The Origin of R1b-L21

[rmstevens2]

New Iron Age L21 samples here
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...3.584607v1

Thanks! Very interesting!

One Hallstatt sample from France, dated 750-540 BC, a La Tene sample from France dated 480-320 BC, one from the Roman cemetery at Valkenburg in South Holland, the Netherlands, dated 39 BC-114 AD, and one from a stone built grave under a mound at Nymarksgaard, Funen, Denmark, dated to around 660 AD.

There was also one from Orkney, but Iron Age British Isles samples are plentiful.

Still waiting for some Single Grave Corded Ware stuff, but these are nice.

[Dewsloth]

Finally piercing the cremation veil a bit with Valkenburg...

[rmstevens2]

New Iron Age L21 samples here
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...3.584607v1

Thanks! Very interesting!

One Hallstatt sample from France, dated 750-540 BC, a La Tene sample from France dated 480-320 BC, one from the Roman cemetery at Valkenburg in South Holland, the Netherlands, dated 39 BC-114 AD, and one from a stone built grave under a mound at Nymarksgaard, Funen, Denmark, dated to around 660 AD.

There was also one from Orkney, but Iron Age British Isles samples are plentiful.

Still waiting for some Single Grave Corded Ware stuff, but these are nice.

Naturally, all those will be attributed to the British Isles. 

No one stops to think that L21 is too old to have originated in the British Isles, and that the Bell Beaker people did not suddenly spring up in the British Isles.

[Tolan]

New Iron Age L21 samples here
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...3.584607v1

Thanks! Very interesting!

One Hallstatt sample from France, dated 750-540 BC, a La Tene sample from France dated 480-320 BC, one from the Roman cemetery at Valkenburg in South Holland, the Netherlands, dated 39 BC-114 AD, and one from a stone built grave under a mound at Nymarksgaard, Funen, Denmark, dated to around 660 AD.

There was also one from Orkney, but Iron Age British Isles samples are plentiful.

Still waiting for some Single Grave Corded Ware stuff, but these are nice.

These are the oldest L21s on the continent, aren't they?
And with a subclade of L21: Z251 (750 BCE , Bourgogne)
Soon it will be impossible to claim that L21 and DF13 were born in the British Isles!

[rmstevens2]

New Iron Age L21 samples here
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...3.584607v1

Thanks! Very interesting!

One Hallstatt sample from France, dated 750-540 BC, a La Tene sample from France dated 480-320 BC, one from the Roman cemetery at Valkenburg in South Holland, the Netherlands, dated 39 BC-114 AD, and one from a stone built grave under a mound at Nymarksgaard, Funen, Denmark, dated to around 660 AD.

There was also one from Orkney, but Iron Age British Isles samples are plentiful.

Still waiting for some Single Grave Corded Ware stuff, but these are nice.

These are the oldest L21s on the continent, aren't they?
And with a subclade of L21: Z251 (750 BCE , Bourgogne)
Soon it will be impossible to claim that L21 and DF13 were born in the British Isles!

I agree, but I think it's impossible already, given the ages of both L21 and DF13.

[alanarchae]

New Iron Age L21 samples here
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/...3.584607v1

Thanks! Very interesting!

One Hallstatt sample from France, dated 750-540 BC, a La Tene sample from France dated 480-320 BC, one from the Roman cemetery at Valkenburg in South Holland, the Netherlands, dated 39 BC-114 AD, and one from a stone built grave under a mound at Nymarksgaard, Funen, Denmark, dated to around 660 AD.

There was also one from Orkney, but Iron Age British Isles samples are plentiful.

Still waiting for some Single Grave Corded Ware stuff, but these are nice.

These are the oldest L21s on the continent, aren't they?
And with a subclade of L21: Z251 (750 BCE , Bourgogne)
Soon it will be impossible to claim that L21 and DF13 were born in the British Isles!

I think that is proven already by L21’s current FTDNA discover dating of 2600BC which is really about 200 years before we can certainly say bell beaker folk were in the isles. My own belief is that dating for L21 will eventually be pushed back a little more. But it seems fairly clear that L21 was located in the ancient  ydna nightmare zone of acid soils in the netherlands. So i’m not at all surprised by the problems finding it on the continent. Also prior to inhunation re-emerging in many places c. 800BC there had been 4 or 5 centuries ggof domination of cremation in many areas when the chances of finding it would be particularly low.

[Dewsloth]

!!!

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...7#pid13237

GBVPK Bell Beaker, Narbonne, South-France, 3890 C14 BP
from Seguin-Orlando's Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France formely known as the oldest DF27 relabelled R-L21.

S2 clustered ancient samples row 1613

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/...nload=true

[rmstevens2]

!!!

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...7#pid13237

GBVPK Bell Beaker, Narbonne, South-France, 3890 C14 BP
from Seguin-Orlando's Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France formely known as the oldest DF27 relabelled R-L21.

S2 clustered ancient samples row 1613

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/...nload=true

That is a pretty amazing development, if it turns out to be true. Looks like that c14 date actually comes out to be around 2330 BC, which is about as old as any L21 among British Beaker.

[rmstevens2]

!!!

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...7#pid13237

GBVPK Bell Beaker, Narbonne, South-France, 3890 C14 BP
from Seguin-Orlando's Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France formely known as the oldest DF27 relabelled R-L21.

S2 clustered ancient samples row 1613

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/...nload=true

That is a pretty amazing development, if it turns out to be true. Looks like that c14 date actually comes out to be around 2330 BC, which is about as old as any L21 among British Beaker.

I asked about it over at the Facebook Big Y group. Here's what FTDNA's Göran Runström said just now:

I haven't checked where that sample is placed on the FTDNA tree but those haplogroup assignments mentioned in supplementary materials, especially when referencing samples from other studies, are often not very thoroughly researched, sometimes just the result of an automatic haplogroup assignment tool.

We at FTDNA do our own detailed analysis of the raw data for the haplogroup assignments and typically do not rely on the assignments from the studies unless there are some special circumstances.

Now that I brought GBVPK to their attention, hopefully FTDNA Discover's team will take a look at him, and we'll know one way or the other.

[Webb]

!!!

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...7#pid13237

GBVPK Bell Beaker, Narbonne, South-France, 3890 C14 BP
from Seguin-Orlando's Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France formely known as the oldest DF27 relabelled R-L21.

S2 clustered ancient samples row 1613

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/...nload=true

That is a pretty amazing development, if it turns out to be true. Looks like that c14 date actually comes out to be around 2330 BC, which is about as old as any L21 among British Beaker.

I asked about it over at the Facebook Big Y group. Here's what FTDNA's Göran Runström said just now:

I haven't checked where that sample is placed on the FTDNA tree but those haplogroup assignments mentioned in supplementary materials, especially when referencing samples from other studies, are often not very thoroughly researched, sometimes just the result of an automatic haplogroup assignment tool.

We at FTDNA do our own detailed analysis of the raw data for the haplogroup assignments and typically do not rely on the assignments from the studies unless there are some special circumstances.

Now that I brought GBVPK to their attention, hopefully FTDNA Discover's team will take a look at him, and we'll know one way or the other.

Not to be a Debbie downer, but the spreadsheet that shows the call as L21 instead of DF27 is the same calls that the Reich lab released a couple of years ago, and if you recall on this same spreadsheet two of the Covesea Caves samples are listed as DF27 yet Alex and FTDNA had one as L21 and the other is ZZ37/ZZ38.  I remember because I got excited then Alex looked into it and said the Reich lab determinations weren’t correct.

[rmstevens2]

!!!

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...7#pid13237

GBVPK Bell Beaker, Narbonne, South-France, 3890 C14 BP
from Seguin-Orlando's Heterogeneous Hunter-Gatherer and Steppe-Related Ancestries in Late Neolithic and Bell Beaker Genomes from Present-Day France formely known as the oldest DF27 relabelled R-L21.

S2 clustered ancient samples row 1613

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/...nload=true

That is a pretty amazing development, if it turns out to be true. Looks like that c14 date actually comes out to be around 2330 BC, which is about as old as any L21 among British Beaker.

I asked about it over at the Facebook Big Y group. Here's what FTDNA's Göran Runström said just now:

I haven't checked where that sample is placed on the FTDNA tree but those haplogroup assignments mentioned in supplementary materials, especially when referencing samples from other studies, are often not very thoroughly researched, sometimes just the result of an automatic haplogroup assignment tool.

We at FTDNA do our own detailed analysis of the raw data for the haplogroup assignments and typically do not rely on the assignments from the studies unless there are some special circumstances.

Now that I brought GBVPK to their attention, hopefully FTDNA Discover's team will take a look at him, and we'll know one way or the other.

Not to be a Debbie downer, but the spreadsheet that shows the call as L21 instead of DF27 is the same calls that the Reich lab released a couple of years ago, and if you recall on this same spreadsheet two of the Covesea Caves samples are listed as DF27 yet Alex and FTDNA had one as L21 and the other is ZZ37/ZZ38.  I remember because I got excited then Alex looked into it and said the Reich lab determinations weren’t correct.

Yeah, that sort of thing is why I withheld my excitement and asked about it over at the Facebook Big Y group. I'll believe GBVPK is L21 when FTDNA confirms it. I'm hopeful, but I'm not counting my chickens until they're hatched. 

GBVPK isn't in FTDNA Discover, even as R-DF27, which might be an indication that the sample doesn't have great coverage.

[rmstevens2]

FTDNA Discover still has the TMRCA of L21 at 2650 BC. That's what it's been for one month as of today, at least since I checked on 28 January 2024. 

Not bad!

Still at 2650 BC! That's excellent, but I'm hoping it goes to 2750 or 2800 BC soon.

[jorgensenaleksander]

For R-A5846 (early L21 break off) things might get a bit more interesting now. Another norwegian is matching me at Y111. I’m at R-FTB54744 right now. His BigY700 is not done yet but if his snps cause the tree to form a new branch we might have a Scandinavian L21 branch that got to western Norway around 2000 BCE.

[rmstevens2]

I don't know if I have mentioned this before or not, but Low Hauxley 70, the oldest L21 (DF13 really) British Beaker man thus far known (2464 - 2209 calBC), was buried facing north. That's unusual, because the standard pose for Beaker men was facing east, with the head to the north. The standard male Corded Ware pose was facing south with the head to the west. Of course, there were exceptions, in which Beaker men were buried CW style and CW men were buried Beaker style, but facing north is still exceptional. 

The paper in which Low Hauxley 70 (as sample KD070) appeared is Dulias et al, "Ancient DNA at the edge of the world: Continental immigration and the persistence of Neolithic male lineages in Bronze Age Orkney" (2022). It doesn't say much about the placement of Low Hauxley 70 except that he was facing north. This is from page 4 of the paper's Supplementary Information:

We sampled a single individual from Burial 1 from Cairn 1. The individual was a young, possibly male (confirmed by the DNA analysis) adult, aged between 12 and 16, crouched and facing towards the north. He was radiocarbon dated to the early part of the Beaker period (3874 ± 32; SUERC-49872; approximately 2464–2209 cal. BC) and appeared to have been accorded particular significance as a primary or founding burial.

[ArmandoR1b]

GBVPK isn't in FTDNA Discover, even as R-DF27, which might be an indication that the sample doesn't have great coverage.

GBVPK has good coverage. It has at about 23805 Y-DNA SNPs reported, 28 results for R-M269 equivalents which is only slightly less than PNL001 and more than Aesch25.

GBVPK also has a derived read for L51, P310, L151, S1159, and Z195 and an ancestral read DF13.

DF27 is an SNP that has to be tested with nested primers in order to be tested correctly. The raw data reported a negative read but that isn't surprising since it wasn't tested with nested primers.

YFull has it as Z195 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z195/

YFull won't look at specimens if the coverage is too low.