Ancient I1 samples list and discussion

[Rodoorn]

Pribislav on...

NEO590, Magleø:

1425-1269 BC; Denmark_BA; I1a2a1-Z58>Z59>CTS8647>Z61>Z60>Z140>Z141>A196 (xFGC19081,A1395,Y6900,FT162874)

Z61 level: Z61/S439+  G>T (1T)

Z140 level: Z140/S440+  G>A (1A)

A196 level: A196/Y5497+ T>C (2C)


on NEO220, Falköping 5:

2140-1932 BC; Sweden_BA; I1a-DF29>Z2893>Y18697 (xY10633,Y7282,A17212,S9297)


and on NEO563, Bybjerg:

1500-1310 BC; Denmark_BA; I1a2-Z58>Z59


So if I observe correctly, we are still missing: NEO875 (Toftum Mose), NEO223, NEO227 and NEO228 (Falköping 5), NEO261 (Sillvik), NEO93 (Strøby Ladeplads), NEO857 (Lollikehuse) and NEO815 (Vasagard).

These guys come not that fare from nowadays North Dutch. Semi for fun my sample:




Bell Beaker is no wonder imo BB = Single Grave Culture admixed with TRB. In Denmark this was in the beginning a separation: SGC in the West, TRB in the East. In the North Dutch area there was no seperation, SGC came into TRB territory. And there was constants exchange between SGC and BB groups, in whole North Central Europe (incl Denmark). 

Don't know if beneath the Flint Dagger culture there was the same kind of mixture.....weren't the BB's not beneath the Flint Dagger hood?
https://www.academia.edu/34798326/submit...Copenhagen

I1 could very well be related to Ertebölle people, see the Ostorf find,  slightly admixed with EEF, they took early the neolithic package and spread all over de the North German Plain place about 3400 BC.

See:
https://adnaera.com/2018/09/09/a-first-a...roup-adna/

Didn't some I1 subbranches made furore in NBA?

Just a few hunches.....

Hello Rodoorn,

I’m glad to see you made it over here. Just in case you missed it, we also have some of ph2ter’s maps for those samples:

https://genarchivist.com/showthread.php?...d=91#pid91

Thanks!! Indeed  I recognize my own region

[Kaltmeister]

RISE175 from Abekas 1 in Scania was one of the first samples discussed in this thread on Anthrogenica. If I remember right it had a low coverage and was assigned to the M253 level or proto-I1. Now FTDNA has him at I-Y18697. I do not know the reason for the new assignment and it is possible that I just missed something - however, he turns up in the dataset of Zeng et al.: "Postglacial genomes from foragers across Northern Eurasia reveal prehistoric mobility associated with the spread of the Uralic and Yeniseian languages". Would it be possible that he has been retested lately?

Before the publishing of the new Allentoft study this was one of the oldest I1 samples, dated to the Nordic Bronze Age (1396-1131 BCE). It appears significant that this individual is on the same line with NEO220 from Falköping. In the old forum I formulated the idea that its location on that sideline might indicate a minor role for the Falköping men in NBA. Now it looks like I-Y18697 may have played an important role in the early expansion of M253 in the Nordic Bronze Age inside Sweden. So why is it a sideline today? One possible explanation is that it represented a group that later got into a conflict with a competing line and was displaced. 

   

[MrI1]

Based on my notes from 2022 I think we’re still missing a few samples with decent coverage?

NEO 93: 1788 BCE; 1.90x coverage
Strøby Ladeplads, Denmark

NEO 261: 1945 BCE; 2.64x coverage
Sillvik, Sweden

It’s a shame that NEO875 is only listed as I-M253 but with a coverage of 0.18x my hopes weren’t that high for anything more precise.

[Strider99]

Based on my notes from 2022 I think we’re still missing a few samples with decent coverage?

NEO 93: 1788 BCE; 1.90x coverage
Strøby Ladeplads, Denmark

NEO 261: 1945 BCE; 2.64x coverage
Sillvik, Sweden

It’s a shame that NEO875 is only listed as I-M253 but with a coverage of 0.18x my hopes weren’t that high for anything more precise.

The low coverage of NEO875 sounds like a perfectly reasonable explanation for why they were unable to assign him further downstream than just M253. I suppose that could very well be the case for the samples located next to him in the Time Tree as well (Ängamöllan, Vasagård, RISE179, NEO227). What Kaltmeister mentioned about the Y18697 of NEO220 is interesting and could be of great importance, I truly hope that we'll be able to see the sampling get filled out even further in the future to see exactly what this might mean. Did Y18697 lose a clash against a neighbouring clan, or did other subclades by mere chance gain more prominence? Just how far north was L22 in the Bronze Age? Many questions are unanswered. 

With the higher quality of the genomes of NEO93 and NEO261 in mind, let us hope that FTDNA makes another attempt to analyze them. Or, that you Mr I1 get your hands on the BAMs! 

During 2022 and 2023 we have gotten a huge amount of new M253 samples, but I can't help but feel greedy for even more now. Malmström's/the Uppsala lab's new samples shouldn't be far away now, either. Although of course, we do not yet know if we can expect any M253 among those. Time will tell.

[JMcB]

I just got this message from Göran Runström:
“27 additional aDNA samples from Allentoft 2023 were uploaded just now. The new samples make it so that 9 out of 10 of the oldest I-M253 samples to date are from Allentoft's 2015 and 2023 studies”.
It could be a y-chromosome coverage issue? Lacking reads for certain base pair locations is different than having ancestral reads. I hope to be able to look at these samples myself one day but I’ve yet to find the BAM/BAI files for them. 
See: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-M253/tree
They have also reconsidered NEO220’s call. He is now being placed under I-Y18697.
See: https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-Y18697/tree

Thank you for keeping us updated, JMcB! It's very interesting to see that NEO875 does not appear to be DF29+.

It could be a y-chromosome coverage issue? Lacking reads for certain base pair locations is different than having ancestral reads. I hope to be able to look at these samples myself one day but I’ve yet to find the BAM/BAI files for them.

I was under the impression that everyone was getting them here:

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/browser/view/PRJEB64656

[MrI1]

I was able to look at the BAM files:

NEO220: DF29: Derived 1G
Y18697: Derived 1C

NEO875: Entire I-DF29 Branch: No Reads

[JonikW]

Just wanted to point this out to you from one of my Marlow Warlord posts yesterday. Something to look forward to and there must be a reasonable chance that he was I1, given his sword's link to Jutland. Time will tell and other haplogroups are available but the paper itself will surely serve us up some welcome I-M253...

EDIT: My first hyperlink doesn't look very obvious but it's in the word "this" in my first sentence above.

[MrI1]

I have a question for the I-Z141 folks. I can’t find poz643 from Beremiany, Ukraine on the Ftdna Time Tree or Ancient Connections. The study has been out for over 2 months. Am I missing something here? Did Ftdna overlook this sample or is it possibly not positive for I-Z141? Just wondering if you guys are aware of anything that I might be overlooking?

[JonikW]

I have a question for the I-Z141 folks. I can’t find poz643 from Beremiany, Ukraine on the Ftdna Time Tree or Ancient Connections. The study has been out for over 2 months. Am I missing something here? Did Ftdna overlook this sample or is it possibly not positive for I-Z141? Just wondering if you guys are aware of anything that I might be overlooking?

I'm not aware of anything, MrI1. Perhaps good old JMcB can reach out to them if he doesn't know already. He keeps a particularly close tab, as you know. I wonder whether FTDNA aspires to add every ancient sample because I can see that idea becoming unfeasible in time.

[JMcB]

I have a question for the I-Z141 folks. I can’t find poz643 from Beremiany, Ukraine on the Ftdna Time Tree or Ancient Connections. The study has been out for over 2 months. Am I missing something here? Did Ftdna overlook this sample or is it possibly not positive for I-Z141? Just wondering if you guys are aware of anything that I might be overlooking?

At the time I spoke to Goran about it (August 2nd), he said FT was calling POZ643 as Z141>CTS10937. He also mentioned that the paper would be out in a few weeks. So it’s possible it got over looked with all the other papers coming out around the same time. At least, that’s my guess. I’ll ask him about it tomorrow.

[JMcB]

I have a question for the I-Z141 folks. I can’t find poz643 from Beremiany, Ukraine on the Ftdna Time Tree or Ancient Connections. The study has been out for over 2 months. Am I missing something here? Did Ftdna overlook this sample or is it possibly not positive for I-Z141? Just wondering if you guys are aware of anything that I might be overlooking?

At the time I spoke to Goran about it (August 2nd), he said FT was calling POZ643 as Z141>CTS10937. He also mentioned that the paper would be out in a few weeks. So it’s possible it got over looked with all the other papers coming out around the same time. At least, that’s my guess. I’ll ask him about it tomorrow.

As it turns out, those samples will not be on the tree for a few weeks. As they have a lot of ancient papers to go through these days. Nothing has changed as far as POZ643 is concerned. They are still calling him as CTS10937. We’ll just have to wait a while before we see him on the tree.

[MrI1]

Thanks JMcB! I appreciate all the effort you put into this subject matter and it’s really cool that you’re able to get important answers so quickly.

[JonikW]

Thanks JMcB! I appreciate all the effort you put into this subject matter and it’s really cool that you’re able to get important answers so quickly.

Just want to second that MrI1. We hereby award JMcB with the Order of I-Z141, First Class. It's all much appreciated! Interesting too that they're feeling a bit of pressure. Understandable and I hope they manage to maintain momentum as the field grows.

[JMcB]

Thanks JMcB! I appreciate all the effort you put into this subject matter and it’s really cool that you’re able to get important answers so quickly.

Just want to second that MrI1. We hereby award JMcB with the Order of I-Z141, First Class. It's all much appreciated! Interesting too that they're feeling a bit of pressure. Understandable and I hope they manage to maintain momentum as the field grows.

Needless to say, it’s my pleasure. Although, I haven't really done anything. However, even though I haven’t really done anything, the idea of a badge sewn onto my jacket with the appellation: The Order of I-Z141, is very appealing! :-)

[Steam Highwayman]

Barely got comfortable in the last place before we're on the move again. Good to see everyone and JMcB definitely a First Class Member of the  Order of I-Z141.

Going to hijack the thread with some not so ancient I1 DNA. Neither my brother or I have had children to continue our tiny Y-DNA subclade but my cousin has stepped up to the plate and has ensured that our Y-DNA line will continue for another generation.

Apologies for the big photo - not sure how to. 

Ok, hijack over - back to ancient I1.