TMRCA Hg V in MTree

[Capsian20]

I'm confused about age TMRCA Haplogroup V in Tree Yfull is impossible TMRCA 4000 years old because there many sample old belong a Haplogroup V more 7900 years old
I believe TMRCA this mtDNA is 13000 years old it's very logical for me
What about you?

[Capsian20]

This samples Ancient belonged a Haplogroup V in site SNP Tracker
   

[JonikW]

I'm somewhat confused about this too and obviously with mtDNA we're on much shakier ground than Y DNA when it comes to dating. My own understanding, such as it is, is that V will have formed towards the end of the last ice age and that TMRCA estimates such as YFull's refer to the modern, surviving branches.

I see that YFull now has a formed estimate of 5,000-3,100ybp and a TMRCA of 3,100-2,600 ybp, 95% CI for V. That's shifted slightly from when I last made a note in early 2022, when they had: formed CI 95% 5,600-3,400 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 3,500-2,900 ybp.

GailT on AG, who knew a lot about mtDNA and posted some useful stuff back on one of our old V threads, liked using the estimates from the Behar et al 2012 paper, which reassessed the mtDNA tree and had an age estimate for V of about 9,700 years. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere between that and YFull's estimate.

[Capsian20]

I'm somewhat confused about this too and obviously with mtDNA we're on much shakier ground than Y DNA when it comes to dating. My own understanding, such as it is, is that V will have formed towards the end of the last ice age and that TMRCA estimates such as YFull's refer to the modern, surviving branches.

I see that YFull now has a formed estimate of 5,000-3,100ybp and a TMRCA of 3,100-2,600 ybp, 95% CI for V. That's shifted slightly from when I last made a note in early 2022, when they had: formed CI 95% 5,600-3,400 ybp, TMRCA CI 95% 3,500-2,900 ybp.

GailT on AG, who knew a lot about mtDNA and posted some useful stuff back on one of our old V threads, liked using the estimates from the Behar et al 2012 paper, which reassessed the mtDNA tree and had an age estimate for V of about 9,700 years. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere between that and YFull's estimate.

This problem Unfortunately isn't there important in mtDNA in Yfull

[Capsian20]

interesting i was looking about any updates in SNP Tracker , i find update in age Haplogroup V ( V25 580 CE )
is this mean North African belong a mtDNA V25 is they are descendants Italian or iberian ?
       

[crashdoc]

Most branches under haplogroup R0 have about 14 mutations from R0 to present day (incl private mutations where applicable).  Subclades of V are no exception and that probably means they have a somewhat stable mutation rate.  With usually 8 mutations under V until present day, that means that V's TMRCA is about 20kya +-5kya.  V25 in turn has only 1 mutation from V, so there's no way its TMRCA is below 10kya.  As an aside the mutation rates that appears stable under R0 means that R0 TMRCA is probably between 35-40kya which is quite young considering that R0 is only two mutations removed from R, while Ust-Ishim with the same difference to R is 45kya and Fumane with 3 mutations is from around 40kya.  The recent Ranis paper also suggest that one of the sample's mtdna, which is dated between 45-50kya, has only 1 mutation away from R.

[Capsian20]

Most branches under haplogroup R0 have about 14 mutations from R0 to present day (incl private mutations where applicable).  Subclades of V are no exception and that probably means they have a somewhat stable mutation rate.  With usually 8 mutations under V until present day, that means that V's TMRCA is about 20kya +-5kya.  V25 in turn has only 1 mutation from V, so there's no way its TMRCA is below 10kya.  As an aside the mutation rates that appears stable under R0 means that R0 TMRCA is probably between 35-40kya which is quite young considering that R0 is only two mutations removed from R, while Ust-Ishim with the same difference to R is 45kya and Fumane with 3 mutations is from around 40kya.  The recent Ranis paper also suggest that one of the sample's mtdna, which is dated between 45-50kya, has only 1 mutation away from R.

Yes because it seems to me age Haplogroup V and even HV isn't logic in Tree MTfull and in FTDNA too
I believe age Haplogroup V is 10.000 years and age Haplogroup HV around 20.000 years

[JonikW]

This samples Ancient belonged a Haplogroup V in site SNP Tracker

Capsian, can you please send me a link to where you got this on SNP Tracker or tell me where I can see it? I've also been thinking a lot about scenarios for my own V line and have asked FTDNA if they can finally move me from V to V78. YFull gave me that assignment after finding three other testers in anonymised medical papers. One of those samples is from Tunisia but the origins of the others aren't known. So that Tunisian sample is the only V78 tester with an identified origin in the public domain, along with me (Wales).

It's frustrating that so many aDNA papers have ignored the coding region so we might have ancient V matches that we're not aware of that were assigned HV0, but I'd still like to see all the ancient samples that we have in any case. 

This is my FTDNA full sequence matches map, which I've often pondered. I have no matches at all at the HVR2 level.



I can see many potential scenarios for my foremother’s arrival in Britain based on this sparse evidence. I have a single orange 1-step match from the south of France (there's also one from England that isn't on the map) and a number of yellow 2-step matches including many in Scandinavia. If we're looking at Medieval/Early Medieval for some of these then a Norman or Norse origin might be possible for me. There was some Norman activity in the region around Tunisia so that might fit with my lone match too.

But we've often shared our doubts about the V TMRCA estimates and I've started to think that these matches are actually all way, way back into prehistory, around the Neolithic period. That might also be supported by my fellow V78 Tunisian, the prevalence of modern testers in Scandinavia, and the movement from southern areas into the north recently identified by McColl et al for the later first millennium AD.

If this is correct I think we're looking at a Neolithic farmer scenario for V78 (which would also fit with the bulk of the evidence for the spread of V as a whole). I'd guess somewhere in the LBK area that could conceivably result in eventual marrying out as far as Britain (in the Neolithic/Beaker period or later in my case) and Tunisia as well as a movement of many of the ancestors of my more distant connections from the southern Celtic and Germanic areas up into Scandinavia over time.

Any other ideas from anyone would be much appreciated. I always enjoy speculating while hoping for further evidence. Getting FTDNA to acknowledge V78 would be a welcome start.

ADD: I'd also be interested to see your own map, Capsian, and those of others in our haplogroup if anyone feels like sharing.

[Capsian20]

This samples Ancient belonged a Haplogroup V in site SNP Tracker

Capsian, can you please send me a link to where you got this on SNP Tracker or tell me where I can see it? I've also been thinking a lot about scenarios for my own V line and have asked FTDNA if they can finally move me from V to V78. YFull gave me that assignment after finding three other testers in anonymised medical papers. One of those samples is from Tunisia but the origins of the others aren't known. So that Tunisian sample is the only V78 tester with an identified origin in the public domain, along with me (Wales).

It's frustrating that so many aDNA papers have ignored the coding region so we might have ancient V matches that we're not aware of that were assigned HV0, but I'd still like to see all the ancient samples that we have in any case. 

This is my FTDNA full sequence matches map, which I've often pondered. I have no matches at all at the HVR2 level.



I can see many potential scenarios for my foremother’s arrival in Britain based on this sparse evidence. I have a single orange 1-step match from the south of France (there's also one from England that isn't on the map) and a number of yellow 2-step matches including many in Scandinavia. If we're looking at Medieval/Early Medieval for some of these then a Norman or Norse origin might be possible for me. There was some Norman activity in the region around Tunisia so that might fit with my lone match too.

But we've often shared our doubts about the V TMRCA estimates and I've started to think that these matches are actually all way, way back into prehistory, around the Neolithic period. That might also be supported by my fellow V78 Tunisian, the prevalence of modern testers in Scandinavia, and the movement from southern areas into the north recently identified by McColl et al for the later first millennium AD.

If this is correct I think we're looking at a Neolithic farmer scenario for V78 (which would also fit with the bulk of the evidence for the spread of V as a whole). I'd guess somewhere in the LBK area that could conceivably result in eventual marrying out as far as Britain (in the Neolithic/Beaker period or later in my case) and Tunisia as well as a movement of many of the ancestors of my more distant connections from the southern Celtic and Germanic areas up into Scandinavia over time.

Any other ideas from anyone would be much appreciated. I always enjoy speculating while hoping for further evidence. Getting FTDNA to acknowledge V78 would be a welcome start.

ADD: I'd also be interested to see your own map, Capsian, and those of others in our haplogroup if anyone feels like sharing.

Yes of course this link site SNP Tracker
http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

[Capsian20]

Well TMRCA mtDNA Hg V isn't accurate Unfortunately , i was created Map migration of subclades Hg V if i found it i will posted

[Capsian20]

I created this Map now this Map of Hg V , my pleasure to open discussion about this Map
@JonikW
   

[JonikW]

This samples Ancient belonged a Haplogroup V in site SNP Tracker

Capsian, can you please send me a link to where you got this on SNP Tracker or tell me where I can see it? I've also been thinking a lot about scenarios for my own V line and have asked FTDNA if they can finally move me from V to V78. YFull gave me that assignment after finding three other testers in anonymised medical papers. One of those samples is from Tunisia but the origins of the others aren't known. So that Tunisian sample is the only V78 tester with an identified origin in the public domain, along with me (Wales).

It's frustrating that so many aDNA papers have ignored the coding region so we might have ancient V matches that we're not aware of that were assigned HV0, but I'd still like to see all the ancient samples that we have in any case. 

This is my FTDNA full sequence matches map, which I've often pondered. I have no matches at all at the HVR2 level.



I can see many potential scenarios for my foremother’s arrival in Britain based on this sparse evidence. I have a single orange 1-step match from the south of France (there's also one from England that isn't on the map) and a number of yellow 2-step matches including many in Scandinavia. If we're looking at Medieval/Early Medieval for some of these then a Norman or Norse origin might be possible for me. There was some Norman activity in the region around Tunisia so that might fit with my lone match too.

But we've often shared our doubts about the V TMRCA estimates and I've started to think that these matches are actually all way, way back into prehistory, around the Neolithic period. That might also be supported by my fellow V78 Tunisian, the prevalence of modern testers in Scandinavia, and the movement from southern areas into the north recently identified by McColl et al for the later first millennium AD.

If this is correct I think we're looking at a Neolithic farmer scenario for V78 (which would also fit with the bulk of the evidence for the spread of V as a whole). I'd guess somewhere in the LBK area that could conceivably result in eventual marrying out as far as Britain (in the Neolithic/Beaker period or later in my case) and Tunisia as well as a movement of many of the ancestors of my more distant connections from the southern Celtic and Germanic areas up into Scandinavia over time.

Any other ideas from anyone would be much appreciated. I always enjoy speculating while hoping for further evidence. Getting FTDNA to acknowledge V78 would be a welcome start.

ADD: I'd also be interested to see your own map, Capsian, and those of others in our haplogroup if anyone feels like sharing.

Yes of course this link site SNP Tracker
http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

Thanks Capsian. I'm probably just being stupid but I can't see how you get a list of ancient samples from that link.

[JonikW]

I created this Map now this Map of Hg V , my pleasure to open discussion about this Map
@JonikW

I reckon you've got as good a picture of V as we can currently get with this map. Nice work.

[Capsian20]

Capsian, can you please send me a link to where you got this on SNP Tracker or tell me where I can see it? I've also been thinking a lot about scenarios for my own V line and have asked FTDNA if they can finally move me from V to V78. YFull gave me that assignment after finding three other testers in anonymised medical papers. One of those samples is from Tunisia but the origins of the others aren't known. So that Tunisian sample is the only V78 tester with an identified origin in the public domain, along with me (Wales).

It's frustrating that so many aDNA papers have ignored the coding region so we might have ancient V matches that we're not aware of that were assigned HV0, but I'd still like to see all the ancient samples that we have in any case. 

This is my FTDNA full sequence matches map, which I've often pondered. I have no matches at all at the HVR2 level.



I can see many potential scenarios for my foremother’s arrival in Britain based on this sparse evidence. I have a single orange 1-step match from the south of France (there's also one from England that isn't on the map) and a number of yellow 2-step matches including many in Scandinavia. If we're looking at Medieval/Early Medieval for some of these then a Norman or Norse origin might be possible for me. There was some Norman activity in the region around Tunisia so that might fit with my lone match too.

But we've often shared our doubts about the V TMRCA estimates and I've started to think that these matches are actually all way, way back into prehistory, around the Neolithic period. That might also be supported by my fellow V78 Tunisian, the prevalence of modern testers in Scandinavia, and the movement from southern areas into the north recently identified by McColl et al for the later first millennium AD.

If this is correct I think we're looking at a Neolithic farmer scenario for V78 (which would also fit with the bulk of the evidence for the spread of V as a whole). I'd guess somewhere in the LBK area that could conceivably result in eventual marrying out as far as Britain (in the Neolithic/Beaker period or later in my case) and Tunisia as well as a movement of many of the ancestors of my more distant connections from the southern Celtic and Germanic areas up into Scandinavia over time.

Any other ideas from anyone would be much appreciated. I always enjoy speculating while hoping for further evidence. Getting FTDNA to acknowledge V78 would be a welcome start.

ADD: I'd also be interested to see your own map, Capsian, and those of others in our haplogroup if anyone feels like sharing.

Yes of course this link site SNP Tracker
http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

Thanks Capsian. I'm probably just being stupid but I can't see how you get a list of ancient samples from that link.

No problem here you will find samples ancient Hg V
   

[Capsian20]

I created this Map now this Map of Hg V , my pleasure to open discussion about this Map
@JonikW

I reckon you've got as good a picture of V as we can currently get with this map. Nice work.

Thank you its only my guess possible true possible false
I hope in future found samples Hg V more 6000 B.C