I-Z140 Thread v3

[spruithean]

We’ve moved to a new location, re-resurrecting an old thread from the Anthrogenica days.

Any and all discussion of I-Z140 and all related subclades is welcome in here!

[JMcB]

We’ve moved to a new location, re-resurrecting an old thread from the Anthrogenica days.

Any and all discussion of I-Z140 and all related subclades is welcome in here!

Hello spruithean,

I’m glad to see you made it here! There’s nothing really new, except we’ve had some nice additions to our ancient list in the last few months.


(01) Z141 — I15549 — Goth — Mediana, Serbia, (259 - 409 AD)
(02) Z141 — I15545 — Goth — Military - Timacum Minus, Serbia, (417- 538 AD)
(03) Z141 — VK357 — Sweden, Kalmar län, (860 - 996 AD)
(04) Z141 — VK327 — Denmark, Syddanmark, (870 - 1170 AD)
(05) Z141 — VK363 — Denmark, Syddanmark, (970 - 1070 AD)
(06) Z141 — VK 262 — England, Dorset, (970 - 1170 AD)
(07) Z141 — SBT-A1 — Smyrlaberg, Reykir, Iceland — (1020 AD)
(08) Z141 — VK337  — Sweden, Kalmar län, (1064 -1184 AD)
(09) Z141 — TAQ009 — Tarquinia, Italy, (1064±27 AD)
(10)  Z141 — VK301 — Ladby 4 - Grave, Funen, Denmark, (515 - 1015 AD)
(11)  Z141 — HAD003 — Hatherdene Close, Cambridgeshire, England,(424 -575 AD)
(12)  Z141 — I20649 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (500 - 550 AD)
(13)  Z141 —  I20661 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (450 - 650 AD)
(14)  Z141 — I20656 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (450 - 650 AD)
(15)  Z141 — I20649 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (500 - 600 AD)
(16)  Z141 — I20679 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (450 - 650 AD)
(17)  Z141 — BUK038 — Dover Buckland, Kent, England, (400 - 800 AD)
(18)  Z141 — BUK073 — Dover Buckland, Kent, England, (400 - 800 AD)
(19)  Z141 — SED014 — Sedgeford, Norfolk, England, (708 - 880 AD)
(20)  Z141 — DRU014 — Drantum, Lower Saxony, Germany, ( 707 - 882 AD)
(21)  Z141 — HGH1600 — Heiligen Geist Hospital, Lubeck, Germany, (1304 - 1362 AD)
(22)  Z141 — A181015 - Str 3817 — Kecskemét, Mindszenti-dűlő II, Bács-Kiskun county, Hungary. (400 - 500 AD)
(23) Z141 — A181016 - Str 3826 — Kecskemét, Mindszenti-dűlő II, Bács-Kiskun county, Hungary. (400 - 500 AD)
(24) Z141 - POZ643 - Komarov/Trzciniec culture, Beremiany, West-Ukraine (1919-1701 BC) FTDNA call is: I-CTS10937
(25) Z141 - PCA0498 - Wielbark Culture - Pruszcz Gdanski, Pomerania, Poland (100 - 300 AD)
(26) Z141 - NEO590 Magleo, Denmark; Denmark BA (1425 - 1269 BC) Z141>Y5497
(27) Z141 - CGG100679 Tjærby, Randers, Jutland. (1300 - 1350 AD)  Z141>Y5497
(28) Z141 - CGG100687 Tjærby, Randers, Jutland. (1000-1300 AD) Z151>I-A2398

[jdbreazeale]

(01) Z141 — I15549 — Goth — Mediana, Serbia, (259 - 409 AD)
(02) Z141 — I15545 — Goth — Military - Timacum Minus, Serbia, (417- 538 AD)
(03) Z141 — VK357 — Sweden, Kalmar län, (860 - 996 AD)
(04) Z141 — VK327 — Denmark, Syddanmark, (870 - 1170 AD)
(05) Z141 — VK363 — Denmark, Syddanmark, (970 - 1070 AD)
(06) Z141 — VK 262 — England, Dorset, (970 - 1170 AD)
(07) Z141 — SBT-A1 — Smyrlaberg, Reykir, Iceland — (1020 AD)
(08) Z141 — VK337  — Sweden, Kalmar län, (1064 -1184 AD)
(09) Z141 — TAQ009 — Tarquinia, Italy, (1064±27 AD)
(10)  Z141 — VK301 — Ladby 4 - Grave, Funen, Denmark, (515 - 1015 AD)
(11)  Z141 — HAD003 — Hatherdene Close, Cambridgeshire, England,(424 -575 AD)
(12)  Z141 — I20649 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (500 - 550 AD)
(13)  Z141 —  I20661 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (450 - 650 AD)
(14)  Z141 — I20656 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (450 - 650 AD)
(15)  Z141 — I20649 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (500 - 600 AD)
(16)  Z141 — I20679 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (450 - 650 AD)
(17)  Z141 — BUK038 — Dover Buckland, Kent, England, (400 - 800 AD)
(18)  Z141 — BUK073 — Dover Buckland, Kent, England, (400 - 800 AD)
(19)  Z141 — SED014 — Sedgeford, Norfolk, England, (708 - 880 AD)
(20)  Z141 — DRU014 — Drantum, Lower Saxony, Germany, ( 707 - 882 AD)
(21)  Z141 — HGH1600 — Heiligen Geist Hospital, Lubeck, Germany, (1304 - 1362 AD)
(22)  Z141 — A181015 - Str 3817 — Kecskemét, Mindszenti-dűlő II, Bács-Kiskun county, Hungary. (400 - 500 AD)
(23) Z141 — A181016 - Str 3826 — Kecskemét, Mindszenti-dűlő II, Bács-Kiskun county, Hungary. (400 - 500 AD)
(24) Z141 - POZ643 - Komarov/Trzciniec culture, Beremiany, West-Ukraine (1919-1701 BC) FTDNA call is: I-CTS10937
(25) Z141 - PCA0498 - Wielbark Culture - Pruszcz Gdanski, Pomerania, Poland (100 - 300 AD)
(26) Z141 - NEO590 Magleo, Denmark; Denmark BA (1425 - 1269 BC) Z141>Y5497
(27) Z141 - CGG100679 Tjærby, Randers, Jutland. (1300 - 1350 AD)  Z141>Y5497
(28) Z141 - CGG100687 Tjærby, Randers, Jutland. (1000-1300 AD) Z151>I-A2398

I'm really excited to FINALLY be getting an I-A2398 "ancient" sample. Most all of my next closest are below L338, but usually S12289+ (A2398 is a nephew of S12289 below its brother A1944).

[JonikW]

(01) Z141 — I15549 — Goth — Mediana, Serbia, (259 - 409 AD)
(02) Z141 — I15545 — Goth — Military - Timacum Minus, Serbia, (417- 538 AD)
(03) Z141 — VK357 — Sweden, Kalmar län, (860 - 996 AD)
(04) Z141 — VK327 — Denmark, Syddanmark, (870 - 1170 AD)
(05) Z141 — VK363 — Denmark, Syddanmark, (970 - 1070 AD)
(06) Z141 — VK 262 — England, Dorset, (970 - 1170 AD)
(07) Z141 — SBT-A1 — Smyrlaberg, Reykir, Iceland — (1020 AD)
(08) Z141 — VK337  — Sweden, Kalmar län, (1064 -1184 AD)
(09) Z141 — TAQ009 — Tarquinia, Italy, (1064±27 AD)
(10)  Z141 — VK301 — Ladby 4 - Grave, Funen, Denmark, (515 - 1015 AD)
(11)  Z141 — HAD003 — Hatherdene Close, Cambridgeshire, England,(424 -575 AD)
(12)  Z141 — I20649 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (500 - 550 AD)
(13)  Z141 —  I20661 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (450 - 650 AD)
(14)  Z141 — I20656 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (450 - 650 AD)
(15)  Z141 — I20649 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (500 - 600 AD)
(16)  Z141 — I20679 — West Heslerton, Yorkshire, England, (450 - 650 AD)
(17)  Z141 — BUK038 — Dover Buckland, Kent, England, (400 - 800 AD)
(18)  Z141 — BUK073 — Dover Buckland, Kent, England, (400 - 800 AD)
(19)  Z141 — SED014 — Sedgeford, Norfolk, England, (708 - 880 AD)
(20)  Z141 — DRU014 — Drantum, Lower Saxony, Germany, ( 707 - 882 AD)
(21)  Z141 — HGH1600 — Heiligen Geist Hospital, Lubeck, Germany, (1304 - 1362 AD)
(22)  Z141 — A181015 - Str 3817 — Kecskemét, Mindszenti-dűlő II, Bács-Kiskun county, Hungary. (400 - 500 AD)
(23) Z141 — A181016 - Str 3826 — Kecskemét, Mindszenti-dűlő II, Bács-Kiskun county, Hungary. (400 - 500 AD)
(24) Z141 - POZ643 - Komarov/Trzciniec culture, Beremiany, West-Ukraine (1919-1701 BC) FTDNA call is: I-CTS10937
(25) Z141 - PCA0498 - Wielbark Culture - Pruszcz Gdanski, Pomerania, Poland (100 - 300 AD)
(26) Z141 - NEO590 Magleo, Denmark; Denmark BA (1425 - 1269 BC) Z141>Y5497
(27) Z141 - CGG100679 Tjærby, Randers, Jutland. (1300 - 1350 AD)  Z141>Y5497
(28) Z141 - CGG100687 Tjærby, Randers, Jutland. (1000-1300 AD) Z151>I-A2398

I'm really excited to FINALLY be getting an I-A2398 "ancient" sample.  Most all of my next closest are below L338, but usually S12289+ (A2398 is a nephew of S12289 below its brother A1944).

Congratulations and it's actually fascinating to see developments on a line that is L338+ and S12289-. My own S12289+ line always seems to get more than its fair share of the limelight.

[JMcB]

Some comments about Z141 in the recent article on Genomic Atlas about the Goths. Which, as usual, is highly recommended.



Interestingly, the genomes of at least two Gothic individuals were sequenced in the study, and they both fall within the CNE cluster. Both Goths carried Y-DNA haplogroup I1-Z141, which was also found in sample PCA0498 from the Wielbark culture.

“Y-chromosome lineages also provide evidence for gene-flow, as 5 of 7 males in the Central/Northern European and Steppe cluster belonged to two lineages not found in the Balkans earlier: haplogroup I1 with a strong Northern European distribution and haplogroup R1a-Z645, common in the Steppe during the Iron Age and early 1st millennium CE 26–28.”

“To obtain a fitting model, a significant proportion of ancestry (~14%) related to contemporaneous nomadic steppe groups (proxied in our analysis by Late Sarmatians from the Eastern Pontic-Caspian steppe 26) is also needed (Figure 2; Supplementary section 12.6). This is even more evident in two individuals from the Pecine necropolis in Viminacium (referred to as Steppe cluster), who could be modelled as deriving ~43% of ancestry from the Balkans Iron Age-related cluster and 57% ancestry from Late Sarmatian-related Steppe groups (Figure 2; Supplementary section 12.7).”

The excerpts above are highly relevant, as the study’s findings strongly suggests that the Goths did in fact pick up Sarmatian-related ancestry in the Chernyakhov culture. The researchers appear to agree, as they explain that their observations are consistent with the hypothesis that Germanic tribes interacted with Steppe-related nomadic populations reaching the Eastern European plateau, and incorporated their ancestry into their gene pool before moving into the Balkans. The R1a-Z645 (likely further downstream at R1a-Z93) represents the Sarmatian contribution to the CNE cluster,whereas the I1 lineages represent the Gothic contribution.

If we download the supplementary information of Olalde et al. (2021) and go to page 8, some very interesting information about the Gothic sample from Mediana in the study can be found:

“Both skeletons laid in their graves in an outstretched position, with their hands alongside their bodies. They had an east-west orientation, with their heads on the west. The archaeological and historical context indicates these individuals belonged to the Gothic cultural circle. In connection with this, both individuals present artificially deformed skulls which were characteristic of Germanic tribes during the Great Migration period. This cultural practice was could have been adopted from the Huns. Furthermore, the skull bandaging method observed for these two individuals corresponds with other examples of cranial deformation previously observed in Germanic necropolises at Viminacium. There are 4 bandaging zones observed form a lateral projection: frontal above the measuring point glabella (G), parietal behind the bregma (B), parietal above the inion (I), as well as occipital below the measuring point inion. Thus, in a reconstructive sense, it is obvious that the bandage tape bent around the cerebral part of the skull in three directions: fronto-parietal, fronto-occipital and parieto-occipital.”

“From this necropolis, only G-34 individual yielded enough DNA for further genetic study. The analysis of this sample points towards them having Central-North European Iron Age- related ancestry, admixed with a small yet significant portion of Iron Age Steppe related ancestry, compatible with possible Germanic peoples (further explained in Supplementary section 12.6).”

The individual G-34/(sample I15549) was one of the Goths with an artificially deformed, elongated skull and Y-DNA I1. G-34 was dated to 259-409 AD. What we can observe by looking at samples like G-34/I15549 is a neat example of how Germanic tribesmen adopted cultural practices from the Huns and other Iron Age steppe nomads they interacted with.

Interestingly, two Hunnic samples from Kecskemét in Hungary published in Gnecchi-Ruscone et al. (2022) also carried I1-Z141, just like the Goths from Mediana and Timacum Minus. Although they were found in a Hunnic archaeological context, we can say with a high degree of certainty that they were of Gothic or Gepidic paternal descent, something that is further strengthened by their autosomal profile. Another Hunnic sample, Fonyód 5, carried R1b-Z18. Z18 is a typically Scandinavian subclade of R1b-U106. As such, Fonyód 5 is further proof of admixture between East Germanic tribes and Huns.

Another sample with a Gothic background from Olalde et al. (2021) is G-25/I15545 from Timacum Minus. He also carried Y-DNA I1-Z141 and belonged to the CNE autosomal cluster. It is evident, judging by the Gothic samples from Olalde et al. (2021), that the Goths in the Balkans still had substantial amounts of Northern European ancestry and carried Y-DNA lineages from the Wielbark culture.



For the entire article see:


The genetic origin of the Goths
Posted by GENOMIC ATLAS on 26 OCTOBER, 2023


https://genomicatlas.org/2023/10/26/the-...the-goths/

[jdbreazeale]

So I got tired of waiting for FTDNA.  I went ahead and used Genome Workbench (for the first time) to look at CGG100687 who was claimed to be I-A2398.  It looks as though he's probably NOT I-A2398, but might actually split I-A1944/Y15155, but someone smarter than me is going to have to verify that.
   

  CGG100687.xlsx (Size: 12.92 KB / Downloads: 1)

[jdbreazeale]

So I got tired of waiting for FTDNA.  I went ahead and used Genome Workbench (for the first time) to look at CGG100687 who was claimed to be I-A2398.  It looks as though he's probably NOT I-A2398, but might actually split I-A1944/Y15155, but someone smarter than me is going to have to verify that.

Well, I was right.  The Tjærby 687 (CGG100687) sample did split I-A2398.  Now there is a block of one SNP between A1944 and A2398 called I-FT154985.  It is at Hg38 position 19313888, and it's a C > G mutation.  My Big Y results are ambiguous for it (one T, 2 G), but my DanteLabs WGS test is positive for it (16 G).

I'm going to keep it lumped with I-A2398 for now.  I doubt we'll ever get another sample like Tjærby 687.

   

[jdbreazeale]

On another note, regarding the FTDNA FamilyFinder Y Haplogroup update, here is a link to a preliminary list of included SNPs.  I can't say if the list is exhaustive, but I can say that, when they start doing transfers, the list will definitely change because of the different sequencing chips used by other vendors.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...edit#gid=0

Here are some SNPs that are pertinent to this thread.

Code:

Z141
Z140
Z140/S440/Y:17863355-G-A
Y7481
Y7483
Z2535
Z2535/S1953/Y:22142382-G-T
S12289
S1972
S1990
CTS6772
S1975
S1977
S1973

So A12974+ get some love, and S12289+ gets a bunch, but it looks like my A1944+ matches will be stuck up at Z2535: one block below Z141.  Oh well. :-(

[jdbreazeale]

On another note, regarding the FTDNA FamilyFinder Y Haplogroup update, here is a link to a preliminary list of included SNPs.  I can't say if the list is exhaustive, but I can say that, when they start doing transfers, the list will definitely change because of the different sequencing chips used by other vendors.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...edit#gid=0

Here are some SNPs that are pertinent to this thread.

Code:

Z141
Z140
Z140/S440/Y:17863355-G-A
Y7481
Y7483
Z2535
Z2535/S1953/Y:22142382-G-T
S12289
S1972
S1990
CTS6772
S1975
S1977
S1973

So A12974+ get some love, and S12289+ gets a bunch, but it looks like my A1944+ matches will be stuck up at Z2535: one block below Z141.  Oh well. :-(

Regarding the origins of the the SNP worksheet, here is a link to a re-post by John Templer Harper in the "England GB Groups EIJ" FTDNA project.
https://www.familytreedna.com/social/object/4842891

This info came from Vince in U106 blog.
https://groups.io/g/R1b-U106/message/7704

[jdbreazeale]

The new pre-print paper "Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages" <https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.03.13.584607v1.full>includes about 376 new ancient DNA samples, 10 of which have been marked at or below I-Z140.

Some of the new samples are VERY interesting.

For example, there is CGG106748 who was found at the Slusegård site in Denmark, dated to about 1750ybp (273 CE), Y haplo I-S1990 who they have clustered as iron-age Baltic! All of the other samples with haplos at/below I-Z140 have been clustered as Scandanavian.

Also, CGG106515 who was found at the Strandlunden II Gerlev site in Denmark, dated about 3290ybp (1266 BCE) EARLY BRONZE AGE, Y haplo I-Z140 (formed 1950 BCE according to Discover) is clustered as Eastern Scandinavian.