R1a-M417 in Yamnaya?

[rmstevens2]

Okay, R1a guys, what's your opinion on this? Will R1a-M417 eventually show up in Yamnaya?

In the interest of transparency, I have to say IMHO it will. But I have a kind of broad definition of Yamnaya as a cultural horizon with a lot of local variants. Its autosomal profile was created and maintained via female exogamy, i.e., the various tribes exchanged women as brides. That stirred the genomic pot, prevented inbreeding, and also served to preserve the handful of different local Y-DNA haplogroups that are found within Yamnaya.

Back in September of 2019, I got a tip from someone I regard as a reliable source who told me R1a-M417 and R1b-L51 had been found in a number of Yamnaya samples. R1b-L51 recently showed up in five Yamnayans in the April 2024 Lazaridis et al preprint, "The Genetic Origin of the Indo-Europeans". 

The R1a-M417 part of that 2019 tip has not materialized yet, but I think it will.

What do you think?

[rmstevens2]

Hmmm . . .

No replies in this thread so far, which surprises me. Does everyone agree with me? That's kind of nice!

[Kale]

Yamnaya and early/high-steppe CWC can both be modeled as mixes of Eneolithic Progress and Dereivka. CWC has more Dereivka than Yamnaya/Afansievo do, so I'll hazard a guess that might be the source of their R1a and that 'Core' Yamnaya/Afansievo will continue to lack R1a.

[rmstevens2]

Yamnaya and early/high-steppe CWC can both be modeled as mixes of Eneolithic Progress and Dereivka. CWC has more Dereivka than Yamnaya/Afansievo do, so I'll hazard a guess that might be the source of their R1a and that 'Core' Yamnaya/Afansievo will continue to lack R1a.

What do you make of the Ringbauer paper and the IBD matches between R1a-heavy Corded Ware, Yamnaya, and Afanasievo?

[Kale]

I suppose CWC came from a more Ukraine-Eneolithic rich subset of Yamnaya? A similar analogue would be Don Yamnaya, they pick up only a little extra stuff from Ukraine yet the y lines shift dramatically.

[rmstevens2]

I suppose CWC came from a more Ukraine-Eneolithic rich subset of Yamnaya? A similar analogue would be Don Yamnaya, they pick up only a little extra stuff from Ukraine yet  the y lines shift dramatically.

That's my thought, as well. Interesting to see you write that, because I know you're pretty adroit with autosomal analysis. I watch for your posts for that reason.

[targaryen]

I suppose CWC came from a more Ukraine-Eneolithic rich subset of Yamnaya? A similar analogue would be Don Yamnaya, they pick up only a little extra stuff from Ukraine yet  the y lines shift dramatically.

They do share IBD with the local Polish GAC though.

[rmstevens2]

I suppose CWC came from a more Ukraine-Eneolithic rich subset of Yamnaya? A similar analogue would be Don Yamnaya, they pick up only a little extra stuff from Ukraine yet  the y lines shift dramatically.

They do share IBD with the local Polish GAC though.

True, but that's via females. Corded Ware maintained about 75-80% steppe DNA. GAC wasn't the culture that prevailed, and so far GAC Y-DNA has all been I2a.

[targaryen]

My point is that I don't think all the EEF in CW is from Ukraine/steppes. Some of it is local Polish GACs.

[rmstevens2]

My point is that I don't think all the EEF in CW is from Ukraine/steppes. Some of it is local Polish GACs.

GAC moved down into Podolia in Ukraine. Anthony calls that the "Contact Zone" in his book, The Horse the Wheel and Language.

[targaryen]

My point is that I don't think all the EEF in CW is from Ukraine/steppes. Some of it is local Polish GACs.

GAC moved down into Podolia in Ukraine. Anthony calls that the "Contact Zone" in his book, The Horse the Wheel and Language.

Yep. The chart has both "Ukranian GAC" and "Polish GAC", and IBD is shared with both.

[rmstevens2]

I'm surprised there are no R1a guys arguing against a Yamnaya origin. For awhile a couple of years ago, it seemed that everyone thought Corded Ware had a separate, non-Yamnaya, but related origin. It seems that Ringbauer really changed that.

[rmstevens2]

I realize I am a little goofy in this regard, and that the MRCA shared by R1a and R1b was R1-M173 from about 22 kya, but I have always felt a certain kinship between R1a and R1b, because both are R1. Yeah, I know. Like I said, goofy. 

Just a mutual Siberian mammoth hunter thing I guess. Ah, the old days, sharing a few beers while mammoth steaks sizzled on the grill.

[Kale]

My point is that I don't think all the EEF in CW is from Ukraine/steppes. Some of it is local Polish GACs.

Of course. Some GAC were incorporated into CWC early in their expansion West, but it seems like the expansion was fast enough that the GAC hadn't had time to percolate into every member of the population, see some of the early Bohemian CWC with super high steppe levels like VLI076 or PNL001. Those are the kind of individuals I'm talking about.

Just a mutual Siberian mammoth hunter thing I guess. Ah, the old days, sharing a few beers while mammoth steaks sizzled on the grill.

Beer is for those cowardly little farmers playing in the grass. Mammoth hunters like mead! (I think?)

[rmstevens2]

My point is that I don't think all the EEF in CW is from Ukraine/steppes. Some of it is local Polish GACs.

Of course. Some GAC were incorporated into CWC early in their expansion West, but it seems like the expansion was fast enough that the GAC hadn't had time to percolate into every member of the population, see some of the early Bohemian CWC with super high steppe levels like VLI076 or PNL001. Those are the kind of individuals I'm talking about.

Just a mutual Siberian mammoth hunter thing I guess. Ah, the old days, sharing a few beers while mammoth steaks sizzled on the grill.

Beer is for those cowardly little farmers playing in the grass. Mammoth hunters like mead! (I think?)

I'm sure you're right. Mead is a lot simpler to make, for one thing.