On the topic of the figures showing the environmental, dietary and ancestry shifts in Denmark throughout the ages, there does not appear to be any major differences between that in the old pre-print and the new (presumably final) version. Aside from the choice of colours. It might have been useful to include the samples from Southern Sweden as well, but I can see why that might have made the graphs too extensive and hard to digest.
It's nice to see that they kept the multidisciplinary approach, with the pollen analysis still included, even as the study was split into several smaller ones. I can't wait to see the supplementary information, in hopes that they may elaborate a little on the changes they made in regards to where they believe the I1 carriers came from.
I hope this is not what it looks like... I have talked quite a lot to some of the authors behind this study over the years. In 2019-2020, I presented a hypothesis to them and to others where I argued that I1 was part of the PWC horizon, but that their ancestry, material culture and beliefs was different from other PWC groups that we know of. I argued that this group had been integrated into the PWC horizon due to their shared WHG/SHG origins. One thing I focused on back then was pot shards with humanoid figures with raised hands and humanoid figurines with raised hands that have been found in Uppland (eastern Sweden) and in Scania, but also further east. My argument was that the petroglyphs from the Bronze Age of humanoid figures with raised hands was a continuation of similar cultural expressions and beliefs found among the subset of the PWC horizon that had made these pots and figurines, and that these influences came from further east. I argued that this group had migrated southward along the east coast of Sweden until they reached northeastern Scania where they traveled inland along the rivers of northern Scania from the east to west via Lake Ringsjön until they reached the west coast of Scania where they traveled northward along the west coast of Sweden. I argued that these migrations mainly took place 2400-2200 BCE based on the dating of the pot shards found in Scania. They may have reached Västergötland a century later. I argued that I1 is connected to the myths about the Aesir and the Vanir, the latter being I1. I further argued that these myths ultimately can be traced back to interactions between I1 groups and Battle Axe-derived groups in Scania which in turn set off the pre-Proto-Germanic phase we know of as the Nordic Bronze Age. Pretty much everyone counter signaled me. Back then everyone said that I1 was connected to the Bell Beakers. Now some of these individuals are trying to act like they never said those things. One person who did not counter signal me was Sturla Ellingvåg who a year later launched his own version where he argued that I1 originated in northwestern Scandinavia and that I1 was linked to the myths about the Jotuns. I stuck by my hypothesis until some of the scholars behind this study criticized it. I have a lot of respect for some of these scholars, so I removed the part about PWC but kept the rest. When OST003 with pre-i1 showed up in northern Germany, it seemed to indicate that I had been wrong, so I accepted my defeat and tried to incorporate these new pieces of evidence into my already existing hypothesis. Now, it seems that I may have been right after all...
Here is one of the texts that I used to construct my original hypothesis...
A short summary in English for you who do not understand Swedish:
"Finds of potsherds on which human figures are scratched have been made occasionally in the Pitted-Ware Culture settlements in Scania. Seven potsherds with human figures are known from four settlements: The outflow of Lake Ringsjö, parish of Munkarp; Vanneberga no. 4, settlement II, parish of Trolle-Ljungby; Jonstorp M2, parish of Jonstorp; Möllehusen, parish of Gualöv. An uncertain find-spot has been recorded in Uppland (Mjölkbo no. 5, parish of Österunda). This specific group of finds has no equivalent in Scandinavia. On the basis of relative chronology and the stratigraphic situation, the date of the pitted-ware settlements can be fixed at Middle Neolithic I-II (2800-2200 B.C). An absolute chronology may be based on the course of the littoral transgression in Siretorp and on a carbon-14 dating. Charcoal from Möllehusen 1974 (excavations by the author) has been dated to 2700±95 B.C. (Lu-973). This agrees chronologically with littoral transgression V in Blekinge. The date of earliest phase of the Pitted-Ware Culture in both Scania and central Sweden has been determined at Middle Neolithic I (2800-2600 B.C). Scratched human figures are usually executed with a long, deep line and four short oblique lines. Four variants may be distinguished (fig. 12). Human figures on pottery are regarded as symbolic signs, not as parts of the ornaments. Connection with the plastic figure sculptures has been demonstrated. A similar material is known from the Comb-Pottery Culture in the SSSR, dated to the Ka II phase, 3500-2800 B.C. (see figs. 12, 13). A certain connection with scratched human and animal figures on stone objects from north Sweden, Finland and Poland has been observed. The scratched human figures appear in the Pitted-Ware Culture settlements in Scania dated to Middle Neolithic I-II and in the comb-ware find-spots in the SSSR dating from Early Neolithic and Middle Neolithic I."
Interesting theory! Personally, I also abandoned the SHG origin for I1 when I became aware of Mr. OST003. That being said though I think only the island of Gotland had male Pitted Ware samples that were tested for their dna? Difficult to make definitive generalizations based on only one Pitted Ware location. Definitely, a lot of other areas for I1 to live in the region. That being said though I think modern Scandinavians have very little SHG autosomal dna so many questions still arise such as when modern I1 diverged apart from OST003 and how I1 became the dominant haplogroup despite their SHG autosomal dna not being dominant?
(01-08-2024, 04:41 PM)MrI1 Wrote: That being said though I think only the island of Gotland had male Pitted Ware samples that were tested for their dna? Difficult to make definitive generalizations based on only one Pitted Ware location. Definitely, a lot of other areas for I1 to live in the region.
It's worth mentioning that Allentoft 2022 had a few Pitted Ware samples from the mainland as well. So far, there is no indication that the pre-I1 progenitor of M253 is to be found in the PWC. But then again, as SeriesOfExtraordinaryEvents mentioned on the last page, Pitted Ware in more remote places like Åland remains unsampled for the time being. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.
Thanks for the additional information regarding Pitted Ware samples. I was unaware of the mainland samples. I will say this though about Haplogroup I1. It seems to have always had little proficiency compared to Haplogroup I2 prior to the Late Neolithic / Bronze Age and seems to have lived in areas with Haplogroup I2 despite there being no evidence.
For example, Haplogroup I1 most likely diverged apart from Haplogroup I2 at the start of the Last Glacial Maximum around 27,000 years ago, wintered in the Balkans refuge, and then spread westward south of the Alps with the Epigravettians until they reached Spain similar to Haplogroup I2. However, we have zero I1 samples from 27,000-13,000 years ago in the Balkans and Italy. I1 would then spread through Europe with the Oberkassel Cluster (WHG) similar to I2 but I2 dominates the archeological record for WHG samples and SHG samples.
Based on the aforementioned information I think it’s quite possible for SHG I1 despite the current lack of evidence.
Thanks for the additional information regarding Pitted Ware samples. I was unaware of the mainland samples. I will say this though about Haplogroup I1. It seems to have always had little proficiency compared to Haplogroup I2 prior to the Late Neolithic / Bronze Age and seems to have lived in areas with Haplogroup I2 despite there being no evidence.
For example, Haplogroup I1 most likely diverged apart from Haplogroup I2 at the start of the Last Glacial Maximum around 27,000 years ago, wintered in the Balkans refuge, and then spread westward south of the Alps with the Epigravettians until they reached Spain similar to Haplogroup I2. However, we have zero I1 samples from 27,000-13,000 years ago in the Balkans and Italy. I1 would then spread through Europe with the Oberkassel Cluster (WHG) similar to I2 but I2 dominates the archeological record for WHG samples and SHG samples.
Based on the aforementioned information I think it’s quite possible for SHG I1 despite the current lack of evidence.
I definitely agree with you there. Everything from the phylogenetic structure of M253 to the ancient DNA record strongly suggests that the history of I1 as we know it began, as you say, in the LNBA. Given how extraordinarily bottlenecked pre-I1 was, it is indeed likely that the best we can hope for is to find it as a rare lineage in cultures where other paternal lineages made up the majority, before I1 underwent its immense increase in frequency in the LNBA. I will say that I'm completely open to the possibility of that small group (or even lone survivor) having been hidden away somewhere around the many islands in the Baltic Sea, especially in light of the isotope data presented by Naudigastir earlier in this thread, and the claims of Allentoft. Speaking of the latter, we sure have been waiting some time for that study Hopefully our patience will soon be rewarded.
On a different note, does anyone know if the people over at FTDNA have resumed their work after the holidays? I remember JMcB mentioning that they were to take a break with the analysis of ancient samples. I have been quite eager to see the samples from Olalde et al. 2023 added to the Time Tree! It's quite remarkable how much the I1 Time Tree has grown since it was first introduced. Scrolling down the tree now is amazing, they truly are doing an excellent job.
Thanks for the additional information regarding Pitted Ware samples. I was unaware of the mainland samples. I will say this though about Haplogroup I1. It seems to have always had little proficiency compared to Haplogroup I2 prior to the Late Neolithic / Bronze Age and seems to have lived in areas with Haplogroup I2 despite there being no evidence.
For example, Haplogroup I1 most likely diverged apart from Haplogroup I2 at the start of the Last Glacial Maximum around 27,000 years ago, wintered in the Balkans refuge, and then spread westward south of the Alps with the Epigravettians until they reached Spain similar to Haplogroup I2. However, we have zero I1 samples from 27,000-13,000 years ago in the Balkans and Italy. I1 would then spread through Europe with the Oberkassel Cluster (WHG) similar to I2 but I2 dominates the archeological record for WHG samples and SHG samples.
Based on the aforementioned information I think it’s quite possible for SHG I1 despite the current lack of evidence.
I definitely agree with you there. Everything from the phylogenetic structure of M253 to the ancient DNA record strongly suggests that the history of I1 as we know it began, as you say, in the LNBA. Given how extraordinarily bottlenecked pre-I1 was, it is indeed likely that the best we can hope for is to find it as a rare lineage in cultures where other paternal lineages made up the majority, before I1 underwent its immense increase in frequency in the LNBA. I will say that I'm completely open to the possibility of that small group (or even lone survivor) having been hidden away somewhere around the many islands in the Baltic Sea, especially in light of the isotope data presented by Naudigastir earlier in this thread, and the claims of Allentoft. Speaking of the latter, we sure have been waiting some time for that study Hopefully our patience will soon be rewarded.
On a different note, does anyone know if the people over at FTDNA have resumed their work after the holidays? I remember JMcB mentioning that they were to take a break with the analysis of ancient samples. I have been quite eager to see the samples from Olalde et al. 2023 added to the Time Tree! It's quite remarkable how much the I1 Time Tree has grown since it was first introduced. Scrolling down the tree now is amazing, they truly are doing an excellent job.
According to an exchange Göran had on the Big Y Facebook page last week. Olalde et al 2023: “is up next and should be added in the next few weeks”.
And I agree, they are doing an excellent job over there!
@MrI1 @JMcB Thanks for the updates, gents! It's great to hear Olalde's samples are up next.
I have now read the study. It is a joy to see it published at last, given that we've waited since May 2022. I must confess that I was disappointed to see that there was no elaboration in regards to the "deep" and ultimate origins of I1. It remains something of an enigma.
edit: "The rapid increase in frequency of this haplogroup and associated genome-wide ancestry coincides with increase in human mobility seen in Swedish Sr isotope data, suggesting an influx of people from eastern or northeastern regions of Scandinavia, and the emergence of stone cist burials in Southern Sweden, which were also introduced in eastern Denmark during that period."
I haven't read the whole study yet, but it appears that this crucial text passage has not changed since the preprint. Footnote 54 links to a study performed by Malou Blank, as Naudigastir has pointed out. I have read the dissertation of Blank dealing with the topic ( "Mobility, Subsistence and Mortuary practices. An interdisciplinary study of Neolithic and Early Bronze Age megalithic populations of southwestern Sweden" - http://uu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva...TEXT01.pdf ), an interesting text in many aspects. It deals with burial practise in the very location and time when the first I1 men turn up in Sweden. At this time, the phenomenon of "gallery graves" comes up in the region and might, for that, be linked to y-haplogroup I1. However, I didn't find a reference to "eastern or northeastern Scandinavia" there; instead she just states that there has been migration from outside Falbygden:
"The high non-local (outside VG) ratios of the Late Neolithic-Early Bronze Age burials only occur east or northeast of Falbygden and in eastern Sweden."
So it remains an open question on what information Allentoft's "Eastern or northeastern Scandinavia" is based.
(01-13-2024, 11:35 PM)Awood Wrote: Looks like the Neolithic Denmark one is out now. ... Anyone with deep knowledge on Scandinavia might finally be able to solve the R1b vs I1 riddle in Germanic populations?
From the paper:
LNBA phase II: an intermediate stage largely coinciding with the Dagger epoch (around 4,300–3,700 cal. BP), in which Danish individuals cluster with central and western European LNBA individuals dominated by males with distinct sub-lineages of R1b-L513 (Extended Data Fig. 8c,d). Among them are individuals from Borreby (NEO735, 737) and Madesø (NEO752).
LNBA phase III: a final stage from around 4,000 cal. BP onwards, in which a distinct cluster of Scandinavian individuals dominated by males with I1 Y-haplogroups appears (Extended Data Fig. 8e). Y chromosome haplogroup I1 is one of the dominant haplogroups in present-day Scandinavians, and we here document its earliest occurrence in an approximately 4,000-year-old individual from Falköping in southern Sweden (NEO220). The rapid increase in frequency of this haplogroup and associated genome-wide ancestry coincides with increase in human mobility seen in Swedish Sr isotope data, suggesting an influx of people from eastern or northeastern regions of Scandinavia, and the emergence of stone cist burials in Southern Sweden 60, which were also introduced in eastern Denmark during that period 54,61.
... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-06862-3
When also looking at this useful comment (at least for me):
(01-08-2024, 10:36 PM)MrI1 Wrote: @Strider99
Thanks for the additional information regarding Pitted Ware samples. I was unaware of the mainland samples. I will say this though about Haplogroup I1. It seems to have always had little proficiency compared to Haplogroup I2 prior to the Late Neolithic / Bronze Age and seems to have lived in areas with Haplogroup I2 despite there being no evidence.
For example, Haplogroup I1 most likely diverged apart from Haplogroup I2 at the start of the Last Glacial Maximum around 27,000 years ago, wintered in the Balkans refuge, and then spread westward south of the Alps with the Epigravettians until they reached Spain similar to Haplogroup I2. However, we have zero I1 samples from 27,000-13,000 years ago in the Balkans and Italy. I1 would then spread through Europe with the Oberkassel Cluster (WHG) similar to I2 but I2 dominates the archeological record for WHG samples and SHG samples.
Based on the aforementioned information I think it’s quite possible for SHG I1 despite the current lack of evidence.
So does the analysis of the new Denmark etc. samples allow any substantial refinement regarding the pre I-M253 origin?
I must admit until now I did not read about SHG but I do not understand what is making SHG pre I-M253 more likely then WHG pre I-M253: proportionally less aDNA from SHG?
01-14-2024, 04:58 PM (This post was last modified: 01-14-2024, 04:59 PM by Awood.)
Common sense would dictate that Pitted Ware were I1 and TRB were I2, but I know that there have been papers suggesting Pitted Ware were I2 as well. That said they overlapped in territory and were at one time contemporary. Perhaps there were groups of I1 Pitted Ware further north that we don't have any aDNA for and wound up being successors in eastern Scandinavia during the Bronze Age. I reckon that hunter-gatherers would have a survival advantage in more rugged climates anyhow. I just gave this one a read.
I guess it depends on what we mean by SHG? I definitely don’t think that the forefathers of Mr. I1 were some of the first WHG to enter Scandinavia after the Last Ice Age to mix with EHG like our distant cousin SF11. Mr. OST003 and modern I1 most likely diverged apart later than the aforementioned timeframe perhaps with the Ertebølle Culture? Perhaps when farming was introduced into Northern Europe the forefathers of modern I1 moved north and east to avoid them living amongst SHG? Personally, I don’t think there’s enough evidence either way to make any definitive conclusions and am open to a wide range of possible scenarios.
Some interesting Falköping-related news here that I think we haven't had. It's from a site that's early in relation to modern I1 at about 3,500 BCE. We'll be getting aDNA, so it will be interesting to compare these people with the later Falköping ones:
“Last summer, archaeologists from Gothenburg University and Kiel University excavated a dolmen, a stone burial chamber, in Tiarp near Falköping in Sweden. The archaeologists judge that the grave has remained untouched since the Stone Age. First analysis results now confirm that the grave in Tiarp is one of the oldest stone burial chambers in Sweden…
“A number of samples were taken at the excavation last summer, including DNA from the skeletal remains.
"The preliminary DNA results show that the DNA in the bones is well preserved. This means we will be able to reconstruct the family relationships between the people in the grave and we are working on that now," says [archaeologist Karl-Göran] Sjögren.”
03-06-2024, 05:29 PM (This post was last modified: 03-06-2024, 05:34 PM by JMcB.)
I just noticed this post from Göran Runström on the Big Y Facebook page:
Here is an interesting new paper by Laffranchi et al.: "Until death do us part". A multidisciplinary study on human- Animal co- burials from the Late Iron Age necropolis of Seminario Vescovile in Verona (Northern Italy, 3rd-1st c. BCE)
The samples are attributed to the Cenomane (Gaul/Celtic) culture and Y-DNA haplogroups could be called for 7 of the men in the study. The private variants of one Big Y customer matches the man who was co-buried with a dog and they form a new branch as a result.
FTDNA's phylogenetic specialist Michael Sager just provided the detailed Y-DNA haplogroup assignments:
US 2894 - buried with domesticated pig food offering
I2-P215>CTS2257>L460>P214>M223>P222>CTS616>FGC15071>BY1003>L1229>S18331>Y39658 (I-Y39658)
US 3190 - buried with domesticated pig food offering
R1b-M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>Z290>L21>S552>DF13>Z39589>S1026>A1108>A1109>A1110
R-A1110 (splits branch and moves to R-A1124)
US 3231 - buried with domesticated pig food offering
R1b-M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>Z46516>ZZ11>U152>Z56>BY3548>Z43>Z46>Z48>CTS12976>S4634>Y225624>FT83928
R-FT83928 (splits branch and moves to R-BY167432)
US 3277 - co-buried with domesticated dog
R1b-M269>L23>L51>PF7589>CTS10379>CTS6889>Z2120>FGC48821>S1141>CTS11824>CTS11659>Z6817>Y16632
R-Y16632 (Forms new branch R-BY73448 with an American Big Y customer)
US 3948 - co-buried with domesticated horse
R1b-M343 (low coverage)
US 3251 - buried with sheep/goat food offering
I-M253
US 3159 - buried with domesticated pig food offering
R1b-M269>L23>L51>P310>L151>P312>Z46516>ZZ11>U152>L2>DF110>Y3964>MF100284>BY25318>BY25320 (R-BY25320)
![[Image: d2vszzb.jpg]](https://i.imgur.com/d2vszzb.jpg)
![[Image: ImQRWiW.png]](https://i.imgur.com/ImQRWiW.png)
Hopefully our patience will soon be rewarded. 
