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Hungarian Discussion Thread
#1
Since there seem to be plenty of updates coming out of Hungary in recent years, from archeological to historical and genetics fields, I thought we should have a thread where we can share more easily what new things are being published, or simply to have a thread where we can speculate about various things regarding Hungary and Hungarians.

As an interesting insight, it came to my knowledge that the vast project on which the Institute of Hungarian Research has embarked on, to analyze Modern Hungarians from mainly Hungary but also from around the Carpathian Basin has finished the laboratory part, and now should be ready for being submitted to publication in a scientific journal. I couldn't find out much details but apparently around 3% of paternal haplogroups belong to N1c, while around 2% to Q, which is way more than the figures seen on Eupedia (0 and 0.5% respectively). I would still be cautious regarding these preliminary results and still would rather wait for the official publication.
Jaska, Ioas, leonardo And 2 others like this post
Ancient (Davidski's G25)
1. Western Steppe Herder 47.2%
2. Early European Farmer 39%
3. Western Hunter-Gatherer 11.6%
4. Han 2.2%

Modern (G25)
1. Austrian 64%
2. Kuban Cossack 23.4%
3. Kabardian 6.6%
4. Crimean Tatar 3.2%
5. Hungarian 2.8%
Reply
#2
Do you have any idea about the percentage of E-V13? Will the raw data be published and being accessible to e.g. FTDNA and YFull like the large Sardinian or Turkish samples?
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#3
(11-07-2023, 06:12 PM)Riverman Wrote: Do you have any idea about the percentage of E-V13? Will the raw data be published and being accessible to e.g. FTDNA and YFull like the large Sardinian or Turkish samples?

From what I heard it will definitely be published on YFull but apparently FTDNA aren't accepting external uploads (even though they have the far larger database and would be really great to have the results there too). The initial intention was to have 1000 whole genome sequenced individuals, from every county and additionally from Hungarians living in neighboring countries, but apparently the funds dried up and probably won't reach this figure. But still there should be hundreds of brand new fully sequenced individuals from Hungary, which is way-way more than what we have today.
Riverman likes this post
Ancient (Davidski's G25)
1. Western Steppe Herder 47.2%
2. Early European Farmer 39%
3. Western Hunter-Gatherer 11.6%
4. Han 2.2%

Modern (G25)
1. Austrian 64%
2. Kuban Cossack 23.4%
3. Kabardian 6.6%
4. Crimean Tatar 3.2%
5. Hungarian 2.8%
Reply
#4
(11-07-2023, 06:09 PM)Mythbuster General Wrote: Since there seem to be plenty of updates coming out of Hungary in recent years, from archeological to historical and genetics fields, I thought we should have a thread where we can share more easily what new things are being published, or simply to have a thread where we can speculate about various things regarding Hungary and Hungarians.

As an interesting insight, it came to my knowledge that the vast project on which the Institute of Hungarian Research has embarked on, to analyze Modern Hungarians from mainly Hungary but also from around the Carpathian Basin has finished the laboratory part, and now should be ready for being submitted to publication in a scientific journal. I couldn't find out much details but apparently around 3% of paternal haplogroups belong to N1c, while around 2% to Q, which is way more than the figures seen on Eupedia (0 and 0.5% respectively). I would still be cautious regarding these preliminary results and still would rather wait for the official publication.

(11-07-2023, 06:19 PM)Mythbuster General Wrote:
(11-07-2023, 06:12 PM)Riverman Wrote: Do you have any idea about the percentage of E-V13? Will the raw data be published and being accessible to e.g. FTDNA and YFull like the large Sardinian or Turkish samples?

From what I heard it will definitely be published on YFull but apparently FTDNA aren't accepting external uploads (even though they have the far larger database and would be really great to have the results there too). The initial intention was to have 1000 whole genome sequenced individuals, from every county and additionally from Hungarians living in neighboring countries, but apparently the funds dried up and probably won't reach this figure. But still there should be hundreds of brand new fully sequenced individuals from Hungary, which is way-way more than what we have today.

FTDNA would use it if they can get it probably. It might double the number of E-V13 tested individuals from Hungary is its possible.
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#5
Preliminary and first-time results of Magyar Conquerors from Etelköz, the previous home of the Magyars before moving into the Carpathian Basin:

[Image: 4786173?dpr=2&fit=max&h=864&w=590]
Alain, Jaska, leonardo And 1 others like this post
Ancient (Davidski's G25)
1. Western Steppe Herder 47.2%
2. Early European Farmer 39%
3. Western Hunter-Gatherer 11.6%
4. Han 2.2%

Modern (G25)
1. Austrian 64%
2. Kuban Cossack 23.4%
3. Kabardian 6.6%
4. Crimean Tatar 3.2%
5. Hungarian 2.8%
Reply
#6
Looking at your graph from the abstracts thread:
https://www.familytreedna.com/social-pho...=834&w=590

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...33#pid3433

Its truly astonishing and destatating for my primary research topic for the Carpathian Basin Iron Age, the Dacians and E-V13 distribution, that again and again the same core zone being nearly completely missed from the sampling record:

[Image: Empty-Zone.jpg]

That zoen is the likely core zone for E-V13/Daco-Thracians since the LBA the latest, if not earlier, and remained such for short interruptions (like the Scythian group in Transylvania or the Celtic push in some areas). Yet even those short interruptions did just replace them in some, limited areas of that zone, not in any large portion of it completely.

Also looking at the results, its pretty clear that this zone has to have a higher E-V13 frequency than the areas to the West and East, which got tested.

I know they mostly cremated, but there are still some burials, even if just irregulars, left. There are even Scythian and Sarmatian burials, which are not that likely to represent Dacians, from that zone. However, looking at so many paper leaving the exact same zone out again and again is quite frustrating.
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#7
(11-07-2023, 09:16 PM)Riverman Wrote: Looking at your graph from the abstracts thread:
https://www.familytreedna.com/social-pho...=834&w=590

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...33#pid3433

Its truly astonishing and destatating for my primary research topic for the Carpathian Basin Iron Age, the Dacians and E-V13 distribution, that again and again the same core zone being nearly completely missed from the sampling record:

[Image: Empty-Zone.jpg]

That zoen is the likely core zone for E-V13/Daco-Thracians since the LBA the latest, if not earlier, and remained such for short interruptions (like the Scythian group in Transylvania or the Celtic push in some areas). Yet even those short interruptions did just replace them in some, limited areas of that zone, not in any large portion of it completely.

Also looking at the results, its pretty clear that this zone has to have a higher E-V13 frequency than the areas to the West and East, which got tested.

I know they mostly cremated, but there are still some burials, even if just irregulars, left. There are even Scythian and Sarmatian burials, which are not that likely to represent Dacians, from that zone. However, looking at so many paper leaving the exact same zone out again and again is quite frustrating.

I am aware that early Slavic history faces the same problem as early Dacian and Thracian history, because all these people cremated their dead. I am not sure how can scientist circumnavigate this impasse, but I'm sure they will develop solid methods, maybe even using method of exclusion compared to the cultures that they can research from those areas. I am also aware a larger paper will be published about the Gepids of Transylvania. Regarding E-V13 it's still not decided if it has a Balkanic or East-Central European root, most people I read seem to point to a deeper Balkanic root. However I am definitely no expert on such topic.

Also another thing I remembered is that it's not even that surprising that Transylvania looks so empty in ancient DNA research, since from the archeological papers I read about the region it was much more sparsely populated than the Pannonian Plane, especially after the Roman withdrawal and during the Migrations period. There's not much to be found when there weren't too many people living there.
Riverman and leonardo like this post
Ancient (Davidski's G25)
1. Western Steppe Herder 47.2%
2. Early European Farmer 39%
3. Western Hunter-Gatherer 11.6%
4. Han 2.2%

Modern (G25)
1. Austrian 64%
2. Kuban Cossack 23.4%
3. Kabardian 6.6%
4. Crimean Tatar 3.2%
5. Hungarian 2.8%
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#8
I’m also interested in this topic as I’m exploring the possibility that my y dna line in Britain may have arrived via Pannonnians in the Roman Era.

Currently known ancient FGC12378 samples.

R-FGC12378 in Zadar, Croatia in 178 AD
R-FGC47869 in Ibrany, Hungary ~975 AD
R-FGC47869 in Sirmium, Serbia ~1071 AD

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=35
U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401>FGC47875>FGC12384
50% English, 15% Welsh, 15% Scot/Ulster Scot, 5% Irish, 10% German, 2% Scandi, 2% French & Dutch), 1% India
Ancient ~40% Anglo-Saxon, ~40% Briton/Insular Celt, ~15% German, 4% Other Euro
600 AD: 55% Anglo-Saxon (CNE), 45% Pre-Anglo-Saxon Briton (WBI)
“Be more concerned with seeking the truth than winning an argument” 
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#9
(11-08-2023, 11:02 AM)Mythbuster General Wrote:
(11-07-2023, 09:16 PM)Riverman Wrote: Looking at your graph from the abstracts thread:
https://www.familytreedna.com/social-pho...=834&w=590

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...33#pid3433

Its truly astonishing and destatating for my primary research topic for the Carpathian Basin Iron Age, the Dacians and E-V13 distribution, that again and again the same core zone being nearly completely missed from the sampling record:

[Image: Empty-Zone.jpg]

That zoen is the likely core zone for E-V13/Daco-Thracians since the LBA the latest, if not earlier, and remained such for short interruptions (like the Scythian group in Transylvania or the Celtic push in some areas). Yet even those short interruptions did just replace them in some, limited areas of that zone, not in any large portion of it completely.

Also looking at the results, its pretty clear that this zone has to have a higher E-V13 frequency than the areas to the West and East, which got tested.

I know they mostly cremated, but there are still some burials, even if just irregulars, left. There are even Scythian and Sarmatian burials, which are not that likely to represent Dacians, from that zone. However, looking at so many paper leaving the exact same zone out again and again is quite frustrating.

I am aware that early Slavic history faces the same problem as early Dacian and Thracian history, because all these people cremated their dead. I am not sure how can scientist circumnavigate this impasse, but I'm sure they will develop solid methods, maybe even using method of exclusion compared to the cultures that they can research from those areas. I am also aware a larger paper will be published about the Gepids of Transylvania. Regarding E-V13 it's still not decided if it has a Balkanic or East-Central European root, most people I read seem to point to a deeper Balkanic root. However I am definitely no expert on such topic.

Also another thing I remembered is that it's not even that surprising that Transylvania looks so empty in ancient DNA research, since from the archeological papers I read about the region it was much more sparsely populated than the Pannonian Plane, especially after the Roman withdrawal and during the Migrations period. There's not much to be found when there weren't too many people living there.

Well, in the Scythian-Vekerzug and early Sarmatian period, especially in the Northern area there was a Daco-Thracian group of its own, the Sanislau group of the Vekerzug culture. While the Western Vekerzug group was either using more often inhumation, or had biritual cemeteries with largely balanced ratios, the Sanislau group was mostly cremating but had a milnority of inhumation burials.
Yet especially those inhumation burials might be foreigners from elsewhere, especially actual Scythians or Western Vekerzug group people. Further to the North, still in that territory, was the Kustanovice group some consider Proto-Dacian, nearly all cremations and to the South was the Ferigile group, the successor of Basarabi with Sythian influences.
From all these three either no or only outlier and irregular burials can be taken, but there are physical remains which could be tested, even if they might be foreigners or not representative for the majority of Daco-Thracian, cremating people.

They filled most of the "Empty zone" I created, especially in the Scythain period, but the very centre which was occupied by the Transylvanian Scythian group, which was probably the most "actually Scythian" (ethnically) dominated group in the Carpathian basin, which transmitted most of these cultural influences to Vekerzug and Ferigile.

Of course, during the migration period, after even the Goths and Gepids had left, the local continuity was completely shattered and I think a large fraction of the locals had joined the Goths on their treks or were absorbed by the Slavs when they fled to the North or South when the Huns came in.

Kustanovice, Sanislau group and Ferigile were all, in my opinion, both Daco-Thracian and dominated by E-V13 in the Scythian period and the same areas were largely Dacian, more unified, by the time of the Sarmatians.
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#10
The amount of Hungary specific ancient DNA studies that have come out in the past several years is outstanding and leaves other European countries, including ones with much more funding, to shame. I am jealous, but certainly happy for my Hungarian friends.

If Hungarian ancient DNA testing was a sport, Hungary will already have won the last two World Cups!!!
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Paternal: R1b-U152+ L2+ ZZ48+ FGC10543+ PR5365+, Crispino Rocca, b.~1584, Agira, Sicily, Italy
Maternal: Haplogroup H4a1-T152C!, Maria Coto, b.~1864, Galicia, Spain
Mother's Paternal: Haplogroup J1+ FGC4745/FGC4766+ PF5019+, Gerardo Caprio, b.1879, Caposele, Avellino, Campania, Italy
Father's Maternal: Haplogroup T2b-C150T, Francisca Santa Cruz, b.1916, Garganchon, Burgos, Spain
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#11
(11-08-2023, 05:39 PM)R.Rocca Wrote: The amount of Hungary specific ancient DNA studies that have come out in the past several years is outstanding and leaves other European countries, including ones with much more funding, to shame. I am jealous, but certainly happy for my Hungarian friends.

If Hungarian ancient DNA testing was a sport, Hungary will already have won the last two World Cups!!!

I am always so surprised when I talk with Western Europeans about ancient and medieval history and how much lack of interest or even knowledge they have regarding such topics, but talk to a Hungarian and they will immediately have their very own take on the origins of Hungarians. Definitely the one thing everyone has an opinion about, next to football and politics. This huge interest about our past is on the verge of being unhealthy even, in my personal opinion. But at least sometimes cool studies come out of it as a result Big Grin
R.Rocca, Manofthehour, Ioas And 1 others like this post
Ancient (Davidski's G25)
1. Western Steppe Herder 47.2%
2. Early European Farmer 39%
3. Western Hunter-Gatherer 11.6%
4. Han 2.2%

Modern (G25)
1. Austrian 64%
2. Kuban Cossack 23.4%
3. Kabardian 6.6%
4. Crimean Tatar 3.2%
5. Hungarian 2.8%
Reply
#12
(11-08-2023, 05:48 PM)Mythbuster General Wrote:
(11-08-2023, 05:39 PM)R.Rocca Wrote: The amount of Hungary specific ancient DNA studies that have come out in the past several years is outstanding and leaves other European countries, including ones with much more funding, to shame. I am jealous, but certainly happy for my Hungarian friends.

If Hungarian ancient DNA testing was a sport, Hungary will already have won the last two World Cups!!!

I am always so surprised when I talk with Western Europeans about ancient and medieval history and how much lack of interest or even knowledge they have regarding such topics, but talk to a Hungarian and they will immediately have their very own take on the origins of Hungarians. Definitely the one thing everyone has an opinion about, next to football and politics. This huge interest about our past is on the verge of being unhealthy even, in my personal opinion. But at least sometimes cool studies come out of it as a result Big Grin

Dude you Hungarians are lucky.  For us Romanians wait for ancient dna testing is like waiting for Jesus to come back
eastara and R.Rocca like this post
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#13
During the years I kept collecting Y-DNA results from Hungarians from around the internet and I will publish below, to my knowledge, the largest dataset as of yet of Y-DNA distribution among modern Hungarians, numbering 980 individuals. Until the official results will be published by the Institute of Hungarian Research, I believe these are as representative as we can get to:

1. R-M420 (R1a): 28%
2. R-M343 (R1b): 18.5%
3. I-M438 (I2): 17%
4. E-M215 (E1b1b): 9%
5. I-M253 (I1): 7.5%
6. J-M172 (J2): 7.5%
7. G-M201: 4.5%
8. N-M231: 3.5%
9. Q-M242: 1.5%
10. J-M267 (J1): 0.5%
11. T-L206: 0.5%
12. L-M20: 0.5%
13. C-F3393 (C1): 0.5%
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Ancient (Davidski's G25)
1. Western Steppe Herder 47.2%
2. Early European Farmer 39%
3. Western Hunter-Gatherer 11.6%
4. Han 2.2%

Modern (G25)
1. Austrian 64%
2. Kuban Cossack 23.4%
3. Kabardian 6.6%
4. Crimean Tatar 3.2%
5. Hungarian 2.8%
Reply
#14
(11-10-2023, 03:43 PM)Mythbuster General Wrote: During the years I kept collecting Y-DNA results from Hungarians from around the internet and I will publish below, to my knowledge, the largest dataset as of yet of Y-DNA distribution among modern Hungarians, numbering 980 individuals. Until the official results will be published by the Institute of Hungarian Research, I believe these are as representative as we can get to:

1. R-M420 (R1a): 28%
2. R-M343 (R1b): 18.5%
3. I-M438 (I2): 17%
4. E-M215 (E1b1b): 9%
5. I-M253 (I1): 7.5%
6. J-M172 (J2): 7.5%
7. G-M201: 4.5%
8. N-M231: 3.5%
9. Q-M242: 1.5%
10. J-M267 (J1): 0.5%
11. T-L206: 0.5%
12. L-M20: 0.5%
13. C-F3393 (C1): 0.5%

Are skelzky included too ? If so how different are they to the other Hungarians? I know autosomal wise they are the most southern shifted Hungarians
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#15
(11-10-2023, 04:00 PM)Ioas Wrote:
(11-10-2023, 03:43 PM)Mythbuster General Wrote: During the years I kept collecting Y-DNA results from Hungarians from around the internet and I will publish below, to my knowledge, the largest dataset as of yet of Y-DNA distribution among modern Hungarians, numbering 980 individuals. Until the official results will be published by the Institute of Hungarian Research, I believe these are as representative as we can get to:

1. R-M420 (R1a): 28%
2. R-M343 (R1b): 18.5%
3. I-M438 (I2): 17%
4. E-M215 (E1b1b): 9%
5. I-M253 (I1): 7.5%
6. J-M172 (J2): 7.5%
7. G-M201: 4.5%
8. N-M231: 3.5%
9. Q-M242: 1.5%
10. J-M267 (J1): 0.5%
11. T-L206: 0.5%
12. L-M20: 0.5%
13. C-F3393 (C1): 0.5%

Are skelzky included too ? If so  how different are they to the other Hungarians? I know autosomal wise they are the most southern shifted Hungarians

Yes, I included them too. I'd wish I would have wrote down more info regarding the regional identity of all my samples, like I did with the autosomal database that I created for Eurogenes K13 earlier, but my focus wasn't on Y-DNA back when I started collecting, so I counted in all individuals with a largely Hungarian background into this database, regardless of region. It still looks surprisingly similar to the chart on Eupedia, but it looks like the so-called Central and North Asiatic haplogroups (C, N, Q) were seriously under counted by Eupedia.
Ioas and Riverman like this post
Ancient (Davidski's G25)
1. Western Steppe Herder 47.2%
2. Early European Farmer 39%
3. Western Hunter-Gatherer 11.6%
4. Han 2.2%

Modern (G25)
1. Austrian 64%
2. Kuban Cossack 23.4%
3. Kabardian 6.6%
4. Crimean Tatar 3.2%
5. Hungarian 2.8%
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