04-05-2024, 09:31 AM
(This post was last modified: 04-05-2024, 10:02 AM by ChrisR.
Edit Reason: reformat
)
I also looked again. I would revise my comments:
modern Trentino has a broad range of diversity, overlapping with both modern Veneto and Lombardy and as well Piemonte and Liguria and to a lesser degree Emilia.
But it is the "most North Italian" cluster as it has more nearness to Swiss_French, Swiss_German, (West) Austria.
ALP070 and ALP071 are indeed nearest to the Cimbri_Lessinia average, but it is hard to tell if they are from the Lusern(a) area and diversity, they could also be from the Ladin (bordering) area like Val di Fassa, where in the entrance of the valley there are a lot of Medieval German settlements/names. It might be reasonable to handle the two samples as "particular" but maybe not as proper outliers.
The Late Rhaeto-Romans (from Burgeis) interestingly are aven more diverse then the known Trentino samples and overlap with the Cisalpine Gauls (which overlap with other Gauls and the Etrusco-Latin-diversity)
The Italian_Notheast samples which also lack a desired more specific geographic positioning (Friuli?) are mostly between the Trentino-Veneto variance and Austria with shift also in direction of Slovenia, so like a "Southern equivalent" to South Tyroleans (and West Austria) with the Eastern+Germanic? shift, unless this shift was already present in the Rhaeto/Noric variance, but the Cenomani-Cis.Gaul LIA and Burgeis Rheato-Romance LA samples tell otherwise. Italy_Northeast as alexfritz already stated overlaps broadly with the Cimbri and 3 other German speaking isolates in NE Italy. In addition to ALP435 I do see also ALP220 with a more "pronounced" Eastern shift. I think splitting the Austria average at least in a West and East (and maybe South) average would be needed to get more insight. Unfortunately also here the lack of geographic origin detail does not allow that.
The main conclusion I have is: the Trentino area admixture after the LateAntiquity did not change much in totality despite having "particular" areas with visible shifts.
We can not yet reach satisfying conclusions about the rest of historic Tyrol and Austria as except for Burgeis AFAIK we do not have LateAntiquity samples which would allow a better analysis compared to older (LaTene/LIA) and younger (Germanic+Slavic, EMA) samples. So far it seems a consistent Eastern (+Northern?) shift is present compared to LIA (and Antiquity?) for the modern Austro-Bavarian speakers.
Having at least some modern Vinschgau/Venosta samples would be interesting.
modern Trentino has a broad range of diversity, overlapping with both modern Veneto and Lombardy and as well Piemonte and Liguria and to a lesser degree Emilia.
But it is the "most North Italian" cluster as it has more nearness to Swiss_French, Swiss_German, (West) Austria.
ALP070 and ALP071 are indeed nearest to the Cimbri_Lessinia average, but it is hard to tell if they are from the Lusern(a) area and diversity, they could also be from the Ladin (bordering) area like Val di Fassa, where in the entrance of the valley there are a lot of Medieval German settlements/names. It might be reasonable to handle the two samples as "particular" but maybe not as proper outliers.
The Late Rhaeto-Romans (from Burgeis) interestingly are aven more diverse then the known Trentino samples and overlap with the Cisalpine Gauls (which overlap with other Gauls and the Etrusco-Latin-diversity)
(04-05-2024, 02:17 AM)alexfritz Wrote: re-looking at the _Northeast Italians on G25
not even that far-out, infact very much in the area except for ALP435
if anything the German speaking isolates of the FVG (Sappada, Timau and Sauris) get alot of hits
The Italian_Notheast samples which also lack a desired more specific geographic positioning (Friuli?) are mostly between the Trentino-Veneto variance and Austria with shift also in direction of Slovenia, so like a "Southern equivalent" to South Tyroleans (and West Austria) with the Eastern+Germanic? shift, unless this shift was already present in the Rhaeto/Noric variance, but the Cenomani-Cis.Gaul LIA and Burgeis Rheato-Romance LA samples tell otherwise. Italy_Northeast as alexfritz already stated overlaps broadly with the Cimbri and 3 other German speaking isolates in NE Italy. In addition to ALP435 I do see also ALP220 with a more "pronounced" Eastern shift. I think splitting the Austria average at least in a West and East (and maybe South) average would be needed to get more insight. Unfortunately also here the lack of geographic origin detail does not allow that.
The main conclusion I have is: the Trentino area admixture after the LateAntiquity did not change much in totality despite having "particular" areas with visible shifts.
We can not yet reach satisfying conclusions about the rest of historic Tyrol and Austria as except for Burgeis AFAIK we do not have LateAntiquity samples which would allow a better analysis compared to older (LaTene/LIA) and younger (Germanic+Slavic, EMA) samples. So far it seems a consistent Eastern (+Northern?) shift is present compared to LIA (and Antiquity?) for the modern Austro-Bavarian speakers.
Having at least some modern Vinschgau/Venosta samples would be interesting.