Ust'ishim

[heraultr]

Hello ,
do you think that Ust'ishim lived before the split between West Eurasian and East Eurasian? Thanks.

[Desdonas]

Vallini and wikipedia suggest that he is a very basal East Eurasian lineage, and Kostenki/Sunghir are unadmixed WE. While some f3 stats suggests that he is closest related to Goyet relative to other East and West Eurasians. In an alternative model, west crown Eurasian could generally be "para-Ust", and then K/S get some basal-like geneflow.

24 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Ust_Ishim 0.3111 0.0005669 0.3106 0.0005014 0.8844 0.3765
25 Mbuti Ust_Ishim BachoKiro_IUP 0.1742 0.0006445 0.1750 -0.0008384 -1.301 0.1933
26 Mbuti Ust_Ishim China_UP 0.1755 0.0006281 0.1758 -0.0003181 -0.5064 0.6126
27 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Onge_Jarawa 0.1757 0.0005904 0.1758 -0.00009164 -0.1552 0.8766
28 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Jomon 0.1756 0.0006216 0.1758 -0.0001391 -0.2237 0.8230
29 Mbuti Ust_Ishim RUS_Primorsky_N 0.1752 0.0006072 0.1758 -0.0005711 -0.9406 0.3469
30 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Goyet_Fournol 0.1765 0.0006998 0.1768 -0.0003929 -0.5615 0.5744
31 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Yana 0.1753 0.0006153 0.1751 0.0002723 0.4425 0.6581
32 Mbuti Ust_Ishim MA1 0.1757 0.0006740 0.1750 0.0006613 0.9812 0.3265
33 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Muierii1 0.1753 0.0007180 0.1756 -0.0003541 -0.4931 0.6219
34 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Kostenki14 0.1755 0.0007213 0.1748 0.0007259 1.006 0.3143
35 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Sunghir 0.1748 0.0006042 0.1748 0.00002027 0.03354 0.9732
36 Mbuti Ust_Ishim BachoKiro_BK1653 0.1742 0.0006955 0.1749 -0.0007867 -1.131 0.2580
37 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Gravettian 0.1752 0.0006022 0.1753 -0.00004674 -0.07761 0.9381
38 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Peru_RioUncallane_1800BP 0.1748 0.0006078 0.1755 -0.0006865 -1.130 0.2587
39 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Georgia_UP 0.1728 0.0006569 0.1734 -0.0006237 -0.9495 0.3424
40 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Italy_WHG 0.1748 0.0006376 0.1749 -0.0001584 -0.2485 0.8038
41 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Pinarbasi 0.1730 0.0006840 0.1734 -0.0004792 -0.7006 0.4836
42 Mbuti Ust_Ishim IBM 0.1624 0.0005090 0.1625 -0.0001075 -0.2113 0.8327
43 Mbuti Ust_Ishim Iran_N 0.1713 0.0005251 0.1713 -0.00002688 -0.05118 0.9592
44 Mbuti Ust_Ishim EHG 0.1740 0.0005969 0.1747 -0.0006455 -1.082 0.2795
45 Mbuti Ust_Ishim CHG 0.1723 0.0006013 0.1722 0.00006712 0.1116 0.9111

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?tid=171&page=16

[TanTin]

I agree, Ust'ishim is mostly basal. And the split was not so drastic, compared to OOA split. Europe and Asia had always some connections, it was mostly the distance separating East and WEST. Ust'ishim is near the top of this triangle (Basal - East - WEST) .

[rmstevens2]

Interesting that, in terms of Y-DNA, Ust'ishim is K-V7320, and that, according to FTDNA Discover, there is at least one modern man belonging to a haplogroup downstream of K-V7320. He is either a Russian or someone with his most distant Y-DNA origin in Russia (that is, based on his own report of his origin). 

However, FTDNA Discover does not identify any SNPs directly downstream of K-V7320.

[parasar]

RD16004 Ust'-Ishim Ust’-Ishim, western Siberia - 45,000 BP K-V7320 M2308+, V7320+

K-M2308
https://www.yfull.com/tree/K-M2308/

Parallel under K-M2308
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna...20/notable
"Wahab Deen’s great-grandson is a “famous first” Big Y tester for Y-DNA haplogroup K. He has Pahari-speaking background from the Pakistan-administered Jammu Kashmir, specifically the Mirpur division. Wahab Deen migrated to England sometime in the 1950s or 60s. He belongs to the Dhamial clan, historically from the Jatt community. His ancestors migrated to the Mirpur region approximately 300-400 years ago. His interests include languages, anthropology, genetics, and the history of human migrations and civilizations.

Y-DNA haplogroup K is a macrohaplogroup that is ancestral to haplogroups L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, and T. The rare lineage within haplogroup K that does not belong to any of the other haplogroups is sometimes also called K2a or NO since it is closest related to haplogroups N and O.

Wahab Deen’s haplogroup K lineage branched off from the rest of mankind around 42,000 BCE and has two main lineages that split from each other around 41,500 BCE: one which is found in South Asia (India and Pakistan) and one that is found in Island Southeast Asia.

When his great-grandson got his Big Y result in 2021, he was the first tester from the South Asian group, matching one anonymous Indian Telugu participant from the 1000 Genomes Project and one Telugu speaker from The South Asian Genome study (Chambers et al. 2014)."

[Desdonas]

Interesting that, in terms of Y-DNA, Ust'ishim is K-V7320, and that, according to FTDNA Discover, there is at least one modern man belonging to a haplogroup downstream of K-V7320. He is either a Russian or someone with his most distant Y-DNA origin in Russia (that is, based on his own report of his origin). 

However, FTDNA Discover does not identify any SNPs directly downstream of K-V7320.

The 1 K-V7320 sample on ftdna is Ust Ishim himself. When you turn to the bottom of the page, K-V7320 only includes Ust rather than any modern man. In fact, all modern K2a belongs to K-F549 (K2a1), and the Ust lineage is basal to all K2a1.

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/K-V7320/tree

[rmstevens2]

Interesting that, in terms of Y-DNA, Ust'ishim is K-V7320, and that, according to FTDNA Discover, there is at least one modern man belonging to a haplogroup downstream of K-V7320. He is either a Russian or someone with his most distant Y-DNA origin in Russia (that is, based on his own report of his origin). 

However, FTDNA Discover does not identify any SNPs directly downstream of K-V7320.

The 1 K-V7320 sample on ftdna is Ust Ishim himself. When you turn to the bottom of the page, K-V7320 only includes Ust rather than any modern man. In fact, all modern K2a belongs to K-F549 (K2a1), and the Ust lineage is basal to all K2a1.

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/K-V7320/tree

That seems strange. The "Haplogroup Story" page makes it look like there is one living tested K-V7320 descendant. 

What you say makes sense, given that it's unlikely that a modern man would get a K-V7320 result and nothing more, but ". . . [T]hey specified that their earliest known origins are from: Russian Federation" seems an odd thing to say of Ust'ishim.

[TanTin]

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aav2621

K2 - M526(1)
54.3 kya
(47.4 - 62.2)

K2a - M2308 (1)
50.7 kya
(45.0 - 58.3)

Figure S9. Time-calibrated phylogeny of macro-haplogroup K-M9. Y chromosome
tree depicting main lineages descending from K-M9. Ancient basal samples are
included as hashed lines.

[Kale]

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aav2621

K2 - M526(1)
54.3 kya
(47.4 - 62.2)

K2a - M2308 (1)
50.7 kya
(45.0  - 58.3)

Figure S9. Time-calibrated phylogeny of macro-haplogroup K-M9. Y chromosome
tree depicting main lineages descending from K-M9. Ancient basal samples are
included as hashed lines.

Ust_Ishim should constraint the age of K more than that I would think, being dated 43980-40954 calBCE and having 7 mutations downstream of K. At 83 years per snp would mean 95% CI Ust-Ishim lived 275-1093 years after the first K*, placing K* at ~45,073-41,229BC.

[kolompar]

The thing with Ust'-Ishim's haplogroup is it's between K2a and K2b, and that split looks clean and late enough to suggest East Eurasians were already formed by then and it was the actual split between East Asians and Oceanians.

But they form a clade against Ust'-Ishim:

Code:

pop1    pop2    pop3    pop4    est    se    z    p    n
Mbuti.DG    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    China_Tianyuan    Papuan.DG    -0.000785811    0.000659358    -1.191781159    0.233347065    884492
Mbuti.DG    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    China_Tianyuan    ONG.SG    0.000254893    0.000590266    0.431827632    0.665866695    878414
Mbuti.DG    China_Tianyuan    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    ONG.SG    0.004607883    0.00070986    6.49125768    8.51E-11    878414
Mbuti.DG    China_Tianyuan    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    Papuan.DG    0.003761995    0.000730911    5.146997851    2.65E-07    884492
Mbuti.DG    ONG.SG    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    China_Tianyuan    0.00435299    0.000612967    7.10151002    1.23E-12    878414
Mbuti.DG    Papuan.DG    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    China_Tianyuan    0.004547806    0.000658013    6.911422681    4.80E-12    884492

And even kind of holds with the probably older Bacho Kiro:

Code:

Mbuti.DG    Bulgaria_BachoKiro_LatePleistocene    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    China_Tianyuan    0.002020002    0.000696419    2.900552838    0.00372505    827041
Mbuti.DG    Bulgaria_BachoKiro_LatePleistocene    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    ONG.SG    0.001028649    0.000560273    1.835979814    0.066360642    985969
Mbuti.DG    Bulgaria_BachoKiro_LatePleistocene    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    Papuan.DG    -0.000608792    0.000609033    -0.999604501    0.317501944    992072

I can't see how these populations could have spent time together after the split with Ust'-Ishim. So he must have an admixture that pulls him away, and it can't be archaic that affects these stats as Papuan have more than him while Onge seem to have less.

[Enki]

Interesting that, in terms of Y-DNA, Ust'ishim is K-V7320, and that, according to FTDNA Discover, there is at least one modern man belonging to a haplogroup downstream of K-V7320. He is either a Russian or someone with his most distant Y-DNA origin in Russia (that is, based on his own report of his origin). 

However, FTDNA Discover does not identify any SNPs directly downstream of K-V7320.

The 1 K-V7320 sample on ftdna is Ust Ishim himself. When you turn to the bottom of the page, K-V7320 only includes Ust rather than any modern man. In fact, all modern K2a belongs to K-F549 (K2a1), and the Ust lineage is basal to all K2a1.

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/K-V7320/tree

On the tree it looks like Ust Ishim is on a parallel branch. the Wahab Deen guy is on F549, but Ust Ishim is on the separate mutation K-V7320. Looks like Ishim split from F549 rather than is ancestral to it.

[Kale]

The thing with Ust'-Ishim's haplogroup is it's between K2a and K2b, and that split looks clean and late enough to suggest East Eurasians were already formed by then and it was the actual split between East Asians and Oceanians.

But they form a clade against Ust'-Ishim:

Code:

pop1    pop2    pop3    pop4    est    se    z    p    n
Mbuti.DG    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    China_Tianyuan    Papuan.DG    -0.000785811    0.000659358    -1.191781159    0.233347065    884492
Mbuti.DG    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    China_Tianyuan    ONG.SG    0.000254893    0.000590266    0.431827632    0.665866695    878414
Mbuti.DG    China_Tianyuan    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    ONG.SG    0.004607883    0.00070986    6.49125768    8.51E-11    878414
Mbuti.DG    China_Tianyuan    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    Papuan.DG    0.003761995    0.000730911    5.146997851    2.65E-07    884492
Mbuti.DG    ONG.SG    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    China_Tianyuan    0.00435299    0.000612967    7.10151002    1.23E-12    878414
Mbuti.DG    Papuan.DG    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    China_Tianyuan    0.004547806    0.000658013    6.911422681    4.80E-12    884492

And even kind of holds with the probably older Bacho Kiro:

Code:

Mbuti.DG    Bulgaria_BachoKiro_LatePleistocene    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    China_Tianyuan    0.002020002    0.000696419    2.900552838    0.00372505    827041
Mbuti.DG    Bulgaria_BachoKiro_LatePleistocene    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    ONG.SG    0.001028649    0.000560273    1.835979814    0.066360642    985969
Mbuti.DG    Bulgaria_BachoKiro_LatePleistocene    Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG    Papuan.DG    -0.000608792    0.000609033    -0.999604501    0.317501944    992072

I can't see how these populations could have spent time together after the split with Ust'-Ishim. So he must have an admixture that pulls him away, and it can't be archaic that affects these stats as Papuan have more than him while Onge seem to have less.

It is rather counterintuitive longitudinally, perhaps latitude is the rationalizing factor?
Stage 1) A population exists in Kazakhstan ancestral to Ust-Ishim and East-Eurasians
Stage 2) Ust-Ishim's ancestors migrate North (he's fairly far up, 57 degrees)
Stage 3) The population remaining at lower latitudes shortly thereafter expands East (as East-Eurasians proper) and West (BachoKiro/Oase)

Drift ~= time / population size. We only have a few hundred years to play with if a clean branching will account for the shared y-line of Ust-Ishim and Oase, but a small population size is conceivable at the initial peopling of Eurasia.

[Quint]

In G25, Ust'-Ishim appears on the West-East Eurasian cline where it is leaning towards the Southern East Asian/Siberian cluster:

   
(X = PC2, Y = PC11, Z = PC25)

Target: Russia_Ust_Ishim.DG:UstIshim_snpAD.DG
Distance: 1.6571% / 0.01657087 | ADC: 0.25x RC
34.8 Mala:S_Mala-3
14.2 Israel_Natufian:I0861
14.0 Mlabri:MA126
9.4 Papuan:PNG_Highland02
5.8 Sudanese:SUDANESE7
5.4 Russia_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3_noUDG_d
4.8 Switzerland_Bichon.SG:Bichon.SG
4.8 Qiang_Danba:DBA01
4.6 Gambia_JOLA:per147
1.2 Biaka:HGDP00454
0.8 Morocco_Iberomaurusian:TAF010_noUDG
0.2 Latvia_BA:Kivutkalns207

[kolompar]

It is rather counterintuitive longitudinally, perhaps latitude is the rationalizing factor?
Stage 1) A population exists in Kazakhstan ancestral to Ust-Ishim and East-Eurasians
Stage 2) Ust-Ishim's ancestors migrate North (he's fairly far up, 57 degrees)
Stage 3) The population remaining at lower latitudes shortly thereafter expands East (as East-Eurasians proper) and West (BachoKiro/Oase)

Drift ~= time / population size. We only have a few hundred years to play with if a clean branching will account for the shared y-line of Ust-Ishim and Oase, but a small population size is conceivable at the initial peopling of Eurasia.

I would associate East Eurasian with the India/Southeast Asia region, based on modern distribution and haplogroups. I don't know how habitable or even crossable Kazakhstan or Western China and Mongolia was. Maybe somewhere along the Himalaya foothills is possible for either kind of ancestry Ust'-Ishim has, based on his location, but I don't know what route Bacho Kiro could have taken while seemingly avoiding Ust'-like people.
But Southeast Asia definitely would have been the most suitable environment for the OoA population, just compare the range of non-human primates for example. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:...ensity.png
So it could have been a simple numerical advantage that helped them conquer a lot of Eurasia after a few hundred years. And if we link East Eurasian to the Asian tropics then latitude could be a factor in that Ust' might have ancestry from a more cold adapted population.
So what was that population? Zlaty Kun like? They aren't really related in terms of f-stats but I remember they shared some IBD and would kind of fit my idea geopgraphically.
Why aren't West Eurasians (Europeans and Anatolia/Iran) more related to Ust'? Even the Europeans who are closest in f3 are not significant in f4(Mbuti, x, Ust', East). Is it extra East levelling it out, something like Bacho Kiro for Europe and maybe the LT population or later AASI for Iran?

[Kale]

Would SE-Asia have been the best evironment for OOA? Their ancestors spent the preceeding (up to) 20,000 years in NE-Africa/Levant, which I'd assume would be more savannah-like at the time?
If anything that would make the steppe at least a more familiar environment (If ~50 degrees latitude was steppe during the IUP).
Here's a map of IUP sites. Clusters around Baikal and Altai. Also shows how much of a Northern outlier Ust-Ishim is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Initi..._sites.jpg