E-V13 - Theories on its Origin and New Data

[Riverman]

We don't have the G25 coordinates of all the E-V13 samples. And the Himerans are not that far removed but clearly a diffrent people, since how many IA Croatian-like E-V13 do we have? And there we get 3 in Himera? Not by chance.

That's just the gradient from the Northern ot the South Eastern Balkans. I wonder what your arguments will be once we get Basarabi samples...

[corrigendum]

We don't have the G25 coordinates of all the E-V13 samples. And the Himerans are not that far removed but clearly a diffrent people, since how many IA Croatian-like E-V13 do we have? And there we get 3 in Himera? Not by chance.

That's just the gradient from the Northern ot the South Eastern Balkans. I wonder what your arguments will be once we get Basarabi samples...

This is exactly what I replied to you here: https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...274#pid274 in relation to the supposed "Carpath-Balkan" cline.

Hence you didn't post an argument which is opposed to what I've written. I didn't claim that the E-V13 from Himera necessarily come from IA Croatia but that they likely come from somewhere in the west-central Balkans which is exactly what the argument that this is "just the gradient from the Northern to the South Eastern Balkans" highlights. This is not a counter-argument to what I wrote, it's an affirmation that they come from the Balkans.

I don't know what the Basarabi samples from its core area (Wallachia) will look like but I certainly look forward to it. I think that they'll be substantially differentiated from Balkan profiles, especially if they are related to any of the proposed ancestral archaeological cultures of the LBA (including Gava-Holihrady)

[Riverman]

We don't have the G25 coordinates of all the E-V13 samples. And the Himerans are not that far removed but clearly a diffrent people, since how many IA Croatian-like E-V13 do we have? And there we get 3 in Himera? Not by chance.

That's just the gradient from the Northern ot the South Eastern Balkans. I wonder what your arguments will be once we get Basarabi samples...

This is exactly what I replied to you here: https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...274#pid274 in relation to the supposed "Carpath-Balkan" cline.

Hence you didn't post an argument which is opposed to what I've written. I didn't claim that the E-V13 from Himera necessarily come from IA Croatia but that they likely come from somewhere in the west-central Balkans which is exactly what the argument that this is "just the gradient from the Northern to the South Eastern Balkans" highlights. This is not a counter-argument to what I wrote, it's an affirmation that they come from the Balkans.

I don't know what the Basarabi samples from its core area (Wallachia) will look like but I certainly look forward to it. I think that they'll be substantially differentiated from Balkan profiles, especially if they are related to any of the proposed ancestral archaeological cultures of the LBA (including Gava-Holihrady)

Why so? You simply can draw a line from:
Kyjatice/Western fringe Gáva -> Mezocsat-Gáva -> Vekerzug-Chotin -> Himera -> La Tene outlier-Moldova Scy197 -> post-Psenichevo-Svilengrad & Co.

If we would get Greco-Thracian and Anatolian Thracian samples, they likely would continue the trend towards the South East.

A superficial similarity won't prove a lot. If you read what I wrote before, even Nyirseg is a culture with Vucedol-Cotofeni influences. The West Pannonian ancestors of Encrusted Pottery were differentiated, so were the East Carpathian groups. Its possible that core Gáva had even less WHG than say Mezocsat-Gáva, which are from a Western fringe zone, or the Vekerzug-Chotin individual. We don't know without their remains being tested.

But even if they were like Mezocsat-Gáva, surely not more Kyjatice shifted, the line can be drawn.

[Strabo]

Probably a mix of middle danube Cruceni Belegis migrants who migrated east (similar to those that founded Khishinau-Corlateni) + southern "stamped pottery", then later possibly more mixing with more middle danube Bosut (I believe Basarabi spread west of Iron Gates, but did not originate west of them) who may have more northern "Tisza" like ancestry. And some I2 stragglers here and there?

I don't know what the Basarabi samples from its core area (Wallachia) will look like but I certainly look forward to it. I think that they'll be substantially differentiated from Balkan profiles, especially if they are related to any of the proposed ancestral archaeological cultures of the LBA (including Gava-Holihrady)

[Strabo]

and it's certainly not related to any Celtic-like profile. 

Just out of curiosity, What does a (proto) Celtic-like profile look like in your opinion?

[Strabo]

I dont think Komorav or those Ukraine forest-steppe cultures were 'Thracians', although they were indeed from the Carpathian basin. The Getae expanded into eastern Romania and Moldova only from 450 BC and they came from the Lower Danube.

Komarov culture was iirc, largely the basis for later Belogrudskaya and Chernoles. What happened to the pre Komarov non Balto Slavic population, I dont know. Komarov comes from eastern Trzceniec (TCC). It is separate from Forest Zone Sosnitsa which I believe to be the location/origin of proto slavic in one or more of the southern sub groups, and proto Baltic in one or more in the northern subgroups. Afaik Komarov is derived directly from an older Sosnitsa.

If you meant to say that late/post Komarov groups covering almost entire right bank forest steppe ukraine fell into the influence of the "eastern Hallstat sphere" based on migrants/influences moving from middle danube and transylvania (Khishinau Korlateni, Belozerka? Holihrady Granicesti etc). However, at a later timeframe I've encountered some (older) articles that place Chernoles culture as the northern most part of the stamped pottery horizon. So massive a stamped pottery horizon going from south Bulgaria almost to right bank west Ukraine. Though more recent papers seem to exclude Chernoles. 

The Noua-Sabatinivka-Cosloegni link is interesting, especially considering they are supposed to have mixed a lot with locals, i.e. Noua-Monteoru synthesis. Interesting to note that iirc Costisha culture, which I mentioned before, a couple authors place within the Komarov culture, its area seems to have overlapped quite a bit with Monteoru iirc. In any case the Noua culture (and presumably the later Noua-Monteoru synthesis)  seems to have stretched far to the north into Costisha territory. Could Noua, and by extention some Sabatonovka-Coslogeni groups adopted a "local language" and brought into Bulgaria?

Baltic by its conservative nature is going to share apparent links with languages. But there might be real connections - deep affinities and later convergences.

Some deep links might be related to the R1a link between R1a-Z280 in balto-Slavic and R1a-Z93 (alongside R1a-Z2103 and some Carpathian branhes of I2a) in Babino-KMK-Noua-Sabatinivka circle which existed between 2200 and 1200 BC in the western steppe and would episodically move toward the East Balkans. 

The only real evidence I have for the Thracian-Baltic connections is this paper.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...l_new_look

 I think it was released early 2022 and before the paper on IE languages was released in late 2022. The author makes the case for Thracian-Baltic, but at the same time does not hesitate to separate Albanian from Illyrian, which we now know is tosh, perhaps due lack of more up to date genetic-linguisitc data. He goes through various proposed branch or macro branch relationships for Thracian with other IE languages. He goes on to say:

Other than Mayer (1992, 1993, 1996, 1997), who considers the TLs to be “Baltoidic” or even, perhaps prematurely, “South Baltic” languages, the Thraco-Baltic hypothesis has also been accepted by Katičić (1976:147), Rădulescu (1984:82-85), Hamp (1990), Holst (2009:22, 52, 66-67) and indirectly by West (2007:7) and others.31 The Thraco-Baltic hypothesis has careful argumentation on its side and perhaps indicates not just a macro-branch, but also a branch-level relationship with the TLs, as is clear from a quantitative overview of the isoglosses that exist between the TLs and other IE branches (Duridanov 1969:87-96). If that is so, then the TLs, just like the Baltic, Slavic, Germanic and other IE branches, belong to the IE ΙΙΙΒ branch (cf. Note 11 and Sections 2.1, 2.2 and 2.10).

so I gather that opens the way for a "BaltoSlavic-Thracian" grouping rather than Thracian placed within Balto Slavic, in which case the Komarov theory is destroyed. Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't Babino-KMK originate from migrants from the middle dnieper going to the south/east?

One thing that puzzles me is the seeming lack of Thracian Slavic connections (although some disagree). Maybe then Thracian-Baltic predates proto slavic and we should actually call it Thracian-Proto Baltic Slavic connections if Baltic is more "archaic"/conservative than slavic, and Slavic is a south baltic dialect that broke away.

He also puts proto thracians(s) in the EBA so I guess we have to look at pre Komarov time (say pre 1500BC) for the disintegration of Balto-Thracian?

He also says this

Positive findings also exist for Greek-Baltic hydronyms (Dini 2014:245), but in Greece linguistics experts who know the Baltic languages or who are interested in searching for relationships between Greeks and other European peoples are rare. An Illyrian origin or relationship for Albanian would necessarily pass through its relationship with Baltic languages due to the confirmed isoglosses that it shares with them. Then, if Illyrian were a satem language, it would be related at the macrobranch level with the Baltic languages (Jokl 1926:45; Krahe 1954:104, 1956; Toporov 1964), and therefore the Thraco-Illyrian hypothesis would be supported.24

So I think that means "Balto-Thracian" > 
                                                          "Thraco-Illyric" >
                                                                                   Proto Thracian
                                                                                   Proto Illyric

                                                            Proto Balto Slavic > 
                                                                                    Proto Baltic
                                                                                    Proto Slavic

[PopGenist82]

@ Strabo

Mayer is Baltic nationalist nutcase. His theories are pseudoscience

[Strabo]

@ Strabo

Mayer is Baltic nationalist nutcase. His theories are pseudoscience

Ok. So what is alternative?

[PopGenist82]

@ Strabo

Mayer is Baltic nationalist nutcase. His theories are pseudoscience

Ok. So what is alternative?

The alternative is to wait for a complete dataset from LBA-IA “Thrace” and back-construct their population affinity and how it relates to other IE groups. 

(Note Meyer’s tone. He was obviously projecting his political ideology in his “theories”).

[Strabo]

@ Strabo

Mayer is Baltic nationalist nutcase. His theories are pseudoscience

Ok. So what is alternative?

The alternative is to wait for a complete dataset from LBA-IA “Thrace” and back-construct their population affinity and how it relates to other IE groups. 

(Note Meyer’s tone. He was obviously projecting his political ideology in his “theories”).

But the article was written by Krimpas, not Mayer

[Riverman]

Chernoles has very clearly Channelled-Stamped pottery influences. It is highly likely that at least some E-V13 was present in this rather mixed group.
But its of course different from e.g. Chisinau-Corlateni which is a sure and important candidate.

As for Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni, Monteoru is out, different group, more closely related to Encrusted Pottery people.

Noua was however the result of steppe pastoralists from Sabatinovka going into the Eastern Carpathian basin, where Wietenberg lived before.
How much of Wietenberg, group closely related to Suciu de Sus and other Carpatho-Balkan cremating groups survived the conquest by Sabatinovka into Noua-Coslogeni is still part of the mainstream discourse.

[PopGenist82]

@ Riverman

Which study/ sample was the E-V13 “Scythian” ? krzewinska et al?

[Riverman]

@ Riverman

Which study/ sample was the E-V13 “Scythian” ? krzewinska et al?

Link: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aat4457

[Strabo]

As for Noua-Sabatinovka-Coslogeni, Monteoru is out, different group, more closely related to Encrusted Pottery people.

So in your opinion what is meant by Noua-Monteoru phase or group? The name clearly implies mixing and not total replacement of locals.

[corrigendum]

@ Riverman

Which study/ sample was the E-V13 “Scythian” ? krzewinska et al?

Link: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.aat4457

The "Scythian" label in this case simply refers to the archaeological context. The sample itself is not Scythian and there were multiple issues with RC dating, so we don't even know when exactly he lived (For all but two samples (scy192 and scy197), reliable results were obtained).

The study placed him and a few other samples in a "southern" cluster:
(ii) A group of four individuals (scy192, scy197, scy300, and scy305) showed genetic similarities to southern European populations, hereafter referred to as a south European (SE) cluster.

Distance to: Moldova_Glinoe_Scythian.SGcy197_noUDG.SG
0.02884961 Italy_PalazzoDellaCancelleria_Roman_Medieval_possible.SG
0.03118163 Germany_EMedieval_Alemanic_SEurope
0.03182568 Serbia_SvilosKrussevlje_Roman.SG
0.03246806 Italy_IA_Republic_o.SG
0.03247004 Croatia_BA
0.03250434 Croatia_Tilurium_Roman.SG
0.03281447 Slovenia_Emona_Roman.SG
0.03474736 Hungary_MidAvar
0.03489719 Italy_Lazio_Viterbo_EarlyMedieval
0.03512358 Albania_BA_IA
0.03536560 Croatia_Sipar_Roman.SG
0.03554611 Serbia_Mokrin_EBA_Maros_oAegean.SG
0.03557437 Hungary_Langobard_o1.SG
0.03602107 Montenegro_Doclea_Roman_oAegean.SG
0.03620621 Hungary_Langobard_o1
0.03692352 Greece_Logkas_MBA.SG
0.03730183 Croatia_Zadar_Roman.SG
0.03732477 Italy_Tuscany_Siena_EarlyMedieval
0.03746211 Italy_Tuscany_Grosseto_EarlyMedieval
0.03801110 Croatia_MBA_Cetina
0.03832946 Croatia_SisakPogorelec_Roman.SG
0.03842270 Hungary_EarlyMidAvar
0.03858635 Macedonia_IA
0.03908070 Germany_EarlyMedieval_o1.SG
0.03949223 Montenegro_MLBA