11-25-2023, 11:17 PM
Now that the thread Locating Proto Uralic was closed it might be a good idea to discuss the location of Pre Proto Uralic, for instance based on that what we know, or don't, of the lexical similarities between Uralic and other languages. For starters, Helimski mentions a rather interesting word here:
https://www.slm.uni-hamburg.de/ifuu/down...ad-uew.pdf
"[UEW 430] *sala ‘verstecken, verhehlen, stehlen; Dieb’ U (Janh. (10) *sala) (Samm.
*sala) Berlin 9. PTu *ta‡la- ‘to rob, plunder, destroy’ (see for details Räsänen VEWT 458;
Clauson 492; ESTYa III 135-137). The word has many derivatives, as e.g. Old Turkic talaš-
‘to fight, to argue, to quarreľ, talɨm ‘rapacious, audaciouś (DTS 528-529), and is borrowed
as Mong. tala- ‘to rob, plunder, destroy’. PSam *talä- ‘to steaľ (Janhunen SW 150)
from PUr *sala- ‘to stay hidden, to steaľ (Rédei UEW 430-431). Unlike some examples
cited above, this Uralic etymology raises no doubts (see Janhunen JSFOu 77: 222;
Sammallahti UL 540); its network of derivatives in Samoyedic is also big enough (Janhu-
nen SW 150-151). It is absolutely acceptable from the phonetic viewpoint to suggest a
borrowing (at a relatively early time) from Samoyedic into Turkic, but the idea encounters
semantic problems. The Samoyedic forms refer to the domain of everyday life, while PTu
*ta‡la- is known mostly as a military term. The- refore the suggested etymology must be
qualified as acceptable at best, and it will be reasonable to refrain from tentative comments
on the possible - potentially very intersting for a historian - backgrounds for such borro-
wing./ /Hu < Vg (Хел.)/ /NNB zu Juk \olo in UEW /882"
From a layman's point of view the word seems to be the same and might for instance be a sign of an East Siberian superstratum in Uralic, provided that Pre Proto Uralic was first spoken near Ural mountains. Other candidates? Uralic *kura ‘knife’ ~ Yukaghir *kire ‘knife’ ( Yakutia?) and Uralic *ńe̮lǝ ‘arrow’ ~ Tungusic *ńure ‘arrow’ ( Trans-Baikal/Amur?) were already mentioned by Jaska elsewhere.
https://www.slm.uni-hamburg.de/ifuu/down...ad-uew.pdf
"[UEW 430] *sala ‘verstecken, verhehlen, stehlen; Dieb’ U (Janh. (10) *sala) (Samm.
*sala) Berlin 9. PTu *ta‡la- ‘to rob, plunder, destroy’ (see for details Räsänen VEWT 458;
Clauson 492; ESTYa III 135-137). The word has many derivatives, as e.g. Old Turkic talaš-
‘to fight, to argue, to quarreľ, talɨm ‘rapacious, audaciouś (DTS 528-529), and is borrowed
as Mong. tala- ‘to rob, plunder, destroy’. PSam *talä- ‘to steaľ (Janhunen SW 150)
from PUr *sala- ‘to stay hidden, to steaľ (Rédei UEW 430-431). Unlike some examples
cited above, this Uralic etymology raises no doubts (see Janhunen JSFOu 77: 222;
Sammallahti UL 540); its network of derivatives in Samoyedic is also big enough (Janhu-
nen SW 150-151). It is absolutely acceptable from the phonetic viewpoint to suggest a
borrowing (at a relatively early time) from Samoyedic into Turkic, but the idea encounters
semantic problems. The Samoyedic forms refer to the domain of everyday life, while PTu
*ta‡la- is known mostly as a military term. The- refore the suggested etymology must be
qualified as acceptable at best, and it will be reasonable to refrain from tentative comments
on the possible - potentially very intersting for a historian - backgrounds for such borro-
wing./ /Hu < Vg (Хел.)/ /NNB zu Juk \olo in UEW /882"
From a layman's point of view the word seems to be the same and might for instance be a sign of an East Siberian superstratum in Uralic, provided that Pre Proto Uralic was first spoken near Ural mountains. Other candidates? Uralic *kura ‘knife’ ~ Yukaghir *kire ‘knife’ ( Yakutia?) and Uralic *ńe̮lǝ ‘arrow’ ~ Tungusic *ńure ‘arrow’ ( Trans-Baikal/Amur?) were already mentioned by Jaska elsewhere.