U152 News/Updates

[brunolord15]

It could be near one of the ancient L2 samples I pmed you.  But tomorrow an older one could appear somewhere else.

Based on ancient samples, somewhere between the Rhine, Danube,
and Czech Rep.

Eastern Bell Beaker sites overlaps a lot of ancient L2, but EBB is probably too young. 


If P312 to L2 followed close to the 83 years per SNP average then chronologically, L2 may have been in eastern France, Switzerland, or southern Germany, but it could have also been in the Lower Rhine area i.e. BENELUX, or northern Germany

P312 did born in ukraine?

So far no P312 found before 2500s BC.  Chart above is based on observations made by U106 subject matter expert and astrophysicist Iain McDonald, said the following as it relates to L151 (parent of P312) and U106 (brother clade to P312).  P312 SNP block has 2 SNPs so you need to include both P312 and CTS12684 to have the Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) for all present descendants of P312.

R-L151
Likely MRCA date range: 3300-3000 BC.
Likely origin: Ukraine or other western former Soviet states if close to 3300 BC, or former Eastern Bloc countries (Poland/Czech R./Slovakia/Hungary/Romania/Bulgaria) if closer to 3000 BC.
Culture: earliest Corded Ware Culture (CWC)
Narrative evidence: The ancient DNA result PNL1 in Bohemia (before 2879 BC) sets the latest time that R-L151 can form, and likely sets the westernmost possible point of origin (since the CWC was an east-west migration and had only just reached Bohemia by 2900 BC). R-L151 represents the nexus of the R1b CWC expansion that took over Europe. The speed of this expansion can be traced via the number of sub-clades per haplogroup in the haplotree: initially (at R-L151) this was moderately fast, before becoming extremely fast. Hence, R-L151 is most likely to have formed and started splitting right at the start of the CWC expansion, give or take a few generations. The exact origins of this expansion are nebulous, but likely to be somewhere around the Ukraine. Different authors prefer routes north or south of the Carpathian Mountains. Based on current evidence, I would suggest a more northerly route.

R-U106
Likely MRCA data range: 3200-2900 BC.
Likely origin: Former Eastern Bloc countries: Czech R., Slovakia, Hungary, Poland (perhaps also Austria) if closer to 2950 BC; Romania, Moldova, western Ukraine if closer to 3200 BC.
Culture: early Corded Ware Culture (CWC)
Narrative evidence: As R-L151. R-U106 starts to get more rapidly into the population expansion. R-P312, R-S1194 and other basal R-L151 clades probably have a similar origin, though with less-constraining ancient DNA the date range can be slightly closer to the present and regions slightly further west allowed as the CWC migrated in that direction.

https://groups.io/g/R1b-U106/message/5759

Since P312 descends from L151 it may have originated in Ukraine or from a similar area as U106 above.  I'm inclined to think if U106 started in Ukraine, P312 started in Poland, but that's just my opinion and based on no evidence.

Mitchell is there any ethnicity breakdown of these R-L2 oldest samples? to know who were them?

[Mitchell-Atkins]

It could be near one of the ancient L2 samples I pmed you.  But tomorrow an older one could appear somewhere else.

Based on ancient samples, somewhere between the Rhine, Danube,
and Czech Rep.

Eastern Bell Beaker sites overlaps a lot of ancient L2, but EBB is probably too young. 


If P312 to L2 followed close to the 83 years per SNP average then chronologically, L2 may have been in eastern France, Switzerland, or southern Germany, but it could have also been in the Lower Rhine area i.e. BENELUX, or northern Germany

P312 did born in ukraine?

So far no P312 found before 2500s BC.  Chart above is based on observations made by U106 subject matter expert and astrophysicist Iain McDonald, said the following as it relates to L151 (parent of P312) and U106 (brother clade to P312).  P312 SNP block has 2 SNPs so you need to include both P312 and CTS12684 to have the Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) for all present descendants of P312.

R-L151
Likely MRCA date range: 3300-3000 BC.
Likely origin: Ukraine or other western former Soviet states if close to 3300 BC, or former Eastern Bloc countries (Poland/Czech R./Slovakia/Hungary/Romania/Bulgaria) if closer to 3000 BC.
Culture: earliest Corded Ware Culture (CWC)
Narrative evidence: The ancient DNA result PNL1 in Bohemia (before 2879 BC) sets the latest time that R-L151 can form, and likely sets the westernmost possible point of origin (since the CWC was an east-west migration and had only just reached Bohemia by 2900 BC). R-L151 represents the nexus of the R1b CWC expansion that took over Europe. The speed of this expansion can be traced via the number of sub-clades per haplogroup in the haplotree: initially (at R-L151) this was moderately fast, before becoming extremely fast. Hence, R-L151 is most likely to have formed and started splitting right at the start of the CWC expansion, give or take a few generations. The exact origins of this expansion are nebulous, but likely to be somewhere around the Ukraine. Different authors prefer routes north or south of the Carpathian Mountains. Based on current evidence, I would suggest a more northerly route.

R-U106
Likely MRCA data range: 3200-2900 BC.
Likely origin: Former Eastern Bloc countries: Czech R., Slovakia, Hungary, Poland (perhaps also Austria) if closer to 2950 BC; Romania, Moldova, western Ukraine if closer to 3200 BC.
Culture: early Corded Ware Culture (CWC)
Narrative evidence: As R-L151. R-U106 starts to get more rapidly into the population expansion. R-P312, R-S1194 and other basal R-L151 clades probably have a similar origin, though with less-constraining ancient DNA the date range can be slightly closer to the present and regions slightly further west allowed as the CWC migrated in that direction.

https://groups.io/g/R1b-U106/message/5759

Since P312 descends from L151 it may have originated in Ukraine or from a similar area as U106 above.  I'm inclined to think if U106 started in Ukraine, P312 started in Poland, but that's just my opinion and based on no evidence.

Mitchell is there any ethnicity breakdown of these R-L2 oldest samples? to know who were them?

My understanding is that Eastern Bell Beaker was similar to Corded Ware Culture-CWC which was  a mixture of something like neolithic Globular Amphora culture (EEF and WHG ancestry) and Steppe ancestry.   See chart below (Bell Beaker in red)

If you are asking what present day ethnicities are most like them, I can't help you there as all present day European pops are mixtures of varying percentages of early european farmers (EEF), western hunter gatherers (WHG), and pontic-caspian steppe ancestry.

Looking at modern day population charts with these 3 groups (EEF, WHG, Steppe) and comparing it to the Bell Beaker percentages, to me, Bell Beakers appears most similar to Estonians, Czechs, Hungarians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians, but that just a similarity in percentages.



Some one else may be better equipped to answer this question.

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Happy U152 Day!

Today is the 20th Anniversary of the earliest mention of the SNP that would later become known as U152.

U152/S28 came to the knowledge of the scientific community through the publication of the paper Whole-Genome Patterns of Common DNA Variations in Three Human Populations by David A. Hinds et al. in Science on 18 Feb 2005.  The single positive subject in the Hinds paper was NA07349, or CEPH1345-01, a Utah Mormon from the Centre d'Etude du Polymorphism Humain (CEPH) collection, available at the Coriell Institute.  Dr. Pui-Yan Kwok at the University of California, San Francisco (UCSF) had discovered this SNP prior to its submission to Single Nucleotide Polymorphism database (dbSNP) on 18 May 2004.

[CelticGerman]

I received the message from FTDNA concerning my U152 in January 2010, followed by Marker Z36 in November 2011 (FTDNA) and marker CTS188 and CTS4333 in February 2013 (Genographic Project). Still waiting for a more recent marker .....

[Mitchell-Atkins]

FTDNA U152 project now has over 4000 members. It's currently 4020, so I'm guessing the official cross over date was 31 May, as I looked at it a couple of days ago and it was still 3987 or something like that.

Today there are 24,991 U152 samples in the FTDNA database.