Germanic art, artefacts and runes, BC-AD; news & discussion

[Rodoorn]

@Jonik, wow real monkish work!

Just wondering why did he pick and choose the Cimbri and Charydes and Semnones among many others?

Interesting question Rodoorn. As the notes for what I added today suggest, the Charydes seem to be the Charudes mentioned by Ptolemy, who were to the east of the Cimbri in Jutland. So if we take the order used by Augustus and start with the Cimbri, then move on to the Charudes (or Herudes) and end with the Semnones, I think we're potentially seeing a rounding of Jutland by the fleet that we know sailed up the west coast of the peninsula under Tiberius while Augustus was emperor. 

While that rounding of Jutland is speculative because we don't know how far the fleet reached (I mentioned this in a post at the weekend) it can at least be inferred from the finds of early Roman goods at elite sites if you choose to interpret the evidence that way. This was the most significant early Roman contact with northern “Barbaricum” but I suspect it would be at least a generation before they gained the familiarity with areas further north in Scandinavia that Tacitus shows.

Ok clear! But the interesting thing is that the Semnones were at that time a tribe between middle Elbe and Havel pretty deep "land inwards", the Angli and Warini were at that time still not as most dominant in the picture?

To try to shed some light on this I'll take a closer look here at Augustus’ decision to name those three tribes, including the Semnones, and ignore others. But first of all I'm not sure how confident we can be of where the boundaries of the Semnones lay. Here's Schütte again on the sources for the Suebi, including the Semnones, and I think you'll see what I mean:

“We notice various important points of agreement. (a) Strabo and Ptolemy agree that the Swabians extend from the Rhine beyond the Elbe; Tacitus does not mention the Rhine, but agrees with the extension beyond the Elbe. (b) All three declare that Semnones and Langobards are Swabian. (e) Strabo and Tacitus include Ermundures, Marcomans, Quadi. (d) Tacitus and Ptolemy also include Angles. (e) Strabo, Tacitus, and Ptolemy exclude Cimbri, Chauchi, Cherusci, Chatthi. (f) Tacitus begins his Swabian list with Semnones, Langobards, and Anglo-Jutic tribes, whereas Ptolemy emphasises the Swabian origin of Semnones, Langobards, and Angles by excluding the remaining Swabians.”

Now I'll turn again to those three names. If we don't like the conjecture that Augustus may have listed the Cimbri, Charydes and Semnones in that order because they were possibly encountered in that very sequence by his fleet, then I can see an obvious alternative explanation for all three tribes being picked out.

The object of Augustus’ text was to glorify his own achievements. Hence it would be best to name tribes of the greatest possible fame so as to make those achievements appear as impressive as possible. 

In the case of the Cimbri, including them was a no brainer. That tribe had inflicted major defeats on Rome and seemed on the verge of invading Italy in the late second century BC; so here on the inscription we have that same people now writ large as submitting to the divine Augustus.

Likewise, while the Charudes may not be well known to us, that wasn't the case in Augustus' day. Those people had run up against Julius Caesar (who had also made Augustus his adopted son and heir). This is from Caesar’s book on the Gallic wars:

“But a worse fate, he went on to say, had befallen the victorious Sequani than the conquered Aedui. For the German king Ariovistus had settled in their territory and seized a third of their land – the best in all Gaul. And now he was bidding them evacuate another third, because a few months previously he had been joined by twenty-four thousand men of the Harudes, and must find them a home to settle in.”

Caesar has Ariovistus lay down a challenge that gives us a clue about what the fate of this upstart German and his Harudes allies will be when the battle comes: “Let him [Caesar] attack whenever he pleases. He will discover what German valour is capable of. We have never known defeat.”

Then, this is Caesar encouraging his fearful men before they confront Ariovistus and his allies including the Harudes (the latter tribe is named again by Caesar later when the battle comes):

“‘Our countrymen faced this enemy,’ he [Caesar] continued, ‘in our fathers’ time, when Gaius Marius won a victory over the Cimbri and Teutoni by which, as all agreed, the whole army earned as much glory as its commander.”

So, with that linking together of the Cimbri and Harudes, I think we've established why Augustus would cite those two tribes in his inscription. They were known and once feared names, and Augustus’ adopted father Caesar would have been proud of his achievement regarding them. If Augustus had written “The Angli, Warini and other peoples of the Germans of that same region through their envoys sought my friendship,” that would have looked like the submission of tiny, unheard-of, non-entities to his contemporary readers, although it might not to us.

Moving on, the Semnones likewise would have been far better known than the other Germanic tribes living in the area covered by Augustus' fleet and its mission. Here's Schütte again:

“1. Strabo, Tacitus, and Ptolemy all speak of Svebi Semnones. The position is emphasised, for Strabo mentions them as the only big nation among the Swabians; Tacitus puts them first on the list, 'vetustissimi et nobilissimi Sveborum...Sveborum caput'; Ptolemy selects them as one of the three divisions of the Swabians; their fame is shown by his wrong spelling of a Gaulish tribe in Italy, Semnones being written for Senones (III, 1, § 44).”

So I think that would all explain the citing of those three tribes if we don't like speculation around the extent of the fleet’s voyage. By the end of the first century AD, when Augustus' inscriptions had already entered history, Rome's knowledge of the most northerly tribes had expanded to include not only Jutland and the Danish islands but the Suiones and others even further north than Jutland who Tacitus knows and discusses in “Germania”. Those are all the peoples of the “broad promontories and vast islands” in the famous opening passage of his book:

"1. Germania is separated from the Gauls and from the Raeti and Pannonii by the Rhine and Danube rivers,1 from the Sarmatians and Dacians2 by the barrier of mutual fear or mountain ranges. The other parts, with their broad promontories and vast islands, are surrounded by the Ocean; in recent times war has revealed the existence there of nations and kings unknown before."

Thanks Jonik, I like to add, Wolfram (1999):
"The Semnones administered the Suebian origins of the tribal group, initia gentis, where at the same time the supreme almighty God, regnator omnium deus, rules. Those peoples who adhere to the same. The people who felt they belonged to the community of descent, the sanguinis populi, sent their ambassadors at fixed times to take part in the cult activities."

And Kruger (2022):
"It cannot be ruled out that Tacitus obtained his information regarding the Semnones first hand, because at least during his time as a senator under Emperor Domitian he would have had the opportunity to exchange ideas with Semnon dignitaries in Rome, since visits of this kind are for the term of office of the Domitian reports."

[Orentil]

Some news from Rendlesham (near Sutton Hoo):

Temple uncovered by archaeologists in Rendlesham in Suffolk

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/23938452.tem...m-suffolk/

[JonikW]

Some news from Rendlesham (near Sutton Hoo):

Temple uncovered by archaeologists in Rendlesham in Suffolk

https://www.eadt.co.uk/news/23938452.tem...m-suffolk/

This is truly exciting. If this really is a temple, given it’s at the royal site of Rendlesham it might actually be the one belonging to Rædwald, king of East Anglia and Bretwalda, who is the most likely candidate for the Sutton Hoo ship burial.

Bede discusses that very temple in his Ecclesiastical History:

“Rædwald had long before been initiated into the mysteries of the Christian faith in Kent, but in vain; for on his return home, he was seduced by his wife and by certain evil teachers and perverted from the sincerity of his faith, so that his last state was worse than his first. After the manner of the ancient Samaritans, he seemed to be serving both Christ and the gods whom he had previously served; in the same temple he had one altar for the Christian sacrifice and another small altar on which to offer victims to devils.”

ADD: Bede's story or something very like it does actually go a long way to explaining the mixed pagan and Christian nature of the Sutton Hoo mound finds. I'd also like to say that I'm glad to have inadvertently helped crowdfund that dig courtesy of the National Lottery Heritage Fund cash that made it happen. That's the great thing about the UK lottery: half the sales are donated to good causes like this. :-)

[Rodoorn]

Heathen and christianity was around the North Sea to some extent part of the clash between the Anglo-Saxons and Frankish realms. For sure in the Netherlands. And these difference between the Frankish and Anglo-Saxons leaved their traces until today, for sure in the language (c.q. Frankish area's can't understand much of my Friso-Saxon).

Johan Nicolay (2017) Power and Identity in the Southern North Sea Area
The Migration and Merovingian Periods

"An important event for the development of kingship in the southern North Sea area, starting in the late 4th century, is the migration of ‘Saxons’, ‘Angles’ and to a lesser extent probably also ‘Scandinavians’ to coasts of the northern Netherlands and south-eastern England. At this time the Dutch coastal areas were probably deserted or inhabited by no more than a small remnant of the Roman Period population (Nieuwhof 2011). Although it is generally assumed that a quite substantial part of the original population still inhabited south-eastern England, the widespread adoption of ‘Anglo-Saxon’ fashions is clear evidence of the arrival of new people in this area as well (e.g. Brugmann 1997b, 110–17). The situation was diferent in northern Germany, or at least in the northern Elbe–Weser region, where not the Late Roman but the Merovingian Period was a time of population decline and in some areas even depopulation (Nösler and Wolters 2009).

Despite their diferent traditions and habitation histories, it was the common background of the ‘Anglo-Saxon’ newcomers and their relations to their homelands that tied the southern North Sea regions together in the following centuries – as is clearly relected in the execution of high-status ornaments.
Although the size of the migrating groups and their precise origin are still heavily debated, the process of early-medieval ‘power formation’ in the coastal areas of southeastern England and the Netherlands was initiated or at least accelerated by the new arrivals. Archaeologically, the irst stage of this process is visible in the appearance of ‘Saxon’ brooches, made of silver or copper alloy. While the number of inds from England and the Netherlands is too small to reveal any regional paterning, the distribution of equal-armed and saucer brooches within northern Germany can be related to the formation of a regional kingdom. The distribution of this regionally speciic, ‘Saxon’ jewellery probably relects the extent of an elite network covering the area between the Lower
Weser to the west, the Lower Elbe to the east and the Middle Weser to the south (Fig. 5.2). These ornaments are a direct outcome of the low of Late Roman silver that had been paid mainly to regional leaders north of the limes to create alliances with Rome;
ater melting down, part of the silver was transformed into equal-armed brooches, giving expression to the political bond with Rome on the one hand, and fulilling the need to express an indigenous, regional – or ‘Saxon’ – identity on the other.

The late 5th and 6th centuries saw the rise of a powerful elite in more westerly parts of the research areas as well; here, regional kingdoms can be reconstructed that were controlled from central places or central areas where clusters of gold bracteates have been found (Fig. 5.9): Sievern (northern Elbe–Weser region), northern Westergo, eastern Kent and northern Norfolk. In need of status symbols to give expression to their newly acquired positions, this elite chose to adopt jewellery from a new power block to the north-east: that of the Scandinavian kingdoms. The ornaments probably displayed a
true or fictional ancestral link with southern Scandinavia; in this way they became an important tool in the process of legitimizing the new status positions resulting from the rise of central places along the southern North Sea coast."



https://www.academia.edu/36208961/Power_...an_periods

[Kaltmeister]

Widespread steel making process in the north 2000 years ago
Published: 13 November 2023

In over 40 sites across an area that extends over northern Finland, Sweden and Norway, advanced iron and steel objects were produced and smithed by hunter-gatherer groups more than 2000 years ago. These completely new findings about widespread advanced iron and steel production are presented in a new doctoral thesis which may change the current European and global historiography. The findings are made by researchers at Luleå University of Technology.

https://www.ltu.se/research/subjects/His...34216?l=en

---

Here is also a German article refering to the topic:

Produktion von Stahl im Norden schon vor 2000 Jahren

https://aid-magazin.de/2023/11/15/produk...BcU7j0Ujz4

[Orentil]

Widespread steel making process in the north 2000 years ago
Published: 13 November 2023

In over 40 sites across an area that extends over northern Finland, Sweden and Norway, advanced iron and steel objects were produced and smithed by hunter-gatherer groups more than 2000 years ago. These completely new findings about widespread advanced iron and steel production are presented in a new doctoral thesis which may change the current European and global historiography. The findings are made by researchers at Luleå University of Technology.

https://www.ltu.se/research/subjects/His...34216?l=en

---

Here is also a German article refering to the topic:

Produktion von Stahl im Norden schon vor 2000 Jahren

https://aid-magazin.de/2023/11/15/produk...BcU7j0Ujz4

So maybe this is the background of what we read in Völundarkviða about Wayland the Smith:

Bræðr váru þrír, synir Finnakonungs. Hét einn Slagfiðr, annarr Egill, þriði Völundr.

[Anglesqueville]

Widespread steel making process in the north 2000 years ago
Published: 13 November 2023

In over 40 sites across an area that extends over northern Finland, Sweden and Norway, advanced iron and steel objects were produced and smithed by hunter-gatherer groups more than 2000 years ago. These completely new findings about widespread advanced iron and steel production are presented in a new doctoral thesis which may change the current European and global historiography. The findings are made by researchers at Luleå University of Technology.

https://www.ltu.se/research/subjects/His...34216?l=en

---

Here is also a German article refering to the topic:

Produktion von Stahl im Norden schon vor 2000 Jahren

https://aid-magazin.de/2023/11/15/produk...BcU7j0Ujz4

Not a surprise for those who knew the article (2021) written by the author in collaboration with three other specialists (incl. E. Hjärtner-Holdar) " Hunter-gatherer metallurgy in the Early Iron Age of Northern Fennoscandia", https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/...6242A98C66 . I was waiting for this thesis with great impatience.

[Anglesqueville]

Widespread steel making process in the north 2000 years ago
Published: 13 November 2023

In over 40 sites across an area that extends over northern Finland, Sweden and Norway, advanced iron and steel objects were produced and smithed by hunter-gatherer groups more than 2000 years ago. These completely new findings about widespread advanced iron and steel production are presented in a new doctoral thesis which may change the current European and global historiography. The findings are made by researchers at Luleå University of Technology.

https://www.ltu.se/research/subjects/His...34216?l=en

---

Here is also a German article refering to the topic:

Produktion von Stahl im Norden schon vor 2000 Jahren

https://aid-magazin.de/2023/11/15/produk...BcU7j0Ujz4

I hope that those for whom this text was a discovery spent their night reading it. So what? Do you hear this noise everywhere in this study? This is the sound that historical dogmas make when they collapse.
edit: That said, this text is probably out of place on this thread. This deserves to be commented on, but elsewhere.

[JonikW]

From my point of view, please go ahead Angles, if you want to discuss it here: it's relevant and I think people would enjoy any discussion. I can see why you think it might merit a fuller examination elsewhere though.

Just a small update on the news in Orentil's recent post about the potential temple at Rendlesham. The professor quoted in that article appeared on BBC Radio 4 for a brief interview this morning.

He said nothing about the Rendlesham archaeological site as a whole that we didn’t know already, but there was a little additional info on the "temple". Regarding the reasons for identifying that structure as a cult site, the professor repeated his earlier comments about the robust nature of the construction but also said that the closest parallel in England is the site at Yeavering in Northumberland. (There's a good breakdown of the site at Yeavering here on Wikipedia.) He said that outside England, the Rendlesham structure resembles ‘cult houses’ in Scandinavia.

I thought the latter observation about Scandinavia was interesting considering the parallels between finds from the Sutton Hoo ship burial and Vendel-period Sweden, which have been much discussed over the years. It’s frustrating that the professor didn’t detail the similarities between the sites in question or say whether artefacts of any kind had been found in association with the "temple". But that would have been out of place on the Radio 4 Today programme, and I imagine it won’t be long before we find out more anyway.

Here’s a nice "reconstruction" of the Yeavering temple online, although I can’t vouch for its accuracy.

[Kaltmeister]

I hope that those for whom this text was a discovery spent their night reading it. So what? Do you hear this noise everywhere in this study? This is the sound that historical dogmas make when they collapse.
edit: That said, this text is probably out of place on this thread. This deserves to be commented on, but elsewhere.

edit: That said, this text is probably out of place on this thread. This deserves to be commented on, but elsewhere.

I'm not sure wether "Steel invention" belongs in the category of artifacts. If you have an idea where to discuss this topic, feel free to open a thread right there.

[Anglesqueville]

I hope that those for whom this text was a discovery spent their night reading it. So what? Do you hear this noise everywhere in this study? This is the sound that historical dogmas make when they collapse.
edit: That said, this text is probably out of place on this thread. This deserves to be commented on, but elsewhere.

edit: That said, this text is probably out of place on this thread. This deserves to be commented on, but elsewhere.

I'm not sure wether "Steel invention" belongs in the category of artifacts. If you have an idea where to discuss this topic, feel free to open a thread right there.

JonikW is very kind to invite me to comment on this thesis on his thread, and I thank him for it. But I agree with you; it would have nothing to do here. My schedule is too chaotic for me to get started on this, but when things get better I'll open a thread on the archaeological forum if no one has done so by then.

[Kaltmeister]

In case anyone hasn't found it yet - here is the doctoral thesis "Steel Making Hunter-Gatherers in Ancient Arctic Europe" by Carina Bennerhag (2023):

http://ltu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/div...TEXT02.pdf

[Rodoorn]

In case anyone hasn't found it yet - here is the doctoral thesis "Steel Making Hunter-Gatherers in Ancient Arctic Europe" by Carina Bennerhag (2023):

http://ltu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/div...TEXT02.pdf

Nice in depth analyses about Iron in Arctic Europe....now the link with Germanics. I know even in the Netherlands the Southern ones claim that it's arctic cold in Friesland/ North Dutch. And there is a famous saying in the Netherlands: "When it freezes, the Frisians thaw." But that's about it.....  So explain.

[JonikW]

In case anyone hasn't found it yet - here is the doctoral thesis "Steel Making Hunter-Gatherers in Ancient Arctic Europe" by Carina Bennerhag (2023):

http://ltu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/div...TEXT02.pdf

Nice in depth analyses about Iron in Arctic Europe....now the link with Germanics. I know even in the Netherlands the Southern ones claim that it's arctic cold in Friesland/ North Dutch. And there is a famous saying in the Netherlands: "When it freezes, the Frisians thaw." But that's about it.....  So explain.

Thanks to Kaltmeister and I think he's posted here because no one's set up a separate thread yet, which makes sense as a decision to me. I look forward to reading the thesis when I get time. Talking of freezing Frieslanders, I remember driving my family around some of the terp sites many years ago when we were staying in Bremen. It was a very cold day and I was amused when I realised my daughter, who was only a few years old at the time, thought the name she'd heard me calling the area was "freeze land". She asked very curiously if it was always "freezing" there. :-)

ADD: I also remember a nice old bloke passing us and giving the classic "Moin" greeting, which needed no translation as a morning greeting for someone from England, given how it can be pronounced here.

[Rodoorn]

In case anyone hasn't found it yet - here is the doctoral thesis "Steel Making Hunter-Gatherers in Ancient Arctic Europe" by Carina Bennerhag (2023):

http://ltu.diva-portal.org/smash/get/div...TEXT02.pdf

Nice in depth analyses about Iron in Arctic Europe....now the link with Germanics. I know even in the Netherlands the Southern ones claim that it's arctic cold in Friesland/ North Dutch. And there is a famous saying in the Netherlands: "When it freezes, the Frisians thaw." But that's about it.....  So explain.

Thanks to Kaltmeister and I think he's posted here because no one's set up a separate thread yet, which makes sense as a decision to me. I look forward to reading the thesis when I get time. Talking of freezing Frieslanders, I remember driving my family around some of the terp sites many years ago when we were staying in Bremen. It was a very cold day and I was amused when I realised my daughter, who was only a few years old at the time, thought the name she'd heard me calling the area was "freeze land". She asked very curiously if it was always "freezing" there. :-)

ADD: I also remember a nice old bloke passing us and giving the classic "Moin" greeting, which needed no translation as a morning greeting for someone from England, given how it can be pronounced here.

And then to imagine that in Groningen and Drenthe moin > moi And the (West)Frisians don't use such a word.

The reasons Frisians thaw with freezing weather is because this means skating!

Even Jazeera finds this amazing  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzUBjbYlkOA&t=1s

But with the climate change.....