Z49>Z142>Z150>FGC12381, Y3140 > FGC12378, Y3142

[Mitchell-Atkins]

Started a blog to document research/discussions that were on anthrogenica...before it was known that genoplot had archieved the site.

Probably of interest to less than a handful of people, but at least the history of this branch has been saved, and hopefully future members can google and find it.

r-fgc12381.blogspot.com/2023/07/with-announcement-on-7252023-that.html


Going to repost pertinent info here.

Currently known ancient FGC12378 samples. 

R-FGC12378 in Zadar, Croatia in 178 AD
R-FGC47869 in Ibrany, Hungary ~975 AD
R-FGC47869 in Sirmium, Serbia ~1071 AD



My thinking has been that FGC12378> FGC47869> FGC12401 originated near the Rhine, North of the Alps, with the Italian/Hungarian FGC12378> FGC47869> FGC12401> BY5698> BY33575 line branching off this core group and heading east during the Hallstatt or La Tene period e.g. the Boii tribe; with other members of FGC12401> BY5698 and the FGC12401> FGC12384 line eventually moving North into Britain in the Late Iron age or Roman period e.g. Treveri auxiliaries.

Another possibility is during the Iron Age, both of these FGC12401 lines had moved from near the Rhine to the Pannonia region (includes present day Hungary and Northern Serbia)and arrived in Britain during the Roman period.


Then again, the reverse scenario could also be true.  A Gaulish Roman Auxiliary unit in Britain was transferred to Pannonia. 

In the 2nd century AD 20% of all Roman Military personnel were in Britain and Pannonia.  Undoubtedly there were personnel rotations between the 2 areas.  It is known that 2 Pannonian alae (cavalry) and 5 cohorts (infantry) served in Britain, the first arriving in 103 AD. www.jstor.org/stable/20186869

We know of a Celtic man from Durocortorum (Reims, France) was buried in Pannonia.

Cohors Secundae Pannoniorum – The Second Cohort of Pannonians

This was a five-hundred strong infantry unit from the province of Pannonia, the region of the modern Czech Republic. They are mentioned on the only inscribed stone recovered from the Beckfoot fort in Cumbria, where they possibly formed the late-Hadrianic garrison. Another undated stone mentioning the unit was found on Hadrian’s Wall between the forts at Housesteads and Great Chesters.

Roman Era sites in Northern and Southern England with potential links to Pannonian arrivals.
"Oxygen and strontium isotope evidence for mobility in Roman Winchester"
www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0305440309003136

“Cultural and ethnic identity in the Roman military: a study of the Roman cemetery at Brougham in Cumbria (MA dissertation)“
www.academia.edu/5766425/Cultural_and_ethnic_identity_in_the_Roman_military_a_study_of_the_Roman_cemetery_at_Brougham_in_Cumbria_MA_dissertation_
[url=http://redirect.viglink.com/?key=71fe2139a887ad501313cd8cce3053c5&subId=7331037&u=https%3A//r-fgc12381.blogspot.com/2023/07/with-announcement-on-7252023-that.html][/url]
Another reference for Pannonians in Roman Britain.

ERIC BIRLEY
PANNONIANS IN ROMAN BRITAIN
aus: Zeitschrift für Papyrologie und Epigraphik 73 (1988) 151–155

Quote from the above.

Coh. V Pannoniorum seems indicated by a lead seal from Brough-under

Stainmore/Verterae CVP (Cumberland and Westmorland Transactions n.s. XXXVI,

1936, p.118):

romaninscriptionsofbritain.org/inscriptions/2411.144

Brough-under Stainmore is the location of the earliest known patrilineal ancestor of FGC12384...William Adamthwaite married there in 1769.

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Quote from the old anthrogenica thread related to this thread

Originally Posted by MitchellSince1893
If we approach the dating from known ancient dna dates:
From some source (Reich spreadsheet?), 
I have I0805, in Quedenburg, Germany is Z142>Z51, Z55>L562, and is dated to 2302 BC 
and PRU004 is Z142>FGC22963, FGC22969>FGC22940, in Prague, 2314 BC.
Both are 3 SNPs down from Z142 and have similar dates (2302-2314 BC)
If these dates and calls are correct then Z142>Z12222, Z150, Z26720 would also be 3 SNPs down from Z142 and may be similarly dated to around 2308 BC...
What if we went back and used ancient dna and 83 years per SNP from Z142>Z12222, Z150, Z26720 to FGC12401 SNP block?
Using the above ancient dna estimated starting point of 2308 BC
83 years/SNP x 20 SNPs (6+1+13) = 1660 years. 2308 BC - 1660 =
FGC12401 TMRCA 648 BC
FGC12401>FGC47875's TMRCA 565 BC
FGC12401>FGC47875>BY5698 branch TMRCA 482 BC
FGC12401>FGC47875>BY5698>BY33575, BY33576, BY33590 TMRCA 233 BC


If we approach this from present to the past (reverse of the above approach), the average number of SNPs from present day testers to FGC12401 is 32 SNPs. This was derived from:
1. FGC12401>FGC47875 average is 34 SNPs (BY5698 branch avg is 28 SNPs (34 & 22 SNPs for the 2 branches), FGC12384 branch avg is 40 SNPs (42 & 38 SNPs for the 2 branches. Average of 28 & 40 is 34 SNPs)
2. FGC12401>FTD126929 is 30 SNPs
3. Average of 34 & 30 SNPs is 32.
32 SNPs x 83 years per SNP = 2656 years, minus 1950 AD = FGC12401 TMRCA: 706 BC.
So going from known ancient dna to recent results is 648 BC, and going from present day to ancient results is 706 BC for FGC12401. The average of these 2 results is 677 BC.
FGC12401 TMRCA = 677 BC (British, Hungarian & Italian present day samples)
FGC12401>FGC47875 TMRCA = 594 BC (British, Hungarian & Italian present day samples)
FGC12401>FGC47875>BY5698 branch TMRCA = 511 BC (British, Hungarian & Italian present day samples)
FGC12401>FGC47875>BY5698>BY33575, BY33576, BY33590 TMRCA 262 BC (Hungarian & Italian present day samples)

I feel the above dates are probably closer to the truth than the current FTDNA estimates which are ~250-425 years older
Here is FTDNA’s current date for FGC12401.  The image below updates but today it says 1030 BCE or about 350 years older than my estimate of 677 BC.
I took my estimated dates above and applied them to FTDNA's Discover Time Tree for the FGC12401 branch. 

This chart is Britain centric, but note the Italo-Hungarian BY5698>BY33575 branch with a TMRCA in the La Tene period.  The brother BY5698>BY12085 branch ends up in Britain.  Their shared BY5698 TMRCA is late Hallstatt. 

Also FGC12401>FTD16929 has a TMRCA ~150 AD (Roman Era) with present day representatives from England and Switzerland.



As previously noted, there are presently no ancient FGC12401 samples and so far no U152 samples in Britain are older than 400 BC. So this branch could have entered Britain in the Iron Age, Roman Era, and/or the Middle Ages. My best guess is Roman Era arrival.

To narrow down when this branch entered Britain, it would be helpful to get any ancient samples, especially from the 1500 year gap between 250 BC to 1250 AD