Anglo-Saxon aDNA; Gretzinger, Francis Crick and beyond

[JonikW]

There's a new paper here that uses isotopic analysis to assess mobility in Conversion Period England. Hopefully we'll get aDNA from some of the samples in question later. There are a number of sites with new data here, including from east Kent.

[Orentil]

There's a new paper here that uses isotopic analysis to assess mobility in Conversion Period England. Hopefully we'll get aDNA from some of the samples in question later. There are a number of sites with new data here, including from east Kent.

Interesting article but I am not sure about their conclusion.

"If, as is widely assumed, the well-furnished burial rite is a reflection of high status, these results suggest that women of non-local origin were generally of lower status than their local counterparts (with royal women as a notable exception). The non-local females in our sample appear to have come from at least two different regions, one of which is consistent with the ‘Atlantic Fringe’ zone, i.e. south-west England, Ireland and coastal areas of Wales."
Were these females of lower status or did they come from areas (Celtic speaking?) where it was not so common to bury well-furnished, or maybe both is true? I'd like to compare it with Longobardian time burials in Pannonia/Italy. aDNA would definitively help.

[JonikW]

There's a new paper here that uses isotopic analysis to assess mobility in Conversion Period England. Hopefully we'll get aDNA from some of the samples in question later. There are a number of sites with new data here, including from east Kent.

Interesting article but I am not sure about their conclusion.

"If, as is widely assumed, the well-furnished burial rite is a reflection of high status, these results suggest that women of non-local origin were generally of lower status than their local counterparts (with royal women as a notable exception). The non-local females in our sample appear to have come from at least two different regions, one of which is consistent with the ‘Atlantic Fringe’ zone, i.e. south-west England, Ireland and coastal areas of Wales."
Were these females of lower status or did they come from areas (Celtic speaking?) where it was not so common to bury well-furnished, or maybe both is true? I'd like to compare it with Longobardian time burials in Pannonia/Italy. aDNA would definitively help.

I don't know but it certainly wouldn't surprise me. That is when you consider the number of Celtic hanging bowls found in Anglo-Saxon graves. I've often wondered exactly what factors were behind that. Contacts that included intermarriage might be one explanation.

[Telemachus]

Hope this hasn't been noted elsewhere and I missed it, but did anyone notice the Anglo-Saxon origin claim in Allentoft et al.'s "100 ancient genomes show repeated population turnovers in Neolithic Denmark"? In the "Later Neolithic and Bronze Age" section the authors make the following claim:

"Using genomes from LNBA phase III (Scandinavia_4000BP_3000BP) in supervised ancestry modelling, we find that they form the predominant ancestry source for later Iron and Viking Age Scandinavians (Extended Data Fig. 6d) and other ancient European groups with a documented Scandinavian or Germanic association (for example, Anglo-Saxons and Goths; Extended Data Fig. 6e) [emphasis added]."

Would be interested to hear from experts in methodology how adequate this claim is, or if, like some of the ambiguities that arose in analyzing Gretzinger et al.'s 2022 paper, whether the claim might not be fully substantiated due to the limits of admixture analysis (groups that are too similar, standard errors, etc.), the lack of samples from modern northern Germany during relevant time periods, and a relatively small sample size, among other potential issues. It's a claim about fairly deep ancestry, but if true, it might have something to do with the "major north-to-south cline of genetic variation" that Gretzinger et al. detected at some of the sites in their study.

[Radko]

[JonikW]

Just spotted this exciting ongoing University of Exeter research project that I don't think we've mentioned before: “Hidden Kingdoms: the South-West of Britain in Late Antiquity.”

It's being carried out through to 2026 and aims to gain a better understanding of what was happening in terms of continuity and new settlement in the sub-Roman/Early Medieval West Country (the five pre-1974 counties of Cornwall, Devon, Dorset, Somerset and Wiltshire as well as southern Gloucestershire).

From the web page:

“Britain ceasing to be part of the Roman Empire was one of the most formative episodes in our history, yet research on Late Roman and early medieval Britain has traditionally privileged eastern ‘Anglo-Saxon England’ over the so-called western ‘Celtic fringe’. This Leverhulme Trust funded project (2023-26) aims to redress this imbalance by exploring the landscape, communities, and material culture of the hidden kingdoms of South-Western Britain that existed from the 5th-7th centuries, whilst avoiding perpetuating the binary division between east and west through studying the interactions between these British regions and communities with an emerging Anglo-Saxon identity to the east.”

If you click to “find out more” under “Objectives” you'll see a full rundown of the project’s methods and goals.

This one interests me in particular and will include aDNA:

“Objective 3. To understand the evolution of the economy (WP3: coinage and other metalwork, John Naylor)...

“…3.3 Cemeteries excavated in the west and east of the study area have traditionally been regarded as ‘sub-Roman/British’ and ‘Anglo-Saxon respectively’. Their grave-goods will be re-assessed, including the ‘Anglo-Saxon’ objects in ‘sub-Roman’ cemeteries, to better understand the perception of ‘Anglo-Saxon’ material culture. This WP will benefit from the separately funded aDNA analysis being carried out on the cemetery at Ipplepen in Devon.”

I don't remember hearing about Ipplepen before but here are a couple of links on the archaeology:

https://ipplepen.exeter.ac.uk/

https://archaeology.co.uk/articles/news/...plepen.htm

And here's a 2015 BBC link about the discovery of the Ipplepen graves, which I assume is where the aDNA samples will come from (it includes the line: “Tests on one of the skeletons showed the settlement was in use up to 350 years after the Roman period ended, which has surprised experts”):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-31313465

I'll keep an eye on the project page and look forward to the results.

[Æsir]

Hope this hasn't been noted elsewhere and I missed it, but did anyone notice the Anglo-Saxon origin claim in Allentoft et al.'s "100 ancient genomes show repeated population turnovers in Neolithic Denmark"? In the "Later Neolithic and Bronze Age" section the authors make the following claim:

"Using genomes from LNBA phase III (Scandinavia_4000BP_3000BP) in supervised ancestry modelling, we find that they form the predominant ancestry source for later Iron and Viking Age Scandinavians (Extended Data Fig. 6d) and other ancient European groups with a documented Scandinavian or Germanic association (for example, Anglo-Saxons and Goths; Extended Data Fig. 6e) [emphasis added]."

Would be interested to hear from experts in methodology how adequate this claim is, or if, like some of the ambiguities that arose in analyzing Gretzinger et al.'s 2022 paper, whether the claim might not be fully substantiated due to the limits of admixture analysis (groups that are too similar, standard errors, etc.), the lack of samples from modern northern Germany during relevant time periods, and a relatively small sample size, among other potential issues. It's a claim about fairly deep ancestry, but if true, it might have something to do with the "major north-to-south cline of genetic variation" that Gretzinger et al. detected at some of the sites in their study.

I dont know, have been too busy to read trough the new forum, but was going to post it myself.

[JonikW]

There's some interesting new data on the Anglo-Saxon movements in the new McColl et al preprint “Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages”.

There are only two new samples from England, both from Roman Gloucestershire, but the authors use previously published samples as well as their own ones to attempt to give more detail than was achieved under the Gretzinger et al methodology with its broad “CNE” category: “By using Iron Age sources for Western, Southern and Eastern Scandinavians (set 6, Extended 613 Data Figure 6), we are able to ascertain more specific source populations and regions for 614 migrations previously described more broadly to Northern Europe (Gretzinger, Langobards, 615 Stolarek).”

This is the key section:

“Here we find almost all samples from England fall within the Southern 623 Scandinavian clusters, restricting the range from the Netherlands to Jutland (Extended Data 
624 Figure 7). By adding a second Iron Age Southern Scandinavian source from Mecklenburg, 625 Northern Germany, we are able to distinguish between the two Southern Scandinavian IA 626 sources, allowing us to restrict this range further (Extended Data Figure 7). We find Southern 627 Scandinavian ancestry in almost all Saxons from England, Frisians from the Netherlands and 
628 Iron Age Germans to be modelled as the Northern German source.”

There's a chart to illustrate this too:


That passage is worth reading in full because I've omitted some interesting observations that follow the lines above. The Mecklenburg affinity seems to add some nuance to our understanding of the genetic makeup of the “Anglo-Saxons” in England. It's regrettable that (as far as I recall) we still have no aDNA from Angles in their original homeland so we can't tell how they would fare in the Jutland/Mecklenburg comparison. The Gretzinger samples from the broader Anglian area dated from after the later population replacement.

Here's some more relevant info:

“In Britain between 1575 and 1200 BP, we find some outliers modelled with North Jutlandic 645 IA rather than North German IA ancestry (Extended Data Figure 8). Although bias in 646 sampling may mean that the specific region and timing of the arrival of individuals with this 647 profile cannot be identified, the heterogeneity present is expected due to the various 648 homelands of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes along the Eastern North Sea coast migrating to 649 Britain during this period. By the Viking Age, we detect Eastern Scandinavian and Western 
650 Scandinavian ancestries across Britain and its Islands, representing Viking migrations from 651 Sweden and Norway. Although migration from Denmark is likely during this period, the 652 close relation between the Anglo-Saxons and the Danish Vikings limits our ability to detect 653 this migration.”

And this is also a real breakthrough as far as I'm concerned because it had always appeared possible that the Danish islands and potentially even the SW coast of Sweden had been involved to a limited extent in the English settlements: “In addition, we find that the Southern Scandinavian 825 ancestry of these migrating populations is better modelled by individuals near Southern rather 826 than the Northern Jutland, and that the migrating populations often carry varying but minor 827 proportions of ENS ancestry, inherited from the earlier people who previously lived in the 828 region. In contrast to previous studies, which relied on Scandinavian samples postdating the Migration Period 47 829, we can now reject the Danish Isles and Sweden as a source area for the 830 Anglo-Saxons in Britain, as these were dominated by Eastern Scandinavian ancestry prior to 831 the Viking Age (Figure 6).”

There's also some detail on the coming of the Danes into their traditional homelands (Denmark and part of today's Sweden) as the Migration Period played out: “Based on the genetic 887 heterogeneity of the migrating population and the inability to identify a suitable source 888 population, it appears that between 1500 and 1200 BP was likely the outcome of an 889 amalgamation among several migrating and local groups, comparable to the formation 890 processes among Germanic groups on the continent.”

Finally, I was cheered to see #3 in the ”to-do list” given by the authors near the end of the paper and hope someone comes along to tackle it in future: “3) determining the more 952 localised regions both along the East North Sea coast and within Britain representing each of 953 the Angles, Saxons and Jutes.”

[Rodoorn]

There's some interesting new data on the Anglo-Saxon movements in the new McColl et al preprint “Steppe Ancestry in western Eurasia and the spread of the Germanic Languages”.

There are only two new samples from England, both from Roman Gloucestershire, but the authors use previously published samples as well as their own ones to attempt to give more detail than was achieved under the Gretzinger et al methodology with its broad “CNE” category: “By using Iron Age sources for Western, Southern and Eastern Scandinavians (set 6, Extended 613 Data Figure 6), we are able to ascertain more specific source populations and regions for 614 migrations previously described more broadly to Northern Europe (Gretzinger, Langobards, 615 Stolarek).”

This is the key section:

“Here we find almost all samples from England fall within the Southern 623 Scandinavian clusters, restricting the range from the Netherlands to Jutland (Extended Data 
624 Figure 7). By adding a second Iron Age Southern Scandinavian source from Mecklenburg, 625 Northern Germany, we are able to distinguish between the two Southern Scandinavian IA 626 sources, allowing us to restrict this range further (Extended Data Figure 7). We find Southern 627 Scandinavian ancestry in almost all Saxons from England, Frisians from the Netherlands and 
628 Iron Age Germans to be modelled as the Northern German source.”

There's a chart to illustrate this too:


That passage is worth reading in full because I've omitted some interesting observations that follow the lines above. The Mecklenburg affinity seems to add some nuance to our understanding of the genetic makeup of the “Anglo-Saxons” in England. It's regrettable that (as far as I recall) we still have no aDNA from Angles in their original homeland so we can't tell how they would fare in the Jutland/Mecklenburg comparison. The Gretzinger samples from the broader Anglian area dated from after the later population replacement.

Here's some more relevant info:

“In Britain between 1575 and 1200 BP, we find some outliers modelled with North Jutlandic 645 IA rather than North German IA ancestry (Extended Data Figure 8). Although bias in 646 sampling may mean that the specific region and timing of the arrival of individuals with this 647 profile cannot be identified, the heterogeneity present is expected due to the various 648 homelands of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes along the Eastern North Sea coast migrating to 649 Britain during this period. By the Viking Age, we detect Eastern Scandinavian and Western 
650 Scandinavian ancestries across Britain and its Islands, representing Viking migrations from 651 Sweden and Norway. Although migration from Denmark is likely during this period, the 652 close relation between the Anglo-Saxons and the Danish Vikings limits our ability to detect 653 this migration.”

And this is also a real breakthrough as far as I'm concerned because it had always appeared possible that the Danish islands and potentially even the SW coast of Sweden had been involved to a limited extent in the English settlements: “In addition, we find that the Southern Scandinavian 825 ancestry of these migrating populations is better modelled by individuals near Southern rather 826 than the Northern Jutland, and that the migrating populations often carry varying but minor 827 proportions of ENS ancestry, inherited from the earlier people who previously lived in the 828 region. In contrast to previous studies, which relied on Scandinavian samples postdating the Migration Period 47 829, we can now reject the Danish Isles and Sweden as a source area for the 830 Anglo-Saxons in Britain, as these were dominated by Eastern Scandinavian ancestry prior to 831 the Viking Age (Figure 6).”

There's also some detail on the coming of the Danes into their traditional homelands (Denmark and part of today's Sweden) as the Migration Period played out: “Based on the genetic 887 heterogeneity of the migrating population and the inability to identify a suitable source 888 population, it appears that between 1500 and 1200 BP was likely the outcome of an 889 amalgamation among several migrating and local groups, comparable to the formation 890 processes among Germanic groups on the continent.”

Finally, I was cheered to see #3 in the ”to-do list” given by the authors near the end of the paper and hope someone comes along to tackle it in future: “3) determining the more 952 localised regions both along the East North Sea coast and within Britain representing each of 953 the Angles, Saxons and Jutes.”

Ah Jonik! If I read it correctly, this is also the explanation why in the Qadm of Angles my parents are "pure Danish IA"... or am I wrong?

[Mitchell-Atkins]

In Britain between 1575 and 1200 BP, we find some outliers modelled with North Jutlandic IA rather than North German IA ancestry (Extended Data Figure 8). Although bias in 646 sampling may mean that the specific region and timing of the arrival of individuals with this 647 profile cannot be identified, the heterogeneity present is expected due to the various 648 homelands of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes along the Eastern North Sea coast migrating to 649 Britain during this period.

When I read the above quote, it makes sense as the Jutes were in the minority/the outliers as it relates to Anglo-Saxon arrivals to Britain.  The vast  majority would have been from the Angle & Saxon areas of south Jutland and Northwest Germany (North German IA), rather than the North Jutlandic IA homeland of the Jutes.

[AimSmall]

So your map intrigued me with the question mark west of the English Saxons.  Did all of thirty-seven seconds of research...  and learned something new.  Never knew of the Meonwara.

The Meonwara were one of the tribes of Anglo-Saxon Britain. Their territory was a folkland located in the valley of the River Meon in Hampshire that was subsumed by the Kingdom of Wessex in the late seventh century.

In the 8th century the Venerable Bede referred to the Saxon and Jutish settlers that were living in the valley of the River Meon as Meonwara (Meon People) and described the area as Provincia Meanwarorum (Province of the Meonwara). The origin of the name Meon and its meaning is not known for sure, but possibly thought to be Celtic or Pre-Celtic for 'swift one'.

  Britain c540 small.jpg (Size: 149.99 KB / Downloads: 231)

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Yeah some maps have this Hampshire/Isle of Wight area as Jutes...or sometimes  a mixture of Saxons & Jutes

[JonikW]

Yeah some maps have this Hampshire/Isle of Wight area as Jutes...or sometimes  a mixture of Saxons & Jutes

When it comes to the Jutes, it's a shame that Gretzinger et al had no samples from Hampshire and the Isle of Wight. As far as I remember, none from that area have been published by anyone for the Anglo-Saxon population. The closest Gretzinger got was Apple Down in West Sussex. 

It would be good to put tradition to the test and find out to what extent the Jutes really did settle Hampshire/IoW as well as Kent. As an important gateway for all kinds of Germanic immigrants, Kent itself is pretty useless as an indicator unless you happen to get lucky with exactly the right early (and particularly elite) burials.

By way of detail, here's a rundown on some of the evidence linking the Jutes with Hampshire in Stenton’s classic book on the Anglo-Saxons:

“In his description of the races which inhabit Britain Bede definitely assigns Kent, the Isle of Wight, and the mainland districts over against it, to the people whom he calls Iutae. In another part of his work he observes incidentally that the Homel ea —the Hampshire river Hamble—runs through this ‘Jutish’ territory. Even without this explicit statement, there would be no doubt that the Isle of Wight was settled by men who in culture were closely allied to the Jutes of Kent.2 The objects recovered from the burial-places on the island downs show the distinctive features of Kentish grave-furniture. The Jutish occupation of the opposite mainland has not yet been confirmed by archaeology, though it is suggested by some curious points of resemblance between the place-names of this country and those of Kent.3 

“But it is placed beyond doubt by the remarkable statement of an Anglo-Norman historian that William II died ‘in the New Forest, which in English is called Ytene’.4 This name represents the genitive plural of a nominative Yte, which is the late West Saxon form of Bede’s Iutae. Its survival proves not only that the New Forest had once been Jutish land, but that its inhabitants preserved the memory of their origin for many generations.”

[Rodoorn]

In Britain between 1575 and 1200 BP, we find some outliers modelled with North Jutlandic IA rather than North German IA ancestry (Extended Data Figure 8). Although bias in 646 sampling may mean that the specific region and timing of the arrival of individuals with this 647 profile cannot be identified, the heterogeneity present is expected due to the various 648 homelands of the Angles, Saxons and Jutes along the Eastern North Sea coast migrating to 649 Britain during this period.

When I read the above quote, it makes sense as the Jutes were in the minority/the outliers as it relates to Anglo-Saxon arrivals to Britain.  The vast  majority would have been from the Angle & Saxon areas of south Jutland and Northwest Germany (North German IA), rather than the North Jutlandic IA homeland of the Jutes.

As fare as I know this is the picture with the "realms" in the South Scandic world,  with Gudme on Zealand as a kind of cult annex power center. In this number three also the Schlei area most probably the  area of the Angles. The Anglo pirates came to be known as the Saxons. And made colonies along the whole North Sea in England as on the continental North Sea coast (like on the Weser-Elbe triangle). These people were founding  for the English as for the Frisians (old flag, new vessel).

These Germanics were in the late antique pretty militarized, so I guess the expeditions had a high warlord with his warband character (Gefolgschaften). Stefan Burmeister has written some interesting thing about that, unfortunately in German, but google translate is easy!

https://www.academia.edu/3077214/Aufstie...A4rpolitik

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...2020_24-27

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Kind of a tangent but this is probably the best thread for it

Distance to: Mitchell_scaled
0.01438357 Germany_Schleswig_Saxon_LMedieval (closest overall ancient match)
0.01737794 Netherlands_Groningen_Saxon_Medieval (5th closest ancient match)
0.01819439 Germany_Anderten_Saxon_Medieval (6th closest ancient match)

Just for fun I used my top 3 Saxon ancient average matches, weighted them (1/distance e.g 1/0.0143357=69.5) to triangulate where I would come out.

http://www.geomidpoint.com/
I used these matches as they had very specific locations as opposed to a geographically vague location like my 2nd, 3rd and 4th closest ancient pops i.e.

2 Hungary_Langobard
3. England_EarlyMedieval
4. Celtic_Brythonic_North

Actually the Langobards originated near the mouth of the Elbe so in the same area Cuxhaven within the triangle on the map below.