötsch1, Thiseas Lamnidis1, Szilárd Gál3, Aurel Rustoiu2, Stephan Schiffels1

1 Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany.
2 Institute of Archaeology and Art History, Cluj-Napoca, Romania.
3 Mureş County Museum, Târgu Mureş, Romania.

Ancient DNA from Iron Age nomads across the Eurasian steppe, including individuals from “Scythian” contexts, has revealed their varied genetic origins and high genetic diversity. However, little is known about their genetic impact and legacy on European communities. By analysing genomes of “Scythian” Age individuals from Transylvania (n=67, unpublished) and Hungary (n=7, previously published), we find ~40% eastern admixture in Transylvania but 0% in Hungary. In contrast to the trans-Eurasian migrations to the Pannonian Basin in the Avar period, the eastern ancestry in Transylvanian “Scythians” largely came from “Scythian” communities in neighbouring Moldova and Ukraine, which admixed into the pre-existing Balkan genetic substratum. In addition to eastern ancestry, we find multiple genetic outlier individuals from central/northern Europe and southern Balkans buried in “Scythian” contexts, implying a dynamic admixture process associated with the formation of these “Scythian” communities. From Transylvania, we reconstruct several families from “Scythian” burial contexts up to three generations deep, most consisting of members with and without eastern ancestry, documenting real-time admixture between locals and eastern migrants. Among these is also a case of siblings buried 11km apart. However, this eastern ancestry did not persist after the “Scythian” period, with subsequent “Celtic” Age associated individuals (n=6) carrying primarily the pre-existing local ancestry with limited evidence of additional central European or eastern gene flow.

This completely debunks the idea of the "Balkan ancestry" spreading only in the Roman era North of the Danube and it proves, what I have been saying all along, that the local ancestry persisted during the Scythian, Celtic and Sarmatian period in the East Carpathians. There can be little doubt that this local (mostly Dacian) element will yield E-V13.

By analysing genomes of “Scythian” Age individuals from Transylvania (n=67, unpublished) and Hungary (n=7, previously published), we find ~40% eastern admixture in Transylvania but 0% in Hungary. In contrast to the trans-Eurasian migrations to the Pannonian Basin in the Avar period, the eastern ancestry in Transylvanian “Scythians” largely came from “Scythian” communities in neighbouring Moldova and Ukraine, which admixed into the pre-existing Balkan genetic substratum.

Local ancestry did persist and there was no actual Scythian admixture in "Scythian" period, eastern Hungary but this profile is unrelated to typical, E-V13 profiles:

From the MBA to the end of the Scythian period, eastern Hungary had a single core profile: