About Proto-Germanic

[JonikW]

Did the old Frisii of IA and Roman times ever spoke proto-Germanic?
Tentative answer: no.

Did the old NE Dutch of BA ever spoke pre-Germanic?
Tentative answer: yes.

In Koch (2020) this is stated about the Cimbri of Denmark:
"A block of early historical evidence pointing towards contact between speakers of Germanic and Celtic in the Late La Tène Iron Age centres on the documented activities of a group known as Cimbri."

I think this applies even more to the old Frisii. For this we can consult Peter Schrijver (2017), he states plainly that the Frisians of the Roman period were speaking North Sea Celtic, closely related to Brittonic and Gaulic. This only changed during the migration period with the influx of the Anglo-Saxons. According to Schrijver, Anglo-Frisian or North Sea Germanic was a language of Celts who tried to speak Anglo-Saxon Germanic. He bases this on the vowel system of Anglo-Frisian, which according to him shows a consistency with Celtic (Brittonic/Gaulic).

And where Koch in the case of the Cimbri: The recorded names of the Cimbri's leaders—Lugius, Boiorix, and Gaesorix—are all unambiguously Celtic. We also have the Frisian chieftains Mallorix and Verritus who visited Rome under Nero, 'which names make sense in Celtic' according to Schrijver.

This is IA and Roman times. But what about BA times? Mark that we go to the higher sandy grounds called Drenthe and Twente in the NE part. And exactly these names play a part in Schrijver's argumentation.

"A similar development odf *s to *h but with subsequent loss in the position between vowels may account for the Dutch county names Drenthe, older Threant (820 copy 10th century) from pre germanic *Tri-sant, which is strikinly similar to Romano-British Trisantona, which survives in British river names such as:Trent, Tarrant, Trannon. The meaning of this name, and therefore its etymology and Celticity, is unknown, but the existence of similarity formed Tuihanti (AD222-235, Künzel et al 1988, 353) the oldest form of the Dutch county named Twente, strongly suggest that they stem from compounds of the nummerals *dwi, 'two' and *tri, 'three', followed by an unknown word *sant. The development of the initial *d and *t of these numerals to t- and th- in Tuihanti and Threant, respectively, betrays the later Germanicization of these forms. The development of *s to *h is certainly not Germanic."

I stressed pre- Germanic because imo there is evidence that Drenthe was the most NW ern outpost of the Unetice koiné like I showed in a previous posting.

Then a hint of Kuhn's Nordwestblock (1962) comes into play. Wollfgang Meid 'evaluated' this theory in 1986. He stressed:

-  the close relationship to (pre) Italic
- *p- (and other shutter sounds) are partly not shifted in NW Germany names
- the existence of a -sí-suffix;
- apa in river names
- the suffix -andr-

The *p in particular has been preserved in West Germanic (English, Dutch) for intimate, vulgar words such as poop, pee, etc

Does this preclude a pre-Germanic? No. In addition to being the most northwestern outpost of the Unetice koiné, NE Netherlands in BA was also a mix of Single Grave Culture and Bell Beakers. Not only Kuhn and Meid but also Euler (2009, 2021) underlines the relationship of pre-Germanic with pre-Italic.

My assumption is that the area between Rhine and Weser has remained stuck in a kind of pre-Germanic groove for a long time,  may be in a kind of C-G Koch modus?   And that it did not participate in the Grimm law or the first Germanic sound shift! So it probably did not take part in the transition to a form of proto-Germanic (in IA). With regard to the IA/Roman period it is also important to note that the coastal area, or also called "terps" area, was pre-eminently oriented towards the Gallic and British areas. As later on the Gallo-Romans along the Rhine. Until the more northern North Sea areas that were populated by the Cimbri...and then the circle is complete again

Very interesting post. I continue to believe that we do have one piece of epigraphic evidence suggesting that a Germanic language was spoken in Roman period Twente, as part of the cultural package of locals who identified as "Germani." 

I make no claim beyond that statement with this post and agree with your view that the Anglo-Saxon influx changed the genetics of the region. I'm also not claiming that the contents of this post represent irrefutable, cast iron proof of any kind regarding Germanic languages in the area of the Netherlands. We are all free to make what we will of the inscription concerned, which belongs to the Roman period.

Some of you may remember my AG post on this a while back. The following is a lightly edited version of that, copied directly from the relevant entry I later made in my early Germanic sources doc (there are almost 100,000 words there now, incidentally):

Mars Thincsus, Hadrian's Wall, altar dedication (from a shrine dating from the mid-2nd to the early 4th century AD)

"Deo Marti Thincso et duabus Alaisiagis Bede et Fimmilene et N(umini) Aug(usti) Germ(ani) cives Tuihanti v(otum) s(olverunt) l(ibentes) m(erito)."

"To the god Mars Thincsus and the two Alaisiagae, Beda and Fimmilena, and to the Divinity of the Emperor the Germans, being tribesmen of Twenthe, willingly and deservedly fulfilled their vow."

"Mars Thincsus" from the inscription is Mars Thingsus (Mars of the Thing, the word for the Germanic assembly that survives in place names as far away as Iceland). We know that this god of the Thing is the war god Tiw (Týr in Norse mythology), who through "interpretatio romana" becomes the war god Mars in the Roman Empire. Týr and sometimes derivatives of the word Thing have given the name to Tuesday in many Germanic languages (Tuesday for Týr in one example, Dienstag for Thing in another), with dies Martis, the day of Mars, likewise being Tuesday for most Romance speakers.

Tuihanti is likely to be Twente in the Netherlands. Whatever the case, these are soldiers from a part of Germania within the empire, where the Alaisiagae were also worshipped, goddesses whose first followers may have stretched down to the old Belgic Celtic speaking regions. That their primary dedication of the altar was to the war god of the "Thing" and that they called themselves "Germans" and were most likely from Twente is worthy of note.