About Proto-Germanic

[Rodoorn]

And the oldest rune (red star) hitertho found in Hole Norway, right besides number 1




https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/wo...index.html

Besides that with regard to the language development the central place of Gudme (black star) could be quite a hub!

http://vikingekult.natmus.dk/fileadmin/u...-libre.pdf

[JonikW]

And the oldest rune hitertho found in Hole Norway, right besides number 1




https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/wo...index.html

I've written a rundown on the evidence around that stone towards the end of my doc if anyone is interested -- the doc where I won't now be adding Angles' lost text. ;-) I predict that a runic inscription earlier than Svingerud will one day be found within the bounds of your map, perhaps even old and lengthy enough to add considerably to the PGmc debate.

[Rodoorn]

And the oldest rune hitertho found in Hole Norway, right besides number 1




https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/wo...index.html

I've written a rundown on the evidence around that stone towards the end of my doc if anyone is interested -- the doc where I won't now be adding Angles' lost text. ;-) I predict that a runic inscription earlier than Svingerud will one day be found within the bounds of your map, perhaps even old and lengthy enough to add considerably to the PGmc debate.

Ok thanks I will read it....meanwhile Angles is most probably writing a new version of the hoax/ furgery Oera Linda II at his attic 

[Rodoorn]

I would suggest that West Germanic is not totally a split of from NW Germanic but is more or less a separate lineage.

[Rodoorn]

So in the end I go with Seebold and Hines:

[JonikW]

And the oldest rune hitertho found in Hole Norway, right besides number 1




https://edition.cnn.com/style/article/wo...index.html

I've written a rundown on the evidence around that stone towards the end of my doc if anyone is interested -- the doc where I won't now be adding Angles' lost text. ;-) I predict that a runic inscription earlier than Svingerud will one day be found within the bounds of your map, perhaps even old and lengthy enough to add considerably to the PGmc debate.

Ok thanks I will read it....meanwhile Angles is most probably writing a new version of the hoax/ furgery Oera Linda II at his attic 

It was actually pretty funny now I realise it was a joke. Angles could have been the new Macpherson and kindled something like the Ossian fever of the late eighteenth century if he'd kept it up.

[Rodoorn]

@Jonik Some more fun, the ultimate Germanic pedigree!!!



And mark that at the bottom line Angles (Emden, Burgum) and I (friso-saxon to the bones) > we are - okay for half - in the same boat, you can decide who leans overboard.

I have said it earlier I long for the day that we sing this together (ok Irish song but ok hahahah):

[Anglesqueville]

Rodoorn, I am sure you can understand what I wrote if you just want to.
No point for me repeating it all again and again, so until you do understand what I wrote, no point to comment.

On second thought.

I think there are two things going on. My approach is a historical one and is different from the linguistic one. Especially in terms of how you approach a proto-language, such as proto-Germanic. Without sources a historian can do nothing. So if a linguist comes up with a proto language, a mutual loanword with another proto language, and thinks he can fix the language in time and place (= historical!!!), then hey! Because you actually need references from the time itself. This is not a proto language as such, runes for example emphatically are!

In addition, the place where you stand very much determines the view. Yours is determined from a Finnish place, mine from a Friso-Saxon perspective. For you - you can read it in everything you post here  - (the development of) Finnish is number 1. The rest - such as proto-Germanic - is secondary. Simply put, you observe that there are some Germanic loan words in Finnish, so Germanic must have been nearby. Case closed (simplified). 

I strongly disagree with the assertions presented. Firstly, it is imperative to rectify a formula grounded in a serious misinterpretation of linguistic evidence. The claim of 'some Germanic loanwords in Finnish' falls short, as there exists a comprehensive corpus of Germanic loanwords in Finnish. This corpus is stratified from the earliest stages, conceivably predating Proto-Germanic, extending through Proto-Scandinavian and subsequent phases. While not all strata are equally represented, this asymmetry yields intriguing observations, yet it does not create voids in the stratification.

Additionally, there exists a comparable, albeit quantitatively less significant, corpus of loans in the Saami branch, acquired independently from the Finnish branch. This distinct scenario sharply contrasts with the developments in other Indo-European branches. Personally, I posit that certain borrowings may have been locally assimilated and subsequently obscured, lost under the influence of groups preserving Uralian themes of origin.

Furthermore, our exploration of problematic etymologies remains incomplete. Notably, for the Finnish branch, the semantic spectrum covered by these borrowings is astonishing, both in its breadth and depth. The authors of 'Läglös' are justified in noting that, given our suspicion that proto-Finnish lacked coordinating words, it likely borrowed them from proto-Germanic.

Lastly, evidence supports the existence of ancient Germanic toponyms in Finland, exemplified by the Ahvenanmaa/Åland archipelago, as documented by Schalin. In this unique scenario, where no equivalent exists in any other Indo-European branch, the only plausible explanation is the presence of bilingual colonies.

An essential point to grasp is that the stratification of borrowings implies that these colonies maintained constant and close contact with the source of the Germanic borrowings. Consequently, this source could not have been situated far from the Finnish coast. We find ourselves in a potentially unparalleled situation where linguistic arguments alone decisively contribute to localizing not only a proto-language but an entire segment of linguistic evolution. This evolutionary span likely commenced centuries before the proto-language and extends through its dialectal stages.

[Orentil]

@Jonik Some more fun, the ultimate Germanic pedigree!!!

I have said it earlier I long for the day that we sing this together (ok Irish song but ok hahahah):

I would have bet that I am the only one here knowing the German version of this song ;-)

[Rodoorn]

@Jonik Some more fun, the ultimate Germanic pedigree!!!

I have said it earlier I long for the day that we sing this together (ok Irish song but ok hahahah):

I would have bet that I am the only one here knowing the German version of this song ;-)

Ganz und gar nicht!

I grew up close to the border (with: Die Sendung mit der Maus), the highest score on German in the Pre-university education (got a book from the German embassy for that  

My grandfather thought my a language that is very close to this one from the other side of the border, when I followed college in Lower Saxon the professor said to me, you talk Gronings like a man of 80 years old

[Orentil]

By the way, an uncle of mine lived in Westoverledingen, just on the other side of the border as a farmer. Not sure if he would have had a chance to understand your local dialect. I think they spoke rather Platt than Frisian, but you can judge better.

[Rodoorn]

By the way, an uncle of mine lived in Westoverledingen, just on the other side of the border as a farmer. Not sure if he would have had a chance to understand your local dialect. I think they spoke rather Platt than Frisian, but you can judge better.

Gewiss. That's Rheiderland like in the movie both indeed Friso-Saxon, Platt with Frisian substrate.

Although Westeroverledingen is just at the other side of the Ems (according to the Rheiderland people at the other side of the Ems,'wonen de Duutsers  

I could talk with the grandfather of Angles in my dialect too, the Emden one not the Burgum one  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friso-Saxon_dialects

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rheiderland

[Rodoorn]

Doe anyaone has information about Elb Germanic? The language of the Suebi. Or I didn't search well or there is nearly no literature....

bad news....

[Orentil]

Try e.g. here:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication...hdeutschen

Take away the second sound shift from Old High German and you are near to it ;-)

[Rodoorn]

Good old wiki:
"While there is debate possible about whether all tribes identified by Romans as Germanic spoke a Germanic language, the Suebi are generally agreed to have spoken one or more Germanic languages. Tacitus refers to Suebian languages, implying there was more than one by the end of the first century. In particular, the Suebi are associated with the concept of an "Elbe Germanic" group of early dialects spoken by the Irminones, entering Germany from the east, and originating on the Baltic. In late classical times, these dialects, by now situated to the south of the Elbe, and stretching across the Danube into the Roman empire, experienced the High German consonant shift that defines modern High German languages, and in its most extreme form, Upper German.[39]

Modern Swabian German, and Alemannic German more broadly, are therefore "assumed to have evolved at least in part" from Suebian.[40] However, Bavarian, the Thuringian dialect, the Lombardic language spoken by the Lombards of Italy, and standard "High German" itself, are also at least partly derived from the dialects spoken by the Suebi. (The only non-Suebian name among the major groups of Upper Germanic dialects is High Franconian German, but this is on the transitional frontier with Central German, as is neighboring Thuringian.)[39]"

Not much wiser......