E-V13 - Theories on its Origin and New Data

[Riverman]

I am gonna make a prediction or speculation which may or may not be correct.

Since we see splinter groups during Chalcolithic as far north as Ukraince between North/Eastern Carpathians and Podilsky Upland and south to Late Chalcolithic North Balkans Culture but not to their authentic material culture. I predict core E-V13 group was residing in what is called Criș culture deep in Transylvania/Carpathians.

Two specific attributes to them:

1. High altitude herding
2. Metal-working pioneering in Late Chalcolithic

Why am i speculating this?

It looks like these guys have leaks, the culture which expanded on Eastern Carpathians and brought to the pre PIE people cattle herding and some wanderwords like number 7/seven and the etymology of cow and tauros/tawros (Rasmus Bjorn hypothesis) was the Criș Culture. David Anthony specifically mention this in his The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World about the Criș Culture.

Moreover Criș Culture connects both these Eastern Carpathian Neolithic herders and Chalcolithic Balkan Cultures.

That's also what makes Petresti and Tripolye-Cucuteni quite interesting, because both of these had direct connections to new colonists from the South, from the Balkans, as well. That's the funny part about it, for some of these lineages the Carpathian basin and its vicinity was a better contact point and later refuge than the Balkans. Because the Balkans as such became completely changed and overrun in the subsequent periods. Multiple times.

[Riverman]

Beside E-S3003, there are other Slavic founder branches, like this one:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...56265/tree

All current members are from Russia and Lithuania. The first branching event is in the 1st century AD and a clear Baltoslavic branching takes place right when the Slavs expanded, between 600-700 AD.

The whole upstream branch has a rather Eastern distribution, with at least two clearly Slavic associated branches:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...11444/tree
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-ZS1176/

Quite typically, the ancient DNA samples from the upstream branch come from Eastern Hungary, the Transtisza zone, from Hajdu-Bihar, an old Gáva into Dacian core zone:


A likely connection is through the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subcarpathian_Voivodeship

With Polish samples from there as well. The Subcarpathian region was a likely hotspot of E-V13 in the late Bronze to Iron Age and being reasonably close to both the Transtisza region and the early Slavs to connect the dots. Also a transmission onto the steppe was a possibility.

Therefore E-S3003 is definitely not alone in its spread among early Slavs. That kind of pattern in rather badly tested Russians can only come about with an early presence within the Slavic tribespeople. The whole distribution of the branch E-FGC11444 looks currently rather Slavic and Celto-Germanic, so definitely Northern. A starting point from the area between Transtisza and the North Carpathians makes the most sense.

Globetrekker puts it currently into Central-Eastern Slovakia and upstream E-FGC11444 into Silesia:

The earlier path is nonsense due to Western overtesting, but the North - South positioning and the rough positioning of E-FGC11444 is probably about right, just still a bit too Western most likely.



And of course E-FGC11444 falls under one of the main expansive branches which being so common in Hungarian ancient remains and spread up to China, which is E-S2979 under E-Z5018.

This one largely stayed in Europe, but the distribution makes an early entry point of some of its branches highly likely.

[Riverman]

A Hungarian scholar used SNP's to track back the Hunyadi family:

The administrator of the Hungarian FTDNA project recently managed to come to the conclusion, that the highly likely ethnic origin of the Hunyadi family originates from a Vlach family that lived in Bulgaria in the 12th century. This is the strength of ancient DNA studies, that we can finally settle old historical disputes with the power of science.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amZpglxNgXo&t=6s

Around minute 30:00 you see a table which addresses the upstream branches, which he considers (most likely) to be Thracian.




Additional hypotheses:





I think that the Afro-Asiatic in Iberia, presumably because of the E-L618/E-V13 from Impresso-Cardial is wrong, because Impresso-Cardial was widespread and came up the Danube and Dniester as well. The Alpine region seems to me, even if E-V13 is clearly associated with Eastern Urnfielders, too Western, and an origin from Cotofeni into Nyirseg, on within Otomani Gyulavarsand into Wietenberg is the most likely option.
But interesting thoughts anyway and what's almost certainly correct is that E-V13 main branches spread with Proto-Thracians/Daco-Thracians and the majority of the South Thracian branches reached Bulgaria in the LBA-EIA, with Urnfields using Thracians, not earlier.

While I completely get the Iberian idea, because of this single sample, I really wonder about the Alpine zone - probably because of Globetrekker from FTDNA putting E-V13 into the Alpine zone? But that's mainly because of overtested Western groups like English and Irish, and undertested ones like Russians, Poles, but especially Ukrainians, Romanians and Moldovans.

in the slide at minute 36:00 he looks forward to testing Thracian royal tombs. That's still a desideratum and not done yet (?), unfortunately.

[Ioas]

A Hungarian scholar used SNP's to track back the Hunyadi family:

The administrator of the Hungarian FTDNA project recently managed to come to the conclusion, that the highly likely ethnic origin of the Hunyadi family originates from a Vlach family that lived in Bulgaria in the 12th century. This is the strength of ancient DNA studies, that we can finally settle old historical disputes with the power of science.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amZpglxNgXo&t=6s

Around minute 30:00 you see a table which addresses the upstream branches, which he considers (most likely) to be Thracian.




Additional hypotheses:





I think that the Afro-Asiatic in Iberia, presumably because of the E-L618/E-V13 from Impresso-Cardial is wrong, because Impresso-Cardial was widespread and came up the Danube and Dniester as well. The Alpine region seems to me, even if E-V13 is clearly associated with Eastern Urnfielders, too Western, and an origin from Cotofeni into Nyirseg, on within Otomani Gyulavarsand into Wietenberg is the most likely option.
But interesting thoughts anyway and what's almost certainly correct is that E-V13 main branches spread with Proto-Thracians/Daco-Thracians and the majority of the South Thracian branches reached Bulgaria in the LBA-EIA, with Urnfields using Thracians, not earlier.

While I completely get the Iberian idea, because of this single sample, I really wonder about the Alpine zone - probably because of Globetrekker from FTDNA putting E-V13 into the Alpine zone? But that's mainly because of overtested Western groups like English and Irish, and undertested ones like Russians, Poles, but especially Ukrainians, Romanians and Moldovans.

in the slide at minute 36:00 he looks forward to testing Thracian royal tombs. That's still a desideratum and not done yet (?), unfortunately.

The next step is to test the basarabs and asen families! For the basarab family they could test basarab's son Nicolas Alexander. You can visit his grave even today
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas..._Wallachia

[Riverman]

Most of the data was known already, but not all probably and its a good reminder anyway. Presentation on the Carpathian basin population history:

More videos: http://www.youtube.com/@instituteofarchaeogenomics2850

Here are some highlights. First, the highest rate of E-V13 is completely unrelated to the frequency of J and appears in the North East, closer to the Upper Tisza area, in the sample from Bodrogköz:


It is about 10 % in a sample of more than 147 individuals. This is also interesting because there is definitely a relative hotspot for E-V13 frequency and diversity in Eastern Slovakia and especially Transcarpathia:





The other slide of interest is the chronological comparison, which shows how consistently E-V13 pops up as the only "Southern-Central European" lineage, whereas others don't do so as regularly:




Just like in Bodrogköz, there is absoluteley no clear correlation of E-V13 with J-L283, obiovusly. Celto-Germanic I1 and R1b appear more regularly beside E-V13 by comparison. And this is not a small sample very prone to founder events, but a fairly representative sampling from many sites.

SzF-avar, with the peak of E-V13 is supposed to be:

At 7:20 of the third video a sample group being named SzFAvar, the first one, nearly fully E-V13, what does this site or time period refer to? Obviously Avar period, but anything more specific?

Székesfehérvár and its surroundings, 6-9th century.

Which is also interesting, because that's a site from Central Hungary. But that sample is small and prone to bias, because of sampling a clan or something like that.

https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9ke...9rv%C3%A1r

On another slide they also mention that South Eastern Romania, like espected, reaches about 20 % E-V13.

[Riverman]

By the way, talking about ethnic Romanians, I see a fairly strong presence to dominance of E-CTS9320, which, together with the general distribution and ancient DNA, kind of supports the presence around the Danube. YFull is rather insufficient on the matter, but on FTDNA are a couple of BigY tested Romanians, Moldovans and Hungarians, plus STR tested individuals with the right prediction. All in all, E-CTS9320 looks like having been along the Middle to Lower Danube between South Eastern Hungary, Northern Serbia and especially Southern Romania to North Western Bulgaria.

I think we can even deduce from the observable pattern in ancients and moderns, that some kind of tribal or clan based population with a lot of E-CTS9320, among them possibly the Triballi people of Antiquity, lived, and North of them were likely other groups which had different main branches of E-Z5017 and especially E-Z5018, like E-Y3183, E-FGC11457 and E-L241.

Actually do think that we deal with a fairly compact North Thracian/Dacian populations which were at least relatively dominated by these clans of E-CTS9320, E-Y3183, E-FGC11457 and E-L241, of going from South (Danube) to the North (Upper Tisza/Transtisza region).

It is no coincidence that those branches which broke of early by migrating West, East or South primarily, had an overall lower growth rate and are in moderns less widespread than some of the main branches, like those mentioned above. This suggests that those closely related main branches lived in a population or populations, which were
a) dominated by E-V13
b) experienced similar patterns of growth and expansion, which lasted at least well into the Iron Age, up to the Roman period.

The pattern is very obviously significantly different from the earliers splinters, even from those which lived in Thrace. Like we can see the very different trajectory of the South Thracian branches, like:
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...68911/tree

That's one of the few known and proven South Thracian samples with a downstream assignment and look where he ends up! Its a very old branch, dating back to the Transitional Period, when the Proto-Thracian E-V13 came South from the Carpathian cremation block, around 1.300-1.200 BC and it barely survived, just 4 modern samples!

Contrast that with some of the above mentioned main branches, which have roughly about the same age. Their demographic history and growth and survival rate was completely different. And that's not the result of chance alone, because its true for many of these branches, especially those under E-S2979 or E-CTS9320. 

All in all the development of the clearly South Thracian branches looks pretty different from those of the North/West, suggesting separate trends up to the Roman era, presumably because of the later being very clearly associated with North Thracians and Dacians between the Danube and Northern Carpathian mountain range for the most part.

I add a map which shows some of the speculative positions, centres for the respective haplogroups, in the Middle to later Iron Age:



Its not meant to be exact, but as a tendency, to show some trends I'm assuming based on the currently available data. All in all, the South Thracian contribution from the Middle to later Iron Age, was, in my opinion, not as strong as the North Thracian/Dacian one. We might deal with a ratio of 1:3 for South vs. North Thracian survival in moderns.

[Southpaw]

A documentary in French with English subtitles about Thracians: https://youtu.be/qdL_UahZQ9k?si=d1zL6rBZzwnmF_x7&t=1330

The archaeologist notes that the tomb of Seuthes is extraordinary, double the size of Philip the II tomb, not Pharaonic monument but almost Pharaonic.

Also in the video we learn the name of the Thracian artist behind the paintings in Alexandrovo Tomb: Kodzimases Hrestos, Kodzimases the Master.

[Southpaw]

Someone in yfull is being processed at the root of E-V13 split alongside the German: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

I wonder which country he will result to be?

[Riverman]

Someone in yfull is being processed at the root of E-V13 split alongside the German: https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-V13/

I wonder which country he will result to be?

We can just hope he pays and/or provides some information, at least a flag.