E-V13 Numbers and a Couple of Conclusions from the FTDNA Data Base

[Riverman]

I looked up some numbers and what we might deduce from it from the FTDNA data base, concentrating on BigY-tested participants, but also including additional numbers for the country statistics form the SNP and Family Finder testers.

I will start with some statistics about BigY partiicants in some of the main E-V13 branches:

E-Z5018: 41,08% (Upstream E-FTT49 41,62%)

Under E-Z5018:

E-S2979: 30%

Under E-S2979, 3 main branches:

E-FGC11457: 12,10% (mostly under E-FGC11451 11,53% of it)
E-L241: 8,35%
E-Y3183: 6,89%

E-Z5017: 22,9%

Under E-Z5017, main branch:

E-Z5016: 18,03%

Under E-Z5016, main branch:
E-CTS9320: 15,88%

This makes 4 single ancestors (of CTS9320, E-FGC11451, L241, Y3183 respectively), all under E-Z5018/Z5017, with a last common ancestor for each branch between 1.300-1.000 BC, which account all in all for about 43% of all modern E-V13 males.
E-Z5018 and E-Z5017 together make up 64 % of all modern E-V13 males. So almost 2/3 of all modern V13 males stem from common ancestors born around 2.100-2.000 BC.

Even more drastic is the dominance of their ancestor, E-BY3880, from about 2.200 BC, which accounts for 91,74% of all E-V13 males.

On the other hand, this means that all non-E-BY3880 E-V13 members make up just 8,26%, of which the Slavo-Germanic founder lineage of E-L540/E-S3003, with a late recent common ancestor in Antiquity makes up 2,35 %, which leaves a mere 5,92 % of other separate branches from E-BY3880.

Let's look at the differences of the above mentioned 4 LBA-EIA branches by country statistics and what we can read out of it.

Start with the biggest of the 4, and the only one which comes from E-Z5017:

E-CTS9320: What sticks out at first is that England is very low for which branch, especially if comparing with the 3 Z5018 branches.

England makes up a mere 4 % of the total. Germany is clearly dominant, but followed by Bulgaria, Italy, Albania, Poland, Greece.

E-FGC11457:  Number one is England, followed by Germany, Finland, Switzerland, Italy, Russia.

E-L241: Again starting with England, Germany, Poland, Russia, Albania, Czech, France.

E-Y3183: Germany, Italy, Montenegro, Ireland, Bulgaria, England, again at a mere 5 % of the total.

I think its pretty evident that we deal with a North to South distribution from: E-FGC11457 -> E-L241 -> E-Y3183 -> E-CTS9320

Compare with this map I made recently:




What's also typical, is that these 4 branches dominate the samples from Avar Hungary as far as they could be assigned to a downstream clade, proving their existence around the Tisza-Danube regions. Further evidence for a more Northern position especially of FGC11457 and L241 and their access to the steppe is that they are the most common branches of E-V13 in China.

Now back to the numbers we can see for England: It is pretty interesting that the more Southern distributed branches of the 4, E-CTS9320 and E-Y3183 are far less common in England, than the Northern ones: 4-5% (E-CTS9320, E-Y3183) vs. 10-14 % (E-FGC11457, E-L241).

For E-CTS9320 its not just the total frequency, but also the branch membership. Like in E-L241 and E-FGC11457 a far higher number of branches has English members, they are much better represented.

All the more interesting is, that Germany was reached by E-CTS9320 in appreciable numbers, but England was not.

In my opinion this speaks for seperate Northern routes for the Northern branches, either with Celts, Dacians (Roman era) and Germanics for E-FGC11457, E-L241, which reached England on its own.

That's to say about those branches which I all place into the North Thracian - Dacian sphere, but still on different positions from North to South, and different access to the steppe and Middle Danube-Alpine zone, since remarkably, E-FGC11457, E-L241 are both more common in England and China, at both of the edges of the modern distribution. My personal guess would be a presence in the Sanislau group (cremating, Upper Tisza centre) of the Vekerzug culture, which was particularly important for both the West (into Hallstatt-La Tene) and East (steppe, Asia) movements of these branches.

That the Slavic dispersal played, obviously, no role in England can also be proven by E-S3003 (L540) which has so far no single member from Britain. If a Slavic-East Germanic into Germanic expansion would have played any role, for England (why should it one might ask, but still good to test), when E-S3003 should prove it. Yet its practically absent. On the other hand, Scandinavia, Sweden and Norway, got affected. Even Iberians got one, on YFull, but British not:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/E-L540/

I think with the data coming in, both ancient and modern, the ancient distribution of E-V13 branches gets more shape and conclusions can be made, even if still somewhat speculative.

The big timing of 2.200-2.000 for the first major expansion, at the root of the E-BY3880 and its main branches growth, is a very notable date. Two very important cultures from the Carpatho-Balkan sphere date to this period: Otomani culture and Wietenberg culture.
Otomani-Füzesabony was R-Z283 dominated, by newcomers, but the Eastern group, the cremating Gyulavarsand group between Füzesabony and Wietenberg, that one was rather a descendant from Nyírség.

I think that between Füzesabony-Otomani and Wietenberg, in the zone from which Suciu de Sus emerged, the bulk of E-BY3880 was centered in the time from about 2.300-1.600 BC. Later expanding with different groups, but especially Gáva-related Channelled Ware (Gáva-Holigrady, Belegis II-Gáva, Vartop, Knobbed Ware etc.).
The big advantage of this hypothesis is that it can account for all the major demographic expansions we can deduce from the modern E-V13 data:
- 2.200-2.000 BC: Formation of Eastern Otomani-Gyulvarsand and Wietenberg in the Transtisza-Transylvanian region
- 1.700-1.300 BC: Formation of the Suciu de Sus culture and related groups, which formed the base for the Gáva culture and the Channelled/Knobbed Ware expansion
- 1.300-1.000 BC: Gáva-related Channelled Ware expansion into Moldova and the Central and Eastern Balkans in particular.

At every 3 of these big turning and formation points, we can observe big jumps, growth rates for E-V13, especially during the formation of Suciu de Sus in the Upper Tisza zone and and during the Channelled Ware expansion.

There is no alternative group I know of which correlates that well with this pattern we can deduce from modern E-V13 testers.

[Riverman]

User Aahmes on Eupedia made this interesting observation from the new Family Finder results:

The E-M35 project on FamilyTreeDNA shows 3 new samples that are positive for L618 and negative for it's only descendent CTS1975. They are from Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Iraq and I believe they are all due to family finder's new SNP testing. Their markers don't indicate any very recent clustering but without deeper testing we won't know exactly.

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/ne...v13.45142/


CTS1975 should be tested with FF assignment, so that's very interesting indeed. Kind of makes the spread with Anatolian farmers - which was the most likely option anyway, all the more likely.

Probably one could tell that FTDNA, they sometimes test such interesting samples, get in touch with them. Of course, its not as exciting for most people as a split for E-M35 or the like, but still.

[Vinitharya]

So apparently some of the E-V13 in England is from La Tène Celts and not just Illyrian soldiers from Roman times.

[Riverman]

So apparently some of the E-V13 in England is from La Tène Celts and not just Illyrian soldiers from Roman times.

Indeed, some should come in with Celts.
In some other cases it might be a bit more complicated though, like having been in the Danubian-Alpine zone, moving from there to Central-Western Germany, and then moving from around Germany to England in the later Roman up to the Medieval period too. So not necessarily all of it directly from La Tene Celts to Britain.
Some instances are pretty clear on the matter, if e.g. the British branches being completely embedded and surrounded by German-French (and other Central European) modern samples.

[Qrts]

So apparently some of the E-V13 in England is from La Tène Celts and not just Illyrian soldiers from Roman times.

Indeed, some should come in with Celts.
In some other cases it might be a bit more complicated though, like having been in the Danubian-Alpine zone, moving from there to Central-Western Germany, and then moving from around Germany to England in the later Roman up to the Medieval period too. So not necessarily all of it directly from La Tene Celts to Britain.
Some instances are pretty clear on the matter, if e.g. the British branches being completely embedded and surrounded by German-French (and other Central European) modern samples.

I always imagined the bigger chunk of E-V13 in England coming from medieval France after the Norman conquest.

[Riverman]

So apparently some of the E-V13 in England is from La Tène Celts and not just Illyrian soldiers from Roman times.

Indeed, some should come in with Celts.
In some other cases it might be a bit more complicated though, like having been in the Danubian-Alpine zone, moving from there to Central-Western Germany, and then moving from around Germany to England in the later Roman up to the Medieval period too. So not necessarily all of it directly from La Tene Celts to Britain.
Some instances are pretty clear on the matter, if e.g. the British branches being completely embedded and surrounded by German-French (and other Central European) modern samples.

I always imagined the bigger chunk of E-V13 in England coming from medieval France after the Norman conquest.

We can already that some of it came with Anglo-Saxons, Jutes and especially Franks. Like we have the evidence from Southern English ancient DNA, where a Frankish profile individual was E-V13. The Franks seem to have redistributed a lot of the E-V13 from the Middle and Upper Rhenish regions to Northern Germany, France and England. The Middle Rhenish region in a wider sense is to this day a hotspot for E-V13 diversity and frequency within Western Germany, in some areas at 10 % and higher, especially Eifel, Hunsrück and Baden-Alsace.
The question is how much of the regional E-V13 came from Celts already, how much from the Roman era, and how much from later periods.
To answer that with certainty, we need ancient DNA from the region, especially along the Rhine - pre-Roman, Roman early, Roman late and post-Roman.

But the most crucial point is, regardless of how it came there, a lot moved on to France, BENELUX, Northern Germany and the British Isles, especially with the Franks and later Frankish Germans.

We can be sure earlier Celtic movements spread it as well, all these movements did, including Roman era resettlements of Dacians (like Birdoswald!), its about whcih branches and the proportions of each movement.

[corrigendum]

There is no alternative group I know of which correlates that well with this pattern we can deduce from modern E-V13 testers.

For modern E-V13 testers, there's no evidence that their ancestors came from the Carpathian region. It's clear that there is no "Daco-Celtic" grouping in Hungary, Slovenia, Austria. There are literally hundreds of samples which exclude any such theory.

The exact Balkan regions where they came from is a subject of debate.

[targaryen]

New samples in the island of Hvar in Croatia during Late Antiquity. 1 J2b2 and a bunch of EV13s and J2as.

E-V13s are all over Roman Croatia.

[corrigendum]

So apparently some of the E-V13 in England is from La Tène Celts and not just Illyrian soldiers from Roman times.

There is no evidence for pre-Roman E-V13 in England because there are no E-V13 samples from England or Britain during the Iron Age.

I don't exclude it in terms of theoretical speculation, but it's clear that most of the E-V13 in England post-date the Iron Age. Most such lineages probably don't even originate from Roman era settlers, but from medieval movements.

[corrigendum]

New samples in the island of Hvar in Croatia during Late Antiquity. 1 J2b2 and a bunch of EV13s and J2as.

E-V13s are all over Roman Croatia.

It's about 20%. The new study confirmed the general trend and re-confirmed that Slavic migrations led to the rapid decrease of Roman Balkan ancestry in Dalmatia.

[Riverman]

New samples in the island of Hvar in Croatia during Late Antiquity. 1 J2b2 and a bunch of EV13s and J2as.

E-V13s are all over Roman Croatia.

The area was settled by Greeks and Imperial Roman migrants. The sample shows no regional continuity to the earlier Illyrian inhabitants and I highly doubt that mainland Dalmatia will look the same. Also, it seems there is one West African E lineage and two most likely E-V13 ones. The dominant haplogroup, which fits a Hellenistic to Imperial Roman scenario, in this Hvar sample is J2a.

Concering Daco-Celtic, this being mainly an issue for the Carpathian basin from Vekerzug onward, but especially in late La Tene with Celtic backflow from the Carpatho-Balkans. We have very little sampling yet and the cremating part of the population being not covered yet. Despite that fact, we already got a couple of E-V13 carrying people from Vekerzug and La Tene. With the transition to inhumation, the true E-V13 frequency will become visible, not earlier in many of these Eastern and Central regions.

[elflock]

New samples in the island of Hvar in Croatia during Late Antiquity. 1 J2b2 and a bunch of EV13s and J2as.

E-V13s are all over Roman Croatia.

It's a late antiquity cosmopilitan site. This is the 4th Balkan paper which basically shows the same pattern. Middleastern J2a-M410+, J1a+, G2a-M406+, Northafrican E1b etc. aswell as "European" E1b clade V13 in the Western Balkans increase during the Imperial Roman era. And so is mostly their mediation in other parts of the former Roman empire.

"Hellenistic/Aegean" is the new Middleastern on anthrofora. There obviously was an Imperial Roman era mediated migration crisis of Middleeasterners and Northafricans all across Europe.

[Southpaw]

The supposed Greek ruler Demetrius of Pharos was from this Island: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_of_Pharos

He was initially sort of vassal of Illyrian Ardiaean King Agron, then was involved in both Illyrian wars with Rome as a leading commander on Illyrian side.

[targaryen]

New samples in the island of Hvar in Croatia during Late Antiquity. 1 J2b2 and a bunch of EV13s and J2as.

E-V13s are all over Roman Croatia.

The area was settled by Greeks and Imperial Roman migrants. The sample shows no regional continuity to the earlier Illyrian inhabitants and I highly doubt that mainland Dalmatia will look the same. Also, it seems there is one West African E lineage and two most likely E-V13 ones. The dominant haplogroup, which fits a Hellenistic to Imperial Roman scenario, in this Hvar sample is J2a.

Concering Daco-Celtic, this being mainly an issue for the Carpathian basin from Vekerzug onward, but especially in late La Tene with Celtic backflow from the Carpatho-Balkans. We have very little sampling yet and the cremating part of the population being not covered yet. Despite that fact, we already got a couple of E-V13 carrying people from Vekerzug and La Tene. With the transition to inhumation, the true E-V13 frequency will become visible, not earlier in many of these Eastern and Central regions.

LOL

"the majority could be modelled with the Croatian Iron Age (Croatia_IA), Albanian Bronze and Iron Age (Albania_BA_IA), Bulgarian Iron Age (Bulgaria_IA), or  as a  combination of  these  ancestries"

[elflock]

New samples in the island of Hvar in Croatia during Late Antiquity. 1 J2b2 and a bunch of EV13s and J2as.

E-V13s are all over Roman Croatia.

The area was settled by Greeks and Imperial Roman migrants. The sample shows no regional continuity to the earlier Illyrian inhabitants and I highly doubt that mainland Dalmatia will look the same. Also, it seems there is one West African E lineage and two most likely E-V13 ones. The dominant haplogroup, which fits a Hellenistic to Imperial Roman scenario, in this Hvar sample is J2a.

Concering Daco-Celtic, this being mainly an issue for the Carpathian basin from Vekerzug onward, but especially in late La Tene with Celtic backflow from the Carpatho-Balkans. We have very little sampling yet and the cremating part of the population being not covered yet. Despite that fact, we already got a couple of E-V13 carrying people from Vekerzug and La Tene. With the transition to inhumation, the true E-V13 frequency will become visible, not earlier in many of these Eastern and Central regions.

LOL

"the majority could be modelled with the Croatian Iron Age (Croatia_IA), Albanian Bronze and Iron Age (Albania_BA_IA), Bulgarian Iron Age (Bulgaria_IA), or  as a  combination of  these  ancestries"

Check out the J2a-M410 and J1-M267 clades which make up the majority of male samples. They're Middleastern. Models seem to be fails as was pointed out. Let's wait for the data to actually get published. Other than that such uniparentals always pop up in the Balkans post Imperial Roman Era and initially with MENA auDNA admixture. Doesn't matter if it's well enough "washed out" at some point in time. Doesn't make the origin of the uniparentals local lol