03-25-2024, 06:58 AM
Kaltmeister:
Thanks for clarifying.
It is very probable that originally all different populations spoke different languages. During the time the Indo-European dialects spread to Northern Europe, there must have already been several local languages, possibly from several language families (distant “macrogroups” like WHG, EHG, and EEF at least spoke originally different language families). In some regions the older languages might have prevailed, in some regions the newcomer languages replaced them. There might have been several IE dialects which have not survived to the historical era. We must recognize the mosaic of ancient linguistic diversity and not to stare only at the languages which have survived until today.
Even if all these Scandinavian IBD clusters mainly continue the CWC ancestry, there are several options: (1) they might have represented the same IE language, (2) or different IE sister languages, (3) or some of them had preserved the earlier local language, (4) or some of them represented a language which spread from the outside only later. Based on genetic results, there is no method which could help us to determine which answer is true, because languages can spread without major genetic turnover.
Language shift is always a possibility, when two populations admix, but it is also possible without clear genetic admixture. Cultural contacts and endogamy are enough to enable an infiltration of a new language to the region, and how it fares after that is a matter of chance and luck. But the stronger the genetic influence, the more probable it is that the newcomer language replaces the earlier language.
Therefore, it is well possible that a new language spread with the East Scandinavian ancestry. The problem is that we have no certainty about which language was spoken by those East Scandinavians and which language by those South Scandinavians. But as the East Scandinavian ancestry spread to Norway toward 1600 BCE and to Denmark toward 1400 BCE, these are already associated with the Scandinavian Bronze Culture. During this era the Germanic lineage already appears to have been in Southern Scandinavia (widely spoken: including Den, SNor, SSwe), but it was not necessarily the only language present there. But as the expansion of the East Scandinavian ancestry is the last possible expansion there which could have spread the Germanic language, it perhaps did just that.
The Celtic influence to Germanic began during the last centuries of the 2nd millennium BCE at least in Southern Sweden (John Koch 2020), and the Paleo-Germanic influence to Saami and Finnic began around the same time, when these branches arrived in the coastal regions of Finland and Estonia respectively, where the Scandinavian Bronze Culture was already present. Therefore, it would be very difficult to claim that during this time Germanic was not yet in Scandinavia. But how early exactly it was there and where it arrived from, that we cannot say at the moment.
Quote:No, that is not what I mean - at least I am not focussed on a secondary emergence. My question aims on a general emergence from an older version, be it primary or secondary. It aims on the question if "South-Scandinavians" and "East-Scandinavians" might have spoken different languages and, for that, considered themselves to be two different ethnicities. [edit] When those "East-Scandinavians" moved to Denmark and layered Bell Beaker people, becoming "South-Scandinavians", it is in my opinion very likely that this process resulted in a language shift.
How comes you are so sure that the members of the "East-Scandinavian" cluster already spoke German in the Nordic Bronze Age? Because of the common features between Germanic and Uralic languages?
Thanks for clarifying.
It is very probable that originally all different populations spoke different languages. During the time the Indo-European dialects spread to Northern Europe, there must have already been several local languages, possibly from several language families (distant “macrogroups” like WHG, EHG, and EEF at least spoke originally different language families). In some regions the older languages might have prevailed, in some regions the newcomer languages replaced them. There might have been several IE dialects which have not survived to the historical era. We must recognize the mosaic of ancient linguistic diversity and not to stare only at the languages which have survived until today.
Even if all these Scandinavian IBD clusters mainly continue the CWC ancestry, there are several options: (1) they might have represented the same IE language, (2) or different IE sister languages, (3) or some of them had preserved the earlier local language, (4) or some of them represented a language which spread from the outside only later. Based on genetic results, there is no method which could help us to determine which answer is true, because languages can spread without major genetic turnover.
Language shift is always a possibility, when two populations admix, but it is also possible without clear genetic admixture. Cultural contacts and endogamy are enough to enable an infiltration of a new language to the region, and how it fares after that is a matter of chance and luck. But the stronger the genetic influence, the more probable it is that the newcomer language replaces the earlier language.
Therefore, it is well possible that a new language spread with the East Scandinavian ancestry. The problem is that we have no certainty about which language was spoken by those East Scandinavians and which language by those South Scandinavians. But as the East Scandinavian ancestry spread to Norway toward 1600 BCE and to Denmark toward 1400 BCE, these are already associated with the Scandinavian Bronze Culture. During this era the Germanic lineage already appears to have been in Southern Scandinavia (widely spoken: including Den, SNor, SSwe), but it was not necessarily the only language present there. But as the expansion of the East Scandinavian ancestry is the last possible expansion there which could have spread the Germanic language, it perhaps did just that.
The Celtic influence to Germanic began during the last centuries of the 2nd millennium BCE at least in Southern Sweden (John Koch 2020), and the Paleo-Germanic influence to Saami and Finnic began around the same time, when these branches arrived in the coastal regions of Finland and Estonia respectively, where the Scandinavian Bronze Culture was already present. Therefore, it would be very difficult to claim that during this time Germanic was not yet in Scandinavia. But how early exactly it was there and where it arrived from, that we cannot say at the moment.
~ Per aspera ad hominem ~
Y-DNA: N-Z1936 >> CTS8565 >> BY22114 (Savonian)
mtDNA: H5a1e (Northern Fennoscandian)