E-V13 Numbers and a Couple of Conclusions from the FTDNA Data Base

[Southpaw]

This sample IMO should be E-V13 as well, there is probably an error there. His potential model reveals that generally he is Balkanite, now specifically what, i would say likely Thracian, Greek or Liburni.

Hvar_G12_A7 Albania_BA_IA Aegean_BA_IA
Hvar_G12_A7 Bulgaria_IA

[Aspar]

So apparently some of the E-V13 in England is from La Tène Celts and not just Illyrian soldiers from Roman times.

Indeed, some should come in with Celts.
In some other cases it might be a bit more complicated though, like having been in the Danubian-Alpine zone, moving from there to Central-Western Germany, and then moving from around Germany to England in the later Roman up to the Medieval period too. So not necessarily all of it directly from La Tene Celts to Britain.
Some instances are pretty clear on the matter, if e.g. the British branches being completely embedded and surrounded by German-French (and other Central European) modern samples.

I always imagined the bigger chunk of E-V13 in England coming from medieval France after the Norman conquest.

Years ago, when I first did my Big-Y test, I received a message from a guy with an ancestral surname Wright. He was a match of mine on 25 str's as were many others with the exact same surname. I didn't know back then but the man explained to me that he is a descendant of the famous Wright clan. The same clan the brothers Wright, the famous aviators, are descended from.

Anyway, he was baffled by his haplogroup because in his mind it contradicted the family story he knew And that was that the Wright clan stems from the Normans that conquered England in the 11th century. Therefore he started questioning the Norman ancestry and came up with a new idea that the clan stems from Balkan Roman soldiers of Dardanian ancestry.

We exchanged a few emails and that was it. Anyhow, back than, a lot of questions were still in the air regarding E-V13.
However from today's perspective, there is nothing strange about the introduction of some E-V13 subclades on the island by the Normans. 

So his confusion, steaming from the fact that he probably expected I1 or R-U106 is unfounded IMO and their family story is likely correct given the fact that noble English originated families often have very strong foundations for their ancestral origin stories.

[pelop]

I always imagined the bigger chunk of E-V13 in England coming from medieval France after the Norman conquest.

Of course, and the same is true for the vast majority of "southern" Y DNA founder lineages that appear in Britain and Ireland between 1000-1400 AD.

[pelop]

So his confusion, steaming from the fact that he probably expected I1 or R-U106 is unfounded IMO and their family story is likely correct given the fact that noble English originated families often have very strong foundations for their ancestral origin stories.

Yeah, I think the simpler explanation for, e.g. a certain famous J2a clan from Scotland, is not that they descended from "Semitic kings" nor that they were random "merchants" that miraculously thrived in a Medieval Christian context (as some popular youtubers would have you believe). They were simply medieval French migrants with an Imperial Roman paternal ancestor

[Southpaw]

During the early Iron Age the
Rhodope mountains and the adjacent plain to the north do not demonstrate any
archaeologically traceable contact with the Aegean, with the exception of the sparse finds
from Svilengrad. This does not mean that the Rhodope mountains were a physical barrier
that prevented the exchange of goods or concepts. They were instead a connective zone,
as the uniformity in burial rites, settlement forms, pottery, and other artefact types both
north and south of the mountains attests. The most noticeable differences in material
culture are between the western and eastern Rhodope mountains. For example, while
fluted wares decorated with knobs are found across the region in the early Iron Age, and
continued to be produced at later periods, a distinctive new type of pottery with elaborate
geometric motifs (Pšeničevo ware) was used in the eastern Rhodope mountains from the
tenth century BC onwards; this is closely related to ceramics of the Basarabi and
Babadag groups north of the Balkan mountains (see Chapter 14).

https://www.academia.edu/37114800/Gimatz...sity_Press

This Western Rhodope vs Eastern Rhodope is interesting remark.

[Riverman]

During the early Iron Age the
Rhodope mountains and the adjacent plain to the north do not demonstrate any
archaeologically traceable contact with the Aegean, with the exception of the sparse finds
from Svilengrad. This does not mean that the Rhodope mountains were a physical barrier
that prevented the exchange of goods or concepts. They were instead a connective zone,
as the uniformity in burial rites, settlement forms, pottery, and other artefact types both
north and south of the mountains attests. The most noticeable differences in material
culture are between the western and eastern Rhodope mountains. For example, while
fluted wares decorated with knobs are found across the region in the early Iron Age, and
continued to be produced at later periods, a distinctive new type of pottery with elaborate
geometric motifs (Pšeničevo ware) was used in the eastern Rhodope mountains from the
tenth century BC onwards; this is closely related to ceramics of the Basarabi and
Babadag groups north of the Balkan mountains (see Chapter 14).

https://www.academia.edu/37114800/Gimatz...sity_Press

This Western Rhodope vs Eastern Rhodope is interesting remark.

Yes, the Western Rhodopes were oftentimes more influenced by the Central-Southern Balkans, whereas the Eastern ones being more directly influenced by the Carpatho-Danubian to East Balkan and steppe sphere. Like Brnjica was more prominent in the Western Rhodopes, whereas Wietenberg-related incised ware, Noua-Coslogeni, then Knobbed/Fluted Ware/Gáva-related Channelled Ware was even more prominent in the East Rhodopes.
However, both regions being united under Channelled Ware, yet the Psenichevo coming from the more strictly North/Eastern inspired, but with Aegeo-Anatolian contacts, East Rhodopes.

The area of Psenichevo was completely and thoroughly covered by Channelled Ware, and this shows in Psenichevo itself, which shows many similarities with Lapus II-Gáva, Vartop and early Babadag. Especially the flutes/cannellure and large knobs are characteristic.

Look at these pieces, there was nothing comparable in Bulgaria before the immigration of people from the Carpatho-Balkan cremation block:


Elena Bozhinova, page 70.

From: https://www.academia.edu/7794465/Thrace_..._in_Thrace

General scheme for Bulgaria:



All of Thrace was covered by Fluted/Gáva-related Channelled Ware in the transitonal LBA-EIA phase.

The samples we got so far are however, from a later phase, when the Aegeo-Anatolian influence had spread again in Thrace:

The rich geometric decoration of the Psenicevo style is a phenomenon common to
all of southeast Thrace, where the centre coincides with the region of the dolmens ?
Sakar, Strandja and the Eastern Rhodopes. It also features in the central part of the
Maritza and Tundja valleys to the north and Eastern Thrace to the south.55 The
ornate decoration is less seen in the west, and its limit should be placed in the region
of Plovdiv (Philippopolis). In contrast to its gradual beginning, the second phase ends
abruptly. Burnished handmade table ware is replaced for quite a short time with a
grey wheel-made pottery that is foreign to Thrace and has its traditions in the northwestern Anatolian region.56 A short period when the two classes of pottery are found
together is regarded as the third and last stage of the second Early Iron Age phase, but
it could also be considered a transition into the Late Iron Age. In the upper layer of
the Cala settlement site, the amount of burnished handmade pottery decreases and it
is found together with a limited quantity of grey ware with a probable date of the
sixth century BC. In this period the first production centres of grey ware appeared;
they are expected in colonies established next to the Aegean and Black seas at the end
of the seventh to sixth centuries BC. Grey ware appeared later in the inland regions,
as in the case of the Western Rhodopes region, which is distinguished from the other
parts of Thrace in many aspects.

In my opinion that might be accompanied by backflow from Anatolia, gene flow into Thrace, with a Southern shift.

The earliest stamped pottery motifs in Bulgaria appear in a clearly Gáva-related Channelled Ware context:

The earliest examples of stamped ornaments
are simple bands of concentric circles with
tangents, concentric circles with incised tan-
gents, large S-stamps, little bosses with lines
of *****s, circles without any tangents, b?nder
of circles, and pseudocord cover the jar fre-
quently combined with vertical bosses, al- mond-shaped bosses, mostly on pots of
Sch?ssel 2 type, circles combined with angles, flutes and channels on the body of the vessel, pseudocord in curvolinear lines, mainly the
large spirals, varios triangles and angles
forming ornaments, horizontal rhombi, in-
cised lines accompanied by *****s.
Big stamps on pithos ware and the flat kan-
tharoi are probably as early as these. It is still quite difficult to date the big horned bosses is still quite difficult. Those bowls are frequent in Catalka, but also in Psenicevo and Asenovec. The site of Djadovo shows an ex- ample with facets. One is inclined to date them to the classical phase.
The increasing variation of stamps, especially
of S-stamps, characterizes the classical phase
of stamped pottery. So do the large scale of
compositions of rolled designs an circles
formed by s-stamps (P?eni ̃evo), hanging
triangles and circular compositions
(Ov ̃arovo), pyramids of triangles, swan-
shaped stamps, and bands of so called 'Brot-
laibstempel' (loaf-shaped stamps). The Black
Sea coast and the Sakar-Planina are included
in the distribution during this phase (Karte
140, Abb. 71).

https://refubium.fu-berlin.de/bitstream/...sAllowed=y

Channelled pottery is followed by the gradual adoption of
a stamped geometric decoration style. In the regions of
southern Thrace, the appearance of the two styles could
have occurred simultaneously, with channelled pottery
prevailing in the early stages. Fluting is still an important part of the decoration system and maintains its predominance with the turban dishes, kantharoi and amphora-like vessels, but is now often combined with incised and stamped decoration.

https://www.academia.edu/41178766/The_Be...Chronology

Knobbed Ware distribution:



From: https://d-nb.info/976420309/34

There can be no doubt that this was the main spreader of both E-V13 and Proto-Thracians.

The continuity from Fluted/Knobbed Ware to Psenichevo is obvious and the samples we got are from a Post-Psenichevo context, in which I would assume a bit of Aegeo-Anatolian autosomal shift, but the local Psenichevo lineages being preserved paternally. Therefore we can assume Knobbed Ware people -> Fluted Ware horizon -> Psenichevo -> Early Thracians = E-V13.

So far we know for sure that the East Rhodope group/Psenichevo was dominated by E-V13, we don't have much from other groups...